Columbo spindle vs. router

[phil_o]

I plan to buy a Shopbot in the near future. It will either be the benchtop or the 48" model. I plan to make small signs and custom furniture. I don't plan to do poduction runs of cabinets. Based on these plans are there good reasons to consider a spindle motor rather han a much less expensive router

[mikejohn]

Phil
There are many hundreds of posts on this forum comparing spindles and routers.
Here (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=7&post=10578#POST10578) might be a good place to start your search. Otherwise, type spindle in the search section.
..........Mike

[gerald_d]

Phil, would this SB be used by the students at your school? If so, I would think that a router would be enough - you can always upgrade later and use the router somewhere else.

[phil_o]

Gerald,
We already have a Shopbot at school. It's been a great addition to our shop. I plan to retire in a couple years and I intend to have a small Shopbot based business. Our school shop router is a Makita variable speed. It's fine for the work we do. I'm looking to see what other owners who have the spindle motor have to say. Mike's link is helpful.

[fleinbach]

Phil


I had a Prt96 with a porter cable router. I sold it and purchased an Alphaprt120 with 3 HP spindle. I don't put my machine through heavy use as some people who do production work so I'm sure the porter cable was good enough. Now after saying that I do not regret putting out the extra money for the Spindle. It both cuts smoother and quieter. Not to mention if need be it will cut thick material without bogging down when nessacary. For me it was worth the money, but I'm sure for some it is more then they could afford and for others just more then they care to spend.

[Brady Watson]

Phil,
You will never regret investing in a spindle.

It is smoother (zero runout compared to PC @ .008" when NEW), quieter (10 times quieter when unloaded) and a much wider power band than a conventional router. I can use drill bits (or end mills) with my spindle and run it at 5,500 (or 5550...5560....5570 RPM) and drill material without burning it. When I run my Colombo between 12,000 to 24,000 RPM, the VFD will use all of the motor's 5HP to maintain the exact RPM under load...it doesn't bog down like a conventional router. This make a HUGE difference in cut quality.

The other thing that I like about my spindle is the fact that I can get collets ranging from 1/16" to 5/8" to fit any tool that I might need without requiring any type of adapter...they tend to be sloppy.

-Brady

[paco]

Hi all!

A spindle sure look appealing!... but what about 220V single phase over 220V tree phase; is their much of a difference at hp output?... or simply electrical economy?

And what special is to know about this pre-warming period?

[Brady Watson]

Paco,
You will not see any noticable difference in the electric bill over the course of a year using single phase over 3 phase...and only one spindle. If you are running 25 spindles 3 shifts/6 days, then yes, you will see a difference.

Warm up...spindles use ceramic-coated ball bearings. The zero-runout spec is when the router has been warmed up...the heat expands the metallic bearings and bearing seats, and everything turns nice and smoothly with no axial or end play.

I believe that one reason the Porter Cable routers have problems with heat is that there isn't enough clearance in the bearings...so when things expand, they have no place to go...and they bind, cause the motor to work harder etc. No different than setting up bearings in a car engine in theory.

-Brady

[paco]

Merci Brady!

How long is the warm up? (I guess a few minutes)
Do you keep the spindle on/hidling in between uses/running files?

About PC; I believe that having a sealed bearing is'nt much of a benefit knowing that this seal rub the inner cage at 10 000 RPM and more... combined with the lack of a clearance... my PC is in fact only burning hot at the chuck/collet/bit and at lower bearing retainer... but I heard and read that the brushes are wearing much faster than other brand...

[matt@summitgdc.com]

Paco,
I totally agree with Frank and Brady. You will not regret a spindle. I upgraded to the same set-up as Frank and I immediately noticed better cut quality, and the sound level! Oh man, that is almost reason enough to have one. Not to mention what Brady said about the adjustability. Plus it goes nicely with capabilities of an alpha.
As for the warm up, I let mine go for 10 min. or so. And no it doesnt idle on between files when it is wired thru the control box. You are propted to turn it on and it shuts off automatically at the end of a file.

