Cutting Okoume chinese Ply

[bob_lofthouse]

Hi does anyone have any experience cutting 9mm + 6mm Okoume chinese plywood.

I'm currently cutting it at 6" a sec @ 18000rpm using a columbo with a Trend tct 1/2" cutter in one pass.

I've been trying different rpm's and feed rates to avoid what I call fluff when I cross cut against the grain.

The fluff sands off okay but when your cutting numerous parts it's quite time consuming. I don't want to sacrifice quantity but want to improve quality (ie. I want to have my cake and eat it).

[benchmark]

Robert

Try an 8mm spiral downcut on the 9mm ply and a 8mm or 6mm spiral downcut on the 6mm ply, all cutters are solid carbide. Try CMT, Belin or Whiteside cutters...... A 1/2" cutter wastes too much energy

I also use a sacrificial sheet of 3mm MDF which helps to reduce the fluff.

Paul

[srwtlc]

How about one of the various compression spiral bits. A chip-breaker/finisher should keep up with the quantity and still give you a quality cut.

Chocolate cake with fudge frosting ;-p mmmm...

[bob_lofthouse]

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll give them a go...

[elcruisr]

The chinese okoume has been a real headache for every shop I know that has tried using it. We cut up 50 sheets of it before we elected to stop using it. We get the best results with either a 1/2" or 3/8" single flute compression tool. No one I know has been able to beat the fuzzies completely. It also dulls the carbide faster than any sheet stock we've cut and one of my customers had the same problem with his table saw blades. It's also very prone to delamination and several shops have had to eat projects built with it after it warped like mad after construction. Our wood supplier got stuck with two truckloads of the stuff after everyone sent it back and refuses to buy any more! We checked with the tech rep for our tooling supplier and he said everyone he knew in the industry was experiencing similar troubles with it. It looks cheap up front but in the end, it aint....

[sawkerf]

DITTO! That stuff is pure junk. I have had the exact same experience. I sent it all back to my supplier after having a delamination issue with several sheets. I have had the best results with American made veneer core plywood. Not to stir up a nest or anything but I think it's time to start a new "buy American" campaign. We're holding the future of our economy and country by a thread.God bless America! Kip

[gerald_d]

God bless the rest of the World too.

[mikejohn]

If you really want to think about these problems, and if you want to stay in business you really should, wherever you have your workshop, download the book 'The Furniture Fabrication Factory' from here (http://www.thermwood.com/twood_site/pages/books_and_multimedia/furn_fab_factory.htm).
Even if your business is a million miles from furniture, still download it and read the first chapter. You will not like what you read, but it would be foolish to dismiss what is said.
The book comes from Thermwood, and later Chapters may be relevent to them, but that Chapter 1 is relevent to all.
By all means by American (or British, South African Australian et al). By try and buy American made computers, shoes, motor bikes, almost any clothes, washing machines etc. They may be available, but at what prices?
Look around your home and see what is truely home made.
And remember, many things that look home made are not.
Of course, ignore this and you make it easier for the rest of us to compete in your market

...............Mike

[elcruisr]

Mike, I read that book and it really does have some good info in it for anybody in the business. I do think that we are stuck with a global economy whether we like it or not. (let's see my cnc is "made in America" with steel from who knows where, an asian drive system and controler, an italian spindle, South American spoil board and my software is from a British firm) Pandora's box has been opened. Heck, the chinese furniture makers are now sweating competition from the vietnamese companies! Higher quality and lower prices. The trick is to find the nitche they can't fill and work from there.

[mikejohn]

Eric
I agree absolutely with all you say, but especially with that last sentence.
.............Mike

[normand]

Yes Gerald the rest of the world http://www.live8live.com/

[simon]

Here in New Zealand, we flog our guts out and destroy our environment to produce wonderful agricultural products to send to China. In return, we get landfill.
I have never bought a tool made in China that did what it was supposed to do.
So now, although permanently tempted by the low low prices, I boycott Chinese goods in my workshop. This is not patriotic, it is practical.

[gerald_d]

Simon, if I may alter your statements a bit....

"Here in New Zealand, we flog our guts out and destroy our environment to produce wonderful agricultural products to send to China. In return, we get landfill Dollars.
I have never bought a tool made in China that did what it was supposed to do the New Zealand importer said it would."

Guys, it is your own country folk who take the Dollars earned through export and then stock/import the cheapest junk they can find to sucker you into buying it.

[mikejohn]

In 1945 to say something was made in Japan was to say it was inferior rubbish. Less than 20 years later they produced the Nikon F camera, probably the yardstick for SLR cameras, the finest of its day.(Leica wasn't SLR).
If, like me, you are grey of hair and round of belly, you will probably see out your working career without having to make vast changes.
If you're like Gerald, with 20 years or more to go, you will almost certainly be facing low cost high quality goods from the east.
If you are just leaving school then the market place you are entering is going to change rapidly.
Take Eric's advice, avoid anything mass production and go for niche markets, personalised made to measure stuff.
Your governments are not going to put up barriers to assist you, in fact they are taking them down. Your fellow citizens wont help, 99% will go to Wallmart (or wherever) and buy at the best price they can.
It is an opportunity for those who want to take it. There is always a market for high quality, even at a price. Head in that direction.
and if you care about the enviroment for your grandkids, as some of these posts suggest,think hard about what President Bush has said today about carbon emmission reduction (or the lack of it) at the G8 conference.
Don't get despondent. You own a ShopBot. If that doesnt give you an edge, what will?

