Router bits

[phil_o]

I'm still having a problem with fine point bits breaking on z-zeroing with the z-zero plate. I changed the file from jog to move. That helped. I'm wondering if better bits would prove to be more durable. I've been using inexpensive bits. With the exception of this particular problem the bits have performed well.

[paco]

Curious; how do they exactly failed/break? Is it carbide? Is it chipping or is the carbide tips is gotten removed as whole?

[billp]

Phil,
On one of my home made zeroing plates I used a piece of copper computer circuit board as the "top"piece. This way when the bit comes down it hits the softer copper, and spares them from being shattered...
I backed the circuit board with the cover from an electrical switch box so it would have the weight to stay in place on the table..

[phil_o]

The point of the carbide bit breaks off when it hits the zero plate.

[beacon14]

what z speed are you using? Does your z-zero routine set a z-move speed or does it just use the current speed? It seems like slowing the speed way down, and using keyboard control to position the bit just above the plate before zeroing would help.

You can make a copy of the z-zero routine with a slower z move speed, and make a separate "custom cut" for that new file, and use that one for the smaller bits.

Just how fine are these bits that are breaking?

[phil_o]

I changed the zero routine ( C 2 command from the keyboard ) from J (jog) to M (move). The bits are very fine point bits - 60 degree V-bit and point roundover bits.

[gerald_d]

This (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/29/5465.html) is where Phil first posted about his problem.

[robtown]

Phil, which version of the control software are you using? Not too long ago I switched from the DOS version to Windows version, one of the first things that I noticed was the z-zero routine moves much slower and touches off much "gentler" than previously (in the DOS ver).

[beacon14]

OK, I re-read the earlier post which Gerald cited. (I remembered it was there, but being lazy I figured Gerald could find it more easily than I
)

It seems that Phil doesn't set (or know how to set) the move speed within the file.

Phil,

if you will insert the following line before the line where you changed the JZ to MZ:

MS,,.06

This will change the Z move speed to 1/16 inch per second. I suggest you start no more than 1/4 to 1/2 inch above the zero plate or it could take a while. See if this is a little kinder to your bits.

Then, just before the end of the file, insert the following line:

MS,,.5

(or substitute an appropriate value for your z move speed instead of the .5).

There is a way to capture the current z move speed value, then reset to that value before ending the file, but I can't find the list of system variables that includes move speeds (Gerald?), and apparently some system variables have changed, so I don't want to mislead anyone.

[mikejohn]

What about having a small metal 'tray' or shallow 'box' of known depth, fill it full (and I mean full to the brim)with soft solder.
When the solder gets pock-marked, re-melt it, topping up if necessary.
but don't forget I have yet to receive my ShopBot, so may be off target
.........Mike

[phil_o]

You're right, I haven't solved the problem. The suggestions made here have helped but I'm still having occasional breakage.
I couldn't find the origonal thread I started so I started a new one. Sorry for the confusion.
One question that hasn't been answered is "will better quality bits be less prone to breakage?" I've been buying mine from this source. http://www.woodline.com/Scripts/default.asp

[bleeth]

Phil: To answer that question-I suggest you upgrade your bits to Whiteside at the least. There is a lot of info on the forum on bits and it will take some time to absorb it all. Generally CNC machines require a better grade of carbide and architecture than the average router bit manufacturer supplies.

Dave

[gerald_d]

Phil, with respect, I think that you are wasting your time by looking into different bits to solve a zeroing problem. I personally don't think that you will see much difference between different manufacturers for breaking tips.

If you have a good ground connection from the bit, logically you have to slow down your approach speed even further. Check that the collet is properly grounded (maybe use a temp. clip + lead) and keep on tuning the approach speed.

[paco]

Phil,
I second Gerald on this;

-do you feel you master the z_zero routine to make the suggested change? We can continue to help on this...

-if you make different testing with your Z-plate; like tapping the bit a couple of time with the plate to see that the "led" on the control software display show the contact each time you tap it... while touching the bit with the plate; testing good connection on the related wires, might be interesting to see if there is resistance in between... and maybe holding the z-plate with your hand then run the routine and feel the contact; is it pushing some further or seem very sensitive... keep the stop switche handy!!