[paco]

Matt,

if it's not hidling between files/uses (if it's stoped), and there is a time lap more than 10 minutes; does it need to be re-warmed? (I guess yes.)

[gerald_d]

Phil, you do realise that the advise that you are getting here is extremely biased. Nobody that owns a spindle will tell you that they think they wasted their money. Nobody that owns a BMW will say that they should have bought a Toyota instead.

Looking at your opening statement, "I plan to buy a Shopbot in the near future. It will either be the benchtop or the 48" model. I plan to make small signs and custom furniture. I don't plan to do poduction runs of cabinets. Based on these plans are there good reasons to consider a spindle motor rather han a much less expensive router....I plan to retire in a couple years and I intend to have a small Shopbot based business. Our school shop router is a Makita variable speed. It's fine for the work we do.", this is a "lifestyle" choice for you. In your retirement situation, I would guess there are more people managing perfectly okay with routers as opposed to spindles.

[elcruisr]

Despite the sage wisdom of our friend Gerald the big consideration is versatility. Everybody starts out with a plan for their machine and then they discover a whole new bunch of things they can do as they learn it's capabilities. A spindle is capable of performing many more tasks, and doing them well, than a router. The RPM range and control, the tighter tolerances and lower sound levels would be worth it to ME if I was even putting one in my garage just to play with.
On the subject of warm ups, don't forget that ten minute cool down at the end of the day or job. The factory calls for it. If it's only ten or 15 minutes between jobs we idle at 9000 rpm. We actually use an infra red thermometer to monitor bearing temps on our spindle several times a day. It may be overkill to some but it will let you know when it's time for a rebuild without trashing the spindle. It will also let you know if you are pushing the upper limit too hard.

Eric

[dingwall]

Great idea Eric. I've been looking for an excuse to pickup one of those.

[bleeth]

I heartily weigh in on the side of going for the spindle. I have had several occasions where clients end up becoming transfixed while watching the bot do it's thing and the conversation leads to greater interest and sales. No one has a comfortable conversation or even want's to watch while standing around a PC router wailing away. That translates to me as a tool paying for itself in direct sales as well as the comfort on the ears and smoothness of cut while performing other jobs in the shop simultaneously.

Dave

[Brady Watson]

From that reasoning Dave, it also makes the Bot look like a more professional tool since the spindle is not readily identifiable by your average Joe...not like you can waltz into Depot and get a Colombo...


-Brady

[sawkerf]

Does anyone have $4000.00 I could borrow?
I would love to have a columbo, but I've got to uprade to ensignia first. If I didn't love tools so much I would be rich!

[beacon14]

If I didn't love tools so much I would be broke!! Or at least not working with my hands.

[mikejohn]

I know nothing about spindles so I am wondering whether this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=57122&item=3810612 733) offer on ebay is good or bad.
$1200!
...........Mike

[gerald_d]

I have to smile at this spindle-mania


If I read this correctly, the done things with spindles are:
- spend lots of money to buy them in the first place
- add 10 minutes to each cutting job because you need to warm it up first
- buy an infrared thermometer (not cheap)
- measure the spindles temp. several times a day (like nursing a sick patient)
- leave the spindle running between cutting jobs, lest it gets cramps.
- replace the "collet sleeves" every few days (advised in another thread) - also not cheap
- don't plunge straight into a job because the stone (ceramic) bearings may chip.

