Lithophanes

[drodda]

I finally have finished my first attempt at a lithophane. Just thought I would post links to show that all these questions that I ask sometimes gets digested and tried. Thanks for all the help on my questions.


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5130

The lithophane is 16" x 13" oval and the frame is 21" x 18"

Cut into 1/4" corian
Thanks,

Dave

[billp]

Dave,
Exceptional detail! Particularly for a first try!!!
What's next? Lithophane chips to go with your tables? (hint,hint...)

[paul_z]

WOW !!! SIMPLY STUNNING !!!

What did you use? What were the settings? Can you show us the original photo?

[rookie432]

Dave,,,
Fantastic! Beautiful subject matter too. Love to know more details like Paul.
Bill

[stickman]

Dave,

How about some close-up detail from the back side?

How long did it take to cut it?

Looks great!

Jay

[ed_lang]

WOW!
This is the best one I have seen to date!

I too would like to know the details of how you pulled this one together.

I have not cut one yet but if I thouoght I could get close to that, I would start cutting tonight.

[daniel]

Great Lithopane,
I've been using 1/4 inch acrylic, and I suspect that the corian would look even better.

How does one find 1/4 inch thick corian. The local corian distributer here told me he could only get 1/2 inch thick pieces...?

[drodda]

Daniel.
They all can get 1/4" but most don't stock it. It costs about the same as the 1/2" corian anyhow so I just use my shopbot to turn my 1/2" corian to 1/4" corian and then start cutting the lithophane.


I do not have all my settings with me at work so I will have to check my notes this weekend.

Thanks for all the help on this. I do know that I used a 1/8" ball nose to rough out and a 1/32" ball nose to finish the cuts with my PC router. It took about 8 hours to cut.

Here is the original photo that I scanned into the computer.


5131

[billp]

Try to find guys that do shower stall installations. THEY use 1/4 "Corian.Since it comes in 12 foot lengths, and shower stalls are usually around 8 ft tall, they always have extra pieces they can't use. Also check counter top guys as it is sometimes used for backsplashes.
If all else fails there's a guy in NJ who was selling chunks of it at my Camp last year, and he has a LOT of it in his inventory. He's the same guy I buy my pod/puck materials from;
http://www.nappyproducts.com/

[drodda]

I used the Vectric PhotoVcarve software to cut this. Don't let the price fool you. This is a very powerful little software. I was very amazed at how easy it was to get going with. Tony and Brian are always right here to lend a helping hand. I would highly recomend them to all shopbot users. Even if they are on the wrong side of the Pond?

[3d_danny]

Hi Dave,

Very nice work.

"Even if they are on the wrong side of the Pond?"

I had to laugh....They probably say the same about us.....

Dan

[mikejohn]

What do you mean "probably"?
Don't forget from whence your founding fathers came!!
..........Mike

[bleeth]

They came here because they were smart enough to realize they were on the wrong side of the pond!!!

Fantastic Lithophane.

Dave

[keith]

Hi Dave,

You said you might be able to get some of the settings you used to create the litho. I'd like to hear what you tried. I've been cutting 1/4 corian with 1/16 ball, 200 in/min, SS 13,000 RPM, stepover 0.003. Problem is some of my results are blurry. I can't figure out if it's the original size of the picture, settings, ramping moves, or what that may do this. Any thoughts? Thanks

[jumbaugh]

Keith,

You and I are using identical materials, bits and settings... I have had the problem with blury images but In my case I can trace it back to the original photo.. In photo shop additional contrast, and one pass through with the sharpening function seemed to correct the problem. For what it's worth... hope this helps

[wcsg]

What kind of Corian is best to use. My supplier tells me there are different kinds. Frosted, textured, etc etc

[billp]

Erik,
You'll want a "solid" color, with NO "waves", textures, or other patterns internally imbedded. They will actually show up in your final product. I use the solid "white", or "bone" most of the time, as textured faces are not particularly flattering...

[wcsg]

Thx Bill!!!

[rick_woodward]

Dang thats great ! But 8 hrs... Not exactly commercially viable ? Seems it would need to sell over $300 ? Please correct me. I would love to be producing litho's of wildlife at a high rate and resolution. he he. Has any one tried casting reproductions? This really turns me on i havent tried it yet, but, ohhhh ! If i could make money doing it.... My email is rcarves@hotmail.com (mailto:rcarves@hotmail.com) if drodda or Bill or anyone cares to enlighten me further. i'd like to hear more input. thanks for posting Dave.

[drodda]

Sorry but I have not been following the Shopbot forum as of late. Been busy trying to get some projects off the ground.