I zero 60° V bit and 7° often without any problem and my Z zero routine is modified to do it quite fast on the first plunge... so I assume that you should'nt have any problem yourself... keep us informed.

[bleeth]

I'm about to cut out a pile of 6/4 Mahog and would prefer a smaller diameter and cleaner cut than the "normal" 1/2" diameter solution. Anyone have a specific source and bit suggestion? (Hopefully without breaking the bank)

Dave

[srwtlc]

Dave,

Check out Onsrud. They have a 3/8" in a heavy duty series that has worked well for me. I don't know the number right off, but I can find it if you want.

Scott

[bleeth]

Scott: From what I can see the Onsrud wood cutters at 3/8D cap out at 1 1/4 CEL. Maybe I missed the one you are talking about.

Dave

[Brady Watson]

Dave,
Just about any straight 3/8" bit will put a nice finish on that mahogany...However, you will see the stepdown marks on the profile. So...offset the vectors to the outside about .015 or so and cut them by stepping down the bit, let's say .375" at a time. Then go back in and do a full depth pass on the original vectors to get a nice clean edge. There is really no reason why you couldn't do this will a 1/4" bit as well, since you'd be doing a cleanup pass. I get 1/4" upcut spirals that have 1.5" CL. I believe they are about $16 ea in carbide.

I believe I posted somewhere on here how to do bridges using PartWizard. The tabs would hold the pieces together while you are doing your profiles, unless you have another strategy in mind.

-Brady

[srwtlc]

Dave,

Sorry, I see that now that I looked at mine (52-330 and 52-924). If it's a situation that can justify it , I have had a spin back or relief cut just enough to allow for the needed depth while still having enough for the collet to hold it (still making multiple passes as Brady suggested). If you get a few of them then the price isn't as bad.

You might be better off to find Brady's supplier. That's a pretty good price!

Brady, do they last?

Scott

[Brady Watson]

Scott,
I buy 90% of my tooling from Oberg Bros Industrial Supply in Maple Shade, NJ. THEY sell to MSC...and I haven't found better pricing anywhere. They ship all over the country.

The majority of tools that I buy are end mills, not router bits (they don't sell router bits)...but they are all carbide, and identical in every way to my much higher cost Onsrud bits that I bought...side by side, you cannot tell the difference. They also offer the same bits with various coatings as well.

-Brady

[rookie432]

Brady,
Boy do I feel silly.

I knew there was a reason I read this forum every day. I have been sanding out those D@#N waterline cuts for the last several years.
All I can think is "now why in the heck didn't I realize to do an offset and then full depth cut after."
That tidbit was worth the price of admission for me.
Thanks

[harold_weber]

Bill, it is even better than that. You will find that not only do the "waterline" marks disappear, but the surface finish improves when you take a final full depth skin cut.

[bleeth]

Thanks for the tips Brady. I'll call Oberg Monday AM since they don't have a web presence. I was actualy surprised to find that the typical "big boys" like Whiteside, Onsrud, and even Freud don't do a spiral bit smaller than 1/2" with a flute able to cut 6/4 goods. I guess it's a marketing thing to the majority of users who build with all panels and small scantling trim!!
Thanks also Dave Allen who handed me a couple of 1/4" straight flutes with 2" cutting length on Saturday. I'm not sure I want to use them on 8 16" by 3" shaped brackets. Do you guys think the straight flute is aggressive enough for that kind of job even using offset steps and a cleanup pass?

Dave

[Brady Watson]

Dave,
In my opinion, 99% of the companies out there rake you over the coals for 'router' bits. End mills on the other hand, are cheaper and cut to much higher tolerances since their intended use is metal cutting. The 'router' bit companies gouge you...because they must think that you couldn't possibly be using that many router bits...and they offer a pretty scarce selection with very little details about the bits in most cases. Freud is pretty good as a generic bit. Onsrud goes one step further by providing additional choices and geometries. Whenever possible, I use spiral end mills to do my cutting. An extra long 1/2" ball end mill was $95 from Onsrud...Oberg had it for $26 if my memory serves me...The quality was better than the onsrud, and the grind was identical.