All of this to avoid using a cheap, noisy Porter Cable router? I'd love to see a general CNC forum with ShopBot and MultiCam users - of course there will be a strong message to buy Multicam rather than ShopBot



Guys, consider the philosophy of buying the cheapest CNC (ShopBot) and then adding the most expensive "router spindle" - why did you buy ShopBot and not something that is 10 times more expensive?
(We use Makita and Metabo routers)

[mikejohn]

Gerald
A simple question.
If you cut a piece using first a spindle, then a router, then handed the two pieces to another person, would they be able to tell which piece was cut with which tool?
(have to go to out in half an hour to inspect the table! ShopBot arrives in the UK on 20th!!!)
..........Mike

[gerald_d]

Mike, I think that your simple question should be posed to those with experience of both routers and spindles.

....and here I think we discover what is wrong with our little discussion above....is there anyone on this forum with solid experience of having used both in a ShopBot? Is there anyone who "upgraded" from a router to a spindle and found that cutting noise is 10x less, maintenance cost is 10x less, cut quality is 10x better, etc.?

[fleinbach]

Gerald

Did you miss my post above?

"I had a Prt96 with a porter cable router. I sold it and purchased an Alphaprt120 with 3 HP spindle."

About Noise level, 10 times might be a stretch but it is a lot quieter. I remember stating when I first cut with the spindle “This is unbelievable you can talk without yelling. When they told me it would be quieter then a router I would have never guessed it was going to be so quiet you could hold a conversation without shouting."

As for maintenance cost I will probably never know. That would be best answered by the people on here who do production runs. I only average about 8 to 16 hours a week.

Mike
Gerald

In answer to cut quality.
"If you cut a piece using first a spindle, then a router, then handed the two pieces to another person, would they be able to tell which piece was cut with which tool?"

On some perfectly set up cuts with each tool you probably wouldn't be able to see the difference. But you will have to be much more careful with the router due to its limited HP. Quality of cut is very dependant on proper RPM coupled with move speed. Remember a 3hp router generates 3hp at peak RPM only and has very limited RPM control. As soon as you start cutting the hp drops significantly. Where as a spindle can maintain its HP at all speeds (not to mention as Brady pointed out the speed range of a spindle is what ever you want or need.) I remember when pushing the limits with the router you could here it bog down under the strain. I know everyone who ever used a router has herd the motor straining if you try to take more then a light pass. I have cut 1” MDF in a single pass with the spindle and never herd the rpm drop.


Do I regret spending the extra cash for a spindle? Absolutely not.

But remember this is from a person who has spent $4,500.00 on 2 large screen LCD monitors and is just about to purchase a larger one for another $3,500.0

[gerald_d]

Sorry Frank, I did miss it. Thanks for telling us about both sides of the coin.

[elcruisr]

Infrared thermometers are cheap, they can be had for under $100. Also I warm up in the morning and cool down in the evening. With the production volumes I have a router would be a joke. We have run as long as 18 hours a day with 8 hours being pretty much the norm. No router is going to cut 3/4" sheet goods day in and day out at 8-10" / sec in a single pass and survive long. Maybe production volume dosn't mean much to you Gerald but in my market it's what makes us profitable against the competition! And yes, I talked to some shops who made the switch from router to spindle when researching our purchase. They agreed it was the best way to go for production. One was wearing out a router every 4 months before upgrading and that is not acceptable for some of us.

Eric

[gerald_d]

Eric, I think that you have missed the point of this thread. We have a retired schoolteacher wanting to know if he needs a spindle for his small SB (48" or benchtop) to make small signs and custom furniture. He clearly says "no production runs".

I am not trying to say that spindles are a waste of time and money - heck, if I was in your situation, I would certainly be using a spindle. Absolutely no reservations about that.

But please would you understand that many of us are far from your high-speed mass-production situation. And please don't look down on us lowly souls who actually do a pretty good job with a plain old router.

[mikejohn]

My feeling is, for the relatively short runs I will be doing, in 4mm and 6mm Birch ply, the router will do well.
If I find I need the speed and mass-production capabilities of a spindle in the future, I will be making enough money to afford one! (and regret buying the last of the PRT96's and not an Alpha!)

[fleinbach]

Mike

You got it. I had a PRT but was making enough to afford the Alpha so I switched.