..............Mike

[mikejohn]

Do I detect a slight thread drift here?

[sawkerf]

A lot of truth has been written here on this subject. Oh, and Chinese plywood still sucks!
Kip

[elcruisr]

"Oh, and Chinese plywood still sucks!
Kip"

Not only that but have you ever really looked at the true final cost of material and labor when making a project? Very often the better material will cost you the same in the end. A lesson I learned the hard way. If we look at the wonderful product mentioned above we have to factor in very short tool life, rejected delaminated and warped parts and extra edge sanding. Also the risk of the assembled piece being rejected after warping after install.

With a poplar core domestic ply I cut around triple the parts with that expensive carbide tool, no edge sanding and very rarely ever reject a part. Something to keep in mind.......


Oh, I try never buy from Wal Mart but you will find the occasional chinese product around my shop, it's unavoidable these days.......

[gerald_d]

The popular Delta VFD's for the (Italian) spindles are from China. A fine company like Delta knows that they are tainted by the international perception that Chinese products are junk, and often you see that the websites of Chinese companies are vague about their location. I have a similar problem, being based in an African country.

[billp]

Yangtze Delta maybe....?

[gerald_d]

One of our African versions is the Okavango delta (http://www.greatestplaces.org/notes/okavango.htm) - a river which flows away from the sea and where the delta drains inland near the Kalahari desert. How's this for thread "drift"? You need water for something to drift on!

[bob_lofthouse]

Just to update you on the Okoume chinese plywood... problem.

We tried our new spiral cutter today and noticed a slightly better cut but not a fantastic cut (having had all the problems in the previous posts above).

Then as we looked at the offcuts we were producing we noticed that they were just the right quality cut we required. After months we had only just noticed this.

I scratched my head for about an hour then changed the toolpath setting from its default "climb mill" (clockwise cut) to "conventional" (anti clockwise cut).

Our problem is now 99% solved and we haven't needed to sand a single part since.

It's great being a novice!!!

[ron brown]

Bob,

Just to repeat a general rule, always look at your scrap and your shavings. As you found out, one side is normally better than the other. It should be on the "part" side, not the waste side.

Good observation is part of any successful endevor.

Ron

[bob_lofthouse]

Hi Ron,

This general rule has now been learnt.

I'm interested to find out what effect using the "conventional" direction will have on our tool life.

We had been using a trend carbide tipped 1/2" straight cutter but are now trying out a trend solid carbide 3/8" up and down spiral.

The straight cutter($20) would only last a day whilst so far the spiral($110) has just lasted longer with no visible demise in quality.

Using the 3/8" we are cutting 6mm okoume @ 6 to 8" per sec in one pass(22000rpm) and 9mm okoume @ 4 to 6" per sec in one pass(22000rmp).

The bit tends to squeal like a pig when cutting the 9mm.

Having searched the forum and found one of Eric Lamoray's old posts, I've just told one of our production guys to drop the spindle speed down to 16000rpm and work his way up in rpm to see what all the results are.

Any input on the above would be appreciated.

Yours
Bob.

[gerald_d]

A tipped tool has a lower quality than solid carbide because of the heat used to "weld" the tips on.

[bob_lofthouse]

Hi Gerald,

I'm also going to try out and order some solid carbide straight cutters which I'm informed are about us$75 and depending on the spiral performance I might even give a spiral diamond cutter a go us$240. If I get permission!!!

We've just got to find the right tool for our job.

Ps... I will see you next friday....

[gerald_d]

Robert, also try the guys who sell bits to the metal-workers for milling machines. We have had a lot of joy (price/life ratio) with "2-flute slot drills, solid carbide". Only snag is that they are spiral-up and lift your stuff off the table.

Yep, see you Friday.."

[bleeth]

The other problem with an upcutter is they can leave a rough edge at the top of the piece across the grain. This can really screw up an expensive veneer. for less then full depths I like downcutters and if I'm cutting ply all the way through I have found the combination bit (up cutting at the bottom and downcutting at the top gives me the cleanest face on both sides for single passs work.

[gene]

There is a co. in Atlanta that sells a solid carbide 1/4" 4 flute cutter for around 20.00
There extermely sharp but the cutter is up shear
I have used them and they did good
The Co. is Allform Tool 770-516 0762
They mfg the cutters there ( made in U.S.A. )
and offer resharpening service They mainly mfg for the metal working ind but the bits i used are good. Their shop is beside ED Conley's shop
a fellow botter , he had a camp there and was very hospitable along with everyone else

[sawkerf]

I use a 1/4" 2+2 Compression bit (cuts both up and down), part #50250, made by Carolina Specialty Tools Inc. 828-397-2467 or WWW.carolinatools.com (http://WWW.carolinatools.com). They will last about 10-15 sheets +/- depending the operation. I use them for dadoing, perimeter cutting, drilling 3/8 deep holes (don't use it to drill all the way through, you'll catch your table on fire like I did). I am sure other manufacturers make these bits but these only cost me $18.90 USD each. Kip

[gene]

Kip
Do you have a part # or person who you deal with?
I would like to try some Thanks Gene

[gene]

Kip
Do you have a part # or person who you deal with?
I would like to try some Thanks Gene

[sawkerf]

Gene, The part # is 50250. My outside salesman is Brian Hawkins, but anyone in sales can get you what you need. Hope this helps, Kip

[gene]

I didn't notice the part # in the origional post until i read it again DUH. I guess it's time to get new glasses . Thanks alot though Gene