-Brady

[bleeth]

Brady: Back when we were living in Seattle we used to go to the Boeing Surplus store and buy end mills by the handful that had been used beyond tolerance for the aircraft machinists but were like new to us woodworkers. In those days all my routing was done by hand and mostly with a 1 1/2 HP PC. There wasn't a router bit available that would cut smoother and with less tearout than those "leftover" endmills.

Dave

[robert_cheal]

I am looking for a router bit or end mill with a taper (approx. 2 degrees) to machine some moldable parts that are deep enough that a taper is needed to release from the mold. The parts will be made up of 3-4 layers of 1" MDF. My client creates fiberglass resin molds and architectural details from the master parts that I create for them. I keep thinking that I saw some "off the shelf" mold release router bits in a popular catalog. I can get them custom made if needed but it would be easier to order them if possible. If anyone has any knowledge of where I might look I would greatly appreciate any help.

This forum is great, I always turn to the forum when I have questions and I am looking for solutions, there is always someone who has blazed the trail a little farther. I have been greatly impressed by everyone’s willingness to share and encourage and the friendly banter that is offered here. I have certainly benefited from countless posts I am happy to be a associated by way of a certain “blue machine” in my shop. With out SHOPBOT life would be a little more boring that is for sure.

Thanks to all, Robert Cheal

[billp]

Robert,
Try MSC (www.mscdirect.com (http://www.mscdirect.com)). They have over 400 pages of end mills in their "big book" catalog,and many of them are tapered. Their tapers run from .5 degree to 25 degrees I believe, and in almost any size you'd probably need...

[ron brown]

Or, http://www.conicalendmills.com/conical.htm

Ron

[robert_cheal]

Bill & Ron,
Thanks for the links I'll be checking them out.

Bill, your web page and projects are very impresive, after 4 years I am ready to reconfigure some things on my machine and I really like the overhead features you have shown. And your vacuum ideas have me thinking that its time utilize a vaccum for certain projects.

Ron, your Texas Stars are excellent. I tried one just for fun it was fun to watch it appear. My fathers eyes nearly popped out of his head when he saw it, he fancies himself as a south west art kind of guy, I think I will use one of your stars in some kind of Father's Day gift for him.

Thanks, Robert

[dingwall]

Any suggestions for an 1/8" bit for routing .090" vinyl sheet?

O-flute? Single or double edge?

[David Arde (Unregistered Guest)]

how about a number for Oberg Bros

[rookie432]

O.K. ... O.K. .... O.K. ... I know everybody has "their" favorite router bit brand but I just have to share this.
Last month I was cutting some hard white maple valences and was having trouble getting a nice clean finish on the profile cut. I reached into my bit box and had a nice new 1/4" 2 flute spiral upcut in its factory tube that I must have picked up somewhere along the way.
Popped her in and figured a new cutter would at least reduce my sanding time.
I about fell out of my seat. Perfect finish...zero sanding. Cut Hard white maple like ...well ... Butter. Thank goodness the MFR printed their website on the shank.
www.Courmatt.com (http://www.Courmatt.com).
Never heard of em. But I kept going back to that cutter.
Finally needed to order some .0625 cutters and decided to check them out. Called and ordered. I can't remember having a more helpful sales engineer. It was like talking to the Shopbot folks.
Anyway ...I recieved their product binder in the mail and...If you think I'm just another Botter spouting off about how great his router bits are.... I at least reccomend getting their catalog. It has the clearest explanations of what cutters to use with what material and why. Clear explanations on feed and speeds and chiploads.
They make endmills specifically designed for CNC machining and don't focus solely on metals like most of the others endmill MFR's. (buy the way this acronym is for "Manufacturer's"... Don't want that getting misread.) :0
Final Bonus..........Made in the USA.


Feel free to do what you will with this info.
After reading all the router bit posts I thought I'd chime in w/ a personal experience.


Bill

[mikejohn]

Bill
It's only a bonus made in the USA if its also easily available to us geographically challenged members of the ShopBot community


.......Mike

[gerald_d]

Shh Mike, don't tell the other guys, but Belin sells un-marked bits to a lot of guys in the USA who laser-etch their own branding onto them.