Gerald
Your forgiven.

[elcruisr]

No Gerald, the point is whether or not the spindle is worth it. He talks of maybe using it as a tool to build furniture and what sounds like a small business venture. If you want to fully utilize the capabilities of the machine and the tooling you cut with there's only one answer. If you can accept that less capability falls within your needs fine. You make it sound like spindles are a waste of money and throw ridicule at those who own and operate them. This is simply not the case. Most shopbot owners suddenly discover there is much more work than they planned for available. The question is are they able to do it with a router head? Why hamstring yourself from the start? It is a question of philosophy.
I am currently learning glass blowing. I could have bought a cheap torch that was "good enough to play with". I didn't and held out for a top level torch. I now know that entry level torch would have driven me crazy with it's limitations inside of two months. Good tools are rarely a bad investment even for a hobby.

Eric

[mikejohn]

First Gerald said "I am not trying to say that spindles are a waste of time and money - heck, if I was in your situation, I would certainly be using a spindle. Absolutely no reservations about that."
Then Eric said "You make it sound like spindles are a waste of money and throw ridicule at those who own and operate them."
Is the difference in the English language really that different either side of the Atlantic?
............Mike

[gerald_d]

"throw ridicule at those who own and operate them" ????

[ron brown]

Routers are not production tools. I've had Hitachi, Sears, Black and Decker and Porter-Cable routers. I've lost count on the exact numbers I destroyed on homebuilt CNC tools.

Ar present time I am runnign a PC7518. I have never seen it draw more than 1900 watts PEAK on start-up. This is ~2.5HP. Running under load is will range from ~450 watts to ~1000 watts.

My next building of a CNC machine will be rigid enough to handle a true 3HP spindle. The lower noise level, the higher horsepower, ability to CONTROL the bit speed, better runout tolerances, proper collets available and lower noise will be welcome additions to the shop.

Ron

[elcruisr]

Quote:

"If I read this correctly, the done things with spindles are:
- spend lots of money to buy them in the first place
- add 10 minutes to each cutting job because you need to warm it up first
- buy an infrared thermometer (not cheap)
- measure the spindles temp. several times a day (like nursing a sick patient)
- leave the spindle running between cutting jobs, lest it gets cramps.
- replace the "collet sleeves" every few days (advised in another thread) - also not cheap
- don't plunge straight into a job because the stone (ceramic) bearings may chip.

All of this to avoid using a cheap, noisy Porter Cable router?"

Eric

[mikejohn]

The thread was started by this question "I plan to make small signs and custom furniture. I don't plan to do poduction runs of cabinets. Based on these plans are there good reasons to consider a spindle motor rather han a much less expensive router.
I don't think anyone would suggest a spindle is inferior to a router. The question is more 'will a router do the job I ask of it?'.
The answer appears to be that when production isn't at mass production rate, when the material you are using isn't extremely hard to work, when you are satisfied with slower operating speeds,then the router will do the job intended.
There are inexpensive alternatives to reducing the noise of the router.

Ron
you talk about a homebuilt CNC machine. Does that mean you don't own one of Durhams' big blue beasties?

.........Mike

[mikejohn]

Eric
spend lots of money to buy them in the first place
Lots of money is different things to different people, but a spindle can be 10 times the price of a spindle
add 10 minutes to each cutting job because you need to warm it up first
Your words
buy an infrared thermometer (not cheap)
Is $100 cheap?
measure the spindles temp. several times a day
your words, but Geralds comment (like nursing a sick patient) was a little non-technical.
leave the spindle running between cutting jobs, your words, and Geralds lest it gets cramps. was again not very technical.
I don't know the source of these last two quotes "replace the "collet sleeves" every few days (advised in another thread) - also not cheap
- don't plunge straight into a job because the stone (ceramic) bearings may chip."