The Litho posted was a very large one 16" x 13" and posed two marketing problems.

First was time to cut it and second was a cost effective way to backlight it. I am still working on both these issues but this does seem to be the hurdle to getting these commercially viable.

Like many great ideas Marketing these are also a very hard thing to do. Since posting this I have done over a dozen and have given all away to very delighted people. Just no money coming in from them. So if you have any good ideas on marketing I would be delighted to hear it also. Time and material cost is what is driving these into a range that is hard to sell these at.

[handh]

Dave,
I think that you did a awesome job on the lithopanes. I was thinking the same thing about being able to market them and actually make a profit from them and it got me to thinking that one way you might be able to sell something like this would be to get in contact with your local photography studio and see if you could do a sample for them to put in their showroom. Not everyone is going to spend the bucks for one but for the very special occasions like a wedding or a anniversary people might would pony up. If you put this is a nice frame and could figure out a way to light it, man it would look great at the wedding. Just a suggestion.

[drodda]

Here is an example of another one that I have done since the first one.


5132

This one was for a friend whos father passed away recently.

Dave

[terryd]

Dave,
I know it may sound morbid but your last post with the litho of Allen L. Martin would be a great sales pitch delivered by a funeral director. Would be a good match with the current trend towards closed casket funerals and cremations.. Doing the burn boxes is lucrative enough but adding this $300 +/- MEMORIUM especially if it machines while you sleep. 3 or 4 a week is some serious change for time wasted sleeping...? Just a thought.

Terry

[drodda]

Nothing morbid about making money. We are currently looking into the very idea that you have posted.

Only problem is getting them done by the time the funeral takes place. You would have to move very quickly after notice of the purchase to deliver by the visitation. It's hard to get a good quality photo from the family during this time of grief also.

You are right on on the price point though.

[Brian Moran]

Rick,
quote:Has any one tried casting reproductions?
Many of the old lithophanes which were originally produced in porcelain were cast. See
http://www.theporcelaingarden.com/history.htm for an interesting description of the original process and also some of the problems.

Brian.

[burchbot]

Dave wrote
Only problem is getting them done by the time the funeral takes place. You would have to move very quickly after notice of the purchase to deliver by the visitation. It's hard to get a good quality photo from the family during this time of grief also.
With more and more people planing their own funerals and funeral home are encouraging it. Getting a good photo may not be that hard. These kind of people very well may have a picture picked out for the family to use when the time comes. For the people that are planing their funeral down to the last detail they may order a memorial before they die.
$ 300,00 seems on the light side for the quality of work you do .But you do say you will be sleeping when you do it.
Dan

[mikejohn]

One off Lithophanes may be good business, but going in for multiple reproductions, and there is competition.
http://www.nfvproducts.com/silhouette_lithophanes.htm
No way can you compete on those prices.

............Mike

[drodda]

Mike,

You are comparing a 2"x3" nightlight to a 8"x10" custom one off. If you prorate out the price then the ones you show cost $373.33.

Plus I don't think many people will be interested in buying a copy of someone elses grandpa.

Dave

[bill.young]

I came across a web site a while ago that had cut lithophane molds and was casting them in white chocolate. The picture on the site looked surprisingly good with a light behind it...

[mikejohn]

Dave, I said One off Lithophanes may be good business!!!
Unless I am reading it wrong, the lithophanes on that website were 3.5" x 4" @ $23.95, with 'prorates' to $136.75.
Elsewhere on the web similar are for sale for $20. Probably Chinese (after all, they invented porcelain lithophanes
)
Rick said above "I would love to be producing litho's of wildlife at a high rate and resolution. he he. Has any one tried casting reproductions? "
It was for this poster I showed the site for cast reproductions.

I find personal one-offs are always great for the Shopbot. Of course, the downside is every sale has to be a new one. Its when you come up against mass production the small man doesn't have a cat in hells chance.
..........Mike

[drodda]

Mike,
I stand corrected. Did not read the size just guessed as I have looked at these for awhile and they come up on Ebay for small ones. Your math is probably closer.

[gerald_d]

To what extent may we discuss the potential market for lithopanes? I don't understand the appeal for them in these times.