[bruce_clark]

Gerald,

If if says "made in USA", then I doubt it is a Belin...

Bruce

[gerald_d]

And if Belin imports the carbide from the USA?


On this mischievous note, should my comments on this Forum be discarded because they are not "made in the USA"?

[bruce_clark]

Gerald,

To answer your question about American carbide, see this:
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/madeusa.htm

It looks like even _IF_ Belin used American carbide, which I doubt, the company could not legally print "Made in USA" under the FTC regulations.

I'm not even going to touch the rest...

Bruce

[Brady Watson]

I've been working with a supplier to get the most popular (made in USA) bits that a shopbot CNC user is likely to use at prices lower than Onsrud, MSC, Oberg's and many of the other large volume sellers.

Stay tuned...I'll post when I have things setup for purchase.

Thanks!
-Brady

[stickman]

Guys,

I know we've had this discussion.. What I am looking for is Onsrud supplier, at a good price. I know a couple guys had links to their suppliers. Just wanted MSC has a pretty good price on a couple of the Onsrud O flutes. I have used those for MDF cutting and they work great.

Thanks everyone..

[oddcoach]

DESIGN SERVICE
866 569 5317
ASK FOR RICHARD
THEY ALSO CARRY AMANA AND WHITESIDE SAW BLADES AND SHAPER CUTTERS. THEY WILL UPS ANYWHERE

[jhicks]

Thanks Bill for the new source recommendation. Catalog on the way.

[robert_cheal]

Does anyone have any experience in cutting holes in extruded fiber glass? For example 1.5" X 1.5" with an 1/8" wall thickness. I cut a sample hole with a 1/4" 2 flute carbide tipped bit, while it cut fine I would need a router bit with a longer cutting life.

The link below has fiberglass bits staring at $13.20 ea.

http://www.woodworkerswholesale.com/Fiberglass_Bits_s/1145.htm

I would need to cut abou 600 holes aprox. 3/8" x 2 1/2"

I am about to do a test with a 1/4" up-spiral bit and my X & Y cuts will have a 3D line to utilize full cutting tip of the router bit.

If any has any other ideas they would be welcomed.

Thanks, Robert

[olecrafty]

Robert
Since fiberglass is abrasive you might try a coated endmill to reduce friction and heat. contact the endmill manufacturers and ask their rep.. He should give you a good answer.

Kaiwa

[trakwebster]

I know that this thread has moved all around the room, however, the initial question was regarding setting Z-height when using very fine bits.

I have this same issue, and the solution I found was pretty simple.

First, I have a flashlight which has a swivelling head. (Mine came as part of my Makita portable drill.)

I set the flashlight on the table, making it into a little spotlight on the area right under the bit. I make sure it is shining diagonally, from behind and to the side of the bit, and toward me.

I'm working with wood, so I use the control keys, and lower the cutter almost to the surface, and then zero the z, and start using commands like:
JZ -0.04

As the bit lowers, the slanting spotlight creates a shadow, and the elongated shadow and the backlit bit point move closer together. In other words, you can see very accurately when the two are going to come together, which will be the exact top of the surface.

If you are using wood and you overshoot, the tiny bit penetrates slightly into the wood, and nobody is hurt.

If you are using metal, then make some wood shims of precise thickness, and lower down to that instead, adjusting the Z-height to true zero when no longer over the workpiece.

Works for me. Takes only slightly longer than trying to use the Z-plate routine. Cheaper on cutters.

[jeff_guinn]

Arthur,
I zero .0312" carbide bits using a hardened steel plate & have never damaged a bit. If you slow your Z speed in the routine to .2"/sec you should be fine. You can save it under a different file name for small bits & use the faster version for standard bits.
Jeff

[robert_cheal]

Kaiwa,
Thanks for your response, time would not permit following up on your suggestion for this project as it was dumped on me with no time to source out the best cutter. ( I will post my current solution on a new topic "Cutting fiberglass")

Sorry to Arthur & Jeff, when I was looking for place to post my question yesterday It just seemed like a general topic "Router bits"