"All of this to avoid using a cheap, noisy Porter Cable router?" At least he's not praising it


I think it would be easy to support the price and the use of a spindle for many tasks, with good technical argument.
I don't think we will learn a great deal from objections to counter-arguments.
I am happy for people to argue against my points of view. It makes me re-assess whether I am making valid arguments. If I feel I am, I am willinng to clarify and re-state them.
If I am wrong, and I am, often, I am willing to say this, and hopefully learn from my errors.
..........Mike

[normand]

With a prt 96 and a pc router would it be better to upgrade to alpha or to upgrade with a spindle?

[gerald_d]

Eric, I am surprised that you take those words as personal ridicule against you, or against anyone else that has argued for the spindle. Should I go into a huff now and claim that I have been ridiculed by what you said against routers? Of course not!

A decision to buy a router is not a final life-or-death decision - upgrading to a spindle later is not a drastic step.

Is there anyone that thinks Phil will ever regret having bought a router first?

[billp]

Mike,
Can you tell us some of the inexpensive alternatives to reduce the noise of a Porter Cable please?

[mikejohn]

Bill
I was rather relying on this information here (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=2&post=15296#POST15296).
Or maybe good ear defenders

I do, seriously, have an idea for mine (due to arrive in 12 days), coming from my previous life flying small aircraft. If it works, I'll publish the results here.
...........Mike

[billp]

Mike,
If I am reading the above linked thread correctly the alternatives mentioned are to either ; trade decibels for power, OR build an entire room around the Shopbot? I will be looking forward to hearing about your experiments in this area when you are actually up and running....

[gerald_d]

Bill, speaking theoretically because I've never seen (or heard) a Porter-Cable, the biggest cause of the noise is the built-in cooling fan behaving like a siren. If that is indeed the source, then one could contemplate the spindle cooling route - use compressed air or an external fan.

[mikejohn]

Bill
I do have an overhead pin router, and was able to reduce the router noise considerably by using boxed in soundproofing.
We still had the noise from the bit, however.
Also, the router is stationary, so I don't know yet if I can apply a similar solution to a moving carriage.
But it certainly drastically reduced the router noise.
.............Mike

[ron brown]

Mike,

I do have some ShopBot parts in my machine. I hesitate calling it a "ShopBot" because it isn't one - well - exactly. I am running a ShopBot control board and control software.

Ron

[gerald_d]

Having now looked at the illustrated spare parts list for a PC router, it looks like the fan is a metal plate with a notched and twisted edge - very old-fashioned and noisy. It does look like the fan can be removed, because it has a seperate part number to the armature. So an idea would be to remove the fan, close off the bottom air slots, inject compressed air through that closing plate and let it exit out the top of the router. (Some other brands of routers use plastic fans that are shaped more aerodynamically)

[mikejohn]

Ron
The whole thing seems like some sort of magic to me, probably more so when it finally arrives.
Anyone who can make his own has to know something about it

From all those movies when I was a kid, I thought Texas was half the size of Europe, with more cows than people, and bad guys around every corner!
.........Mike

[Brady Watson]

Frank...you are correct. I mis-quoted the 10X quieter, my Colombo is in fact 4X quieter than the quietest router...that being the Makita at 83 dB.

Phil appended his post saying: "Our school shop router is a Makita variable speed. It's fine for the work we do. I'm looking to see what other owners who have the spindle motor have to say."

And that's what us SPINDLE OWNERS did.

A spindle is a much finer tool in every regard comapred to any other 'router' out there. A router was not engineered for production work...and a spindle is. The spindle's bearings sit in cast iron seats and the cooling system on them are much more efficient...adding to the spindle's duty cycle. Router bearings sit in a cast chassis...and are mass produced with next to no human interaction in regards to testing runout or end play. Spindles are ALL tested by hand before they go out the door.

Comparing a converted hand router to a spindle is like comparing a converted drill press to a Bridgeport mill. They'll both get the job done in *most* cases, but one offers a LOT more versatility, adjustability and duty than the other.