[patricktoomey]

I have a question that I swear was posted by someone else earlier but then disappeared. If the lithophane is cut from behind, then couldn't you get the same effect by printing the picture on a laser or inkjet printer onto a plastic transparency sheet and then sticking that to the back of a 1/4" piece of Corian? Is there a visible difference or some sort of depth or dimensionality due to the design being carved that you wouldn't get with a print? It would seem to me that by printing it in color, say a nice dithered emboss effect in Photoshop to make it orange around the edges, you could give it a glazed porcelain look or the look of an old photograph. Some hint of the color shade should make it through the Corian. If 1/4" is too thick you could always cast your own very thin sheets of material since you can buy the adhesive cartridges which work for casting parts or sheets. You can even buy the resin and hardeners in bulk to make your own larger parts or sheets. I've done this with black and white logos in Corian counter tops in the past for commercial jobs. We never carved anything we just cut a pocket in the back of the top to get the material down to about 1/8", masked it off and sprayed the logo with a template and black spray paint. Then we filled the pocket with clear resin and hardener and underlit it. That always worked fine so I'm wondering if a photograph shouldn't work the same.

Any ideas?

[drodda]

Patrick,

The corian is cut from the top and it is not smooth to the viewer. You can see the carving from the top. The carving also gives you a 3D look when viewed with backlight if done properly. The contrast of the carving gives you a depth not just a projection of the image.

Gerald,

Once you see one of these in person you won't be asking this question. The WOW factor blows away anything I have done on the Bot.

Just My 3 cents,

Dave

[patricktoomey]

Dave,

That makes more sense to me but I swear other people have been talking about carving them in the back which made no sense to me. Now that I know it's carved in the front I understand. I'll have to give it a try with some scrap Corian. Most of mine is dark colors but I'm sure I have some white around somewhere. Have you ever heard of anyone doing some sort of color print on the back face to give it an added effect maybe around the edges of objects or just a gradient fill around the edge of the panel? Maybe I'll try that too and post some pictures (if it works).

Thanks for the clarification

[billp]

I've been carving lithophanes for a few years, and here are some thoughts which may answer some of the questions listed above.
The real "Wow" factor with them is when they are brought from their "dormant" stage to become backlit. It is in that instant that people realize just how amazing they are. The usual reactions at most trade shows are; "Oh my god",or "Holy s---"
They are SO different from most other products that they command attention.
I have tried working with photographers in the past, and had little success. One school photographer even threatened to sue me, claiming that he owned all of the images he had taken at a specific school.
The contrast of the image is what determines it's success. And therefore the backlighting of them is critical. This is why it's SO difficult to mass produce different images. The distance between the back of one image will work fine, but if the next image has a different contrast, that same distance will genrate either a "hot spot" or a muddied effect. There ARE some flat paneled, low voltage sources which are even thinner than the Corian, but to date they have been expensive. I know of at least one Shopbotter who had discovered a foreign source of these panels and was supposedly looking into becoming a distributor for them.
I have had much better luck selling them in commercial applications than to individuals. They are excellent for trade shows, particularly when a timer is used to show the difference in the "on/off" positions.They can then also be made larger, and a light box using standard flourescent bulbs will work very well.
The largest lithophane I have seen was done by Bob Dodd. He used a photo of the Manhattan skyline and carved a 10 foot long lithophane for a family who had a patio "'view which they hung over their patio door so they could see a "before/after" view from one sitting position. Bob is also known for cutting what I think has been the most difficult lithophane to date; a 360 degree scaled model of the Leaning Tower of Pisa, out of a piece of 8" diameter PVC pipe (picture below...).
Colored materials don't work very well,unless you find something close to a "flesh"tone. You have to remember that when you do ANY image of people you are selling to their ego as well as anything else. I have done numerous "surgeries"in both Artcam Pro and Photoshop to make the clients happy (including rhinoplasties, chin tucks, and dermabrasions...). Get GOOD with Photoshop if you want to make good lithophanes. You can change your contrast, edit dust bunnies,(which the Shopbot will happily carve otherwise), and make the image sharper.
They can be incorporated into cabinets, door transoms, etc. adding value to an existing piece.
If brides (and their Mothers..) will wait weeks for a wedding album, think of HOW happy they will be to get a lithophane back in a few days...
Pets, pets, pets......
Yes lithophanes take a loooooong time to cut. But most Shopbotters don't have their machines booked 40 hours a week anyway. Think of this as a good, (and easy) way to make your "down time" profitable. If the machine would be idle otherwise then this is a way to generate some new business
opportunities.
HAVE SAMPLES READY ! People can't order what they can't see.....(A picture of a lithophane is NOT the same thing..).
And by the way, this is an excellent way to see just how flat your table REALLY is.....
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[patricktoomey]

Bill,

That is some great info, I appreciate it.

Good point about the flat table, I would need to do a little work there to carve a big piece.

That PVC pipe thing is VERY interesting since I just got my indexer running. Do you know of anyone else who has done any work with PVC like that? I'd love to see more examples if anyone has them.

[terryd]

Dave and Dan,
Great minds must think alike. While I was making deliveries and networking (aka kissing A**) I stopped in and asked the local funeral home owner about the idea and the preplanned funeral angle. He was so interest we went to lunch in his Mercedes SK600. He owns 4 homes within 10 minutes of each other and says that he still cannot keep up with the demand???? He wants to give it a whirl but the presentation package must be top notched. Professional brochures , samples of at least three styles and three day turn around. This would only apply to preplanned funerals therefore it would be possible to have the photos many months in advance......got me thinking.....got to go now I think I hear my wife sobbing again...

Terry

[billp]

Patrick,
I think that the cylindrical lithophane idea was Bob's idea, and to date no one else has given it a shot. Be warned that it not only depends on YOUR expertise, it also means that you need to find a truly ROUND piece of PVC pipe which apparently is not an easy thing to do...
Terry,
Another angle to approach the funeral director with is the idea of using the "Face Wizard" from Artcam Pro, and cutting a profile of the deceased's face in HDU foam, and then coat it with some of the Sculpt Nouveau Bronze/Copper water based coating. You can generate a file from a photo in minutes, carve it in less than an hour, and coat it in another hour. It is an exterior product. By the way I also delved into this possibility awhile back and learned that there is a "protocol" regarding the way faces are displayed by mortuaries, cemetaries, etc. Men always face in one direction, and women the other. This may vary on a state to state (as well as marital status basis...).
Daniel,
If you want to get .25" Corian you should try the guys who do shower stall installations,or backsplashes for kitchens. Corian is sold in 12 foot lengths, and most shower stalls are no more than 8 feet tall, therefore they have "extra" pieces in their shop. BUY the first piece and take a photo of someone in the shop. Do a lithophane of them, and bring it back to the shop as a gift. You should have NO problem getting any more pieces...
To All,
Somewhere along the Camp trail I was told by a 'Botter that he simply went to the Corian distributor in his area and signed a document that stated he was NOT going to use the material for counter tops, etc. This allowed him to purchase the material without having to take their "3 day course" ($1,500 I believe...). There are also people who have a variety of sizes available for sale for those who can't find a shop in their area...( www.nappyproducts.com (http://www.nappyproducts.com) )

[drodda]

I was one of the lucky ones that met Bill P. the weekend that I picked up my bot at the factory. If you have not had the chance to meet Bill in person I highly reccomend it. My wife and I spent all our breaks trying to absorb some of the knowledge spilling from Bill during the stay in Durham.

Bill is like a sponge that is way too full. You can't help but catch Shopbot Fever when you are next to him as you are getting soaked by the knowledge spilling out of him like water. Every time we have found ourselves in a need for clearity my wife always reminds me WWBD. (what would Bill do?) I have emailed him many times over the last year and he always seems to point me in the right direction.

With that said I would like to take a moment and THANK him for all the advice and ideas that he has shared with me and the time he has taken to clear up the cloudy sometimes impossible ideas that I have bounced off him.

Thanks Bill and keep up the great work!

Dave

[drodda]

I buy my corian directly from a local dealer by the sheet now. I did not have to sign anything but my check and they even sell me the epoxy and application tools to fasten two pieces together. They have given me many great tips on how to polish and care for the stuff also. The idea of the gift to the owner of the shop is also a very good idea to get in on his good side. The 1/4" corian in my area only comes in 8 ft sheets and the 12 foot 1/2" sheet is actually cheaper by the foot so I just use the 1/2" since it is cheaper. I know of another person who actually slices the 1/2" stuff on a band saw to get twice the material out of one piece. I am not that ambitious as of yet and I only have a small band saw that will not do a large piece. If anyone is looking for small pieces of corian and they can't get it in their area I would be happy to send you a piece if you cover expenses. The white is getting harder to find in fall off since most people want the exotic colors these days.

[mikejohn]

Two points on Bill's long post above.
If you purchase photographs from a photographer, whether by them 'selling' to you like a schools photograph, or you commissioning the picture, they own the copyright. If you commission the pictures you own the publishing rights.
In either case, you can not reproduce the pictures without the permision of the photographer. Of course, taking pictures from the net usually infringes copyright.
2nd point. If the Shopbot would otherwise be lying idle, any money made above material costs, and file making time, is money you wouldn't have anyway. If you could safely cut lithophanes whilst you are asleep, then what is the true cost?


...........Mike

[gerald_d]

Is there any difference in appeal between a traditional 3D lithopane (slowly cut with a ballnose) on the one hand, and a PhotoVCarve "2.5D" lithopane (faster cut with a sharper bit) on the other?

(Patrick, another version of my question did disappear)

[drodda]

There is no difference in the two examples that you are asking about. there is not such thing as a 3d litho. they are all cut 2.5d and the lighting gives it a 3D look. The PhotoVcarve is the way I am cutting mine and it is not really any faster than Using Artcam except that I still have the $7350.00 in my pocket that I would not have had with the Artcam purchase.

To be fare I will also say that this is only if you are wanting to cut only lithophanes. Artcam has it's good points and does much more than Lithos.

Learning curve on PhotoVcarve = 5 Minutes
Learning curve on Artcam =Much more than 5 min

Gerald,

You know Big brother is watching your every move.

[burchbot]

Hi all
One thing about funerals to remember is they are for the living and often is the last time they will be able to show their love for that person. Money isn’t much of a issue in this situation. If you can provide a lasting one of a kind memorial of their loved one that shows how they feel. Well it’s hard to even put a price on that.
Dan

[bleeth]

Thoughts on Geralds post above:
A market for Lithophanes is definately out there. Like any other "special" craft item it's as much in the marketing as the product. I've had quite a few orders for lithos as family presents for Christmas, etc. and mostly the pictures used were amateur snaps. The "wow" factor previously mentioned is a good one and I would expect that if one were really trying to make it a business more show and tell and word of mouth marketing would be required. If you wanted to avoid going the personal sales route then advertising in pet, parenting, bridal, military, etc. magazines could be a good tool. However, due to the length of time to produce a good litho actually earning a net living from it would probably be tough and if you got too many orders after a while it could easily eat into how you really earn a living. On the other hand a small machine dedicated to lithos only would be fairly inexpensive to build and could then run in the shop all day long with little assistance as a "bonus buck" provider. Dedicating a full size bot to cutting portrait lithos though seems like a waste of resources.

[davidp]

Sorry to come late to this discussion, however I must disagree about the comment that Lithopanes cut with ArtCam are similar to a photoVcarve. They are not even a similar process and produce totally different effects. The only similarity between the two is the original photo and the fact that they can both be cut on the shopbot. In every other way they are totally different. It depends on what result you are after as to what process you use. They both have their place in the arsenal.

Regards,
David

[Brian Moran]

David,
I think the confusion here is partly due to the fact that many people don't realise that you can cut 'ArtCAM style' lithophanes with PhotoVCarve as well as the 'PhotoVCarve' style images. The superb lithophane at the top of this thread was cut by Dave Rodda using PhotoVCarve as was the 'In Loving Memory' lithophane half way down the thread.

The last tutorial on this page shows the process for creating lithophanes with PhotoVCarve
http://www.vectric.com/WebSite/Vectric/support/support_vcw_tutorials.htm#pvc_tutorials

Regards

Brian

[gerald_d]

Since I am the bloke who asked about the difference in the first place, maybe I must explain what I meant....

For the "traditional 3D lithopane (slowly cut with a ballnose)" the various tool passes would overlap. ie. the step-over distance would be a lot smaller than the tool diameter.

For the "PhotoVCarve "2.5D" lithopane (faster cut with a sharper bit)" the toolpasses will not overlap and the original flat top surface of the material is left between the passes.

As Brian pointed out, PhotoVCarve is not restricted to the second, fast, method. It can also do what Artcam does for the first, slow, method. What I meant to imply is that PhotoVCarve gives the second option - and I was interested in the "market appeal" of the 2 methods vs. each other. Sorry if I dumbed down PhotoVCarve by using it in the method description.

[drodda]

David,

There is only one way to cut a lithophane. Either with Photo V carve or Artcam. You cut them with a stepover of usually somewhere around 5% to 20% depending on the amount of detail you want. If you are not overlapping and cutting the White the deepest then you are etching a photo not cutting a lithophane. Etch 1/4" corian and you will not see much light through it. You have to carve the image deep into the material for the lithophane effect to show when backlighing is applied. You use the exact same tooling that you use with artcam. Like I have said before PhotoVcarve is one really useful software for the very modest price.

The process of carving (etching) a photo in wood or metal is not refered to as a lithophane by Vectric for their software.

Dave

[drodda]

Here is a picture of the same litho without the backlight. This might clear things up a bit as for the confusion.

5134

[mikejohn]

Although it's not a Lithophane as such, can you use Geralds "photocarve 2.5D", backlight it, and get a pleasing photographic effect?

..............Mike

[jimmya]

Lithophane files made, any size $25

jimmya@charter.net (mailto:jimmya@charter.net)