There are MANY jobs that have been farmed to me because I have a spindle...and other botters have 3.5hp PC routers. The adjustability of the spindle allows you to mill hardwoods, plastics and composite materials where chipload and finish are of the utmost importance. A spindle will get you MORE WORK! ....and in my case work from other owners that had routers that were too sloppy or prone to bog down to get the job done right.

You can certainly do a lot of things with the PC that you can do with a spindle....but can you do them well?

Buy the right tool for the job.

5286

...or you'll wish that you did!

5287



-Brady

[mikejohn]

Brady
I agree with everything you say.
Particularly "Buy the right tool for the job"
...........Mike

[billp]

Gerald,
I understand the concept of using compressed air to alleviate the fan noise, however my compressor is louder than my Porter Cable........And upgrading it to one large enough that would supply a constant supply of air on a six hour file seems to be heading in the wrong direction.
Having converted to a spindle myself,it's been an evolutionary move which I appreciate more and more with each use of the tool.
Normand, In answer to your question I would suggest that if you don't move up to a spindle, you don't get the full benefits of the Alpha. I am one of those who upgraded first, saw the limitations I had unwittingly imposed on myself, and then invested in the spindle...This is based on the fact that I tend to run very long files, which with the 'wrong'tool can not only be slower, but wearing on the operator as well..

[mikejohn]

Just having read back through all these threads, something is very clear from all contributers. The spindle is a much better tool than the router.
The difference of price is what makes people choose the router over the spindle, nothing else.
Therefore an individual should evaluate whether he is spending his pounds (or $$$), wisely for the purpose he intends to use the ShopBot for.
Those who have spent, and are happy, obviously made a wise decision. Those who didn't spend, and are happy, obviously made a wise decision. Anyone who did or didn't spend, and are unhappy, obviously made an un-wise decision. Those of us who can't afford the more expensive route had the decision forced upon them


..........Mike

[stickman]

Mike John,

Well PUT! Now can we get back to posting pictures and ideas on PROJECTS...

Jay

[gerald_d]

Brady, those pics are a low blow.
I'll bet the Multicam/Thermwood guys have the same reservations when they giggle about our ShopBots!


I must say that when we looked at ShopBots/Routers/Spindles during the year 2000, the spindle cost more than the ShopBot, the ratio is quite different now. Buying a spindle then would have more than doubled the initial purchase cost and the project would have been a non-starter.

If a retired schoolteacher is being advised against using a router on a small shopbot, then why should ShopBot even offer routers on their options list?

Goodnight all, I'll be quiet for the next 8 hours or so.

[phil_o]

Wow, I created quite a discussion here - thanks everyone. I'll let you know what I decide. The noise is a big factor for me.
If I start out with a router and later decide to upgrade to a spindle, what is involved in upgrading? Does the Shopbot and control box have to be somehow configured to handle a spindle motor? Is this a big deal or not a big deal?

[Brady Watson]

Phil,
If you buy an Alpha, they will ask you what tool you will be using and install the appropriate relay to turn the tool on and off. This is more of a safetly feature than anything.

Gerald,
No one is advising Phil against purchasing a bot and using a standard router. Spindle owners were summoned to give their assessment of their tools and why they liked them over a router. I imagine that ShopBot offers routers in addition to spindles on the options list because routers make the most sense for a number of users. If your router can get the job done & you are happy with the results (and so is customer) then great! ~ you just 'saved' yourself some loot on the front end. ShopBot advises that you purchase a spindle to take full advantage of the speeds that the Alpha machines offer. A spindle is more appropriate for the Alpha tools and greatly expands it's capabilites.

For some of us who do more exotic work, a regular router just doesn't cut it, so to speak. I think it's great that Phil posted here asking the differences. When he considers the types of materials he will cut and the level of finish he desires, a standard router may very well be all that he needs.

-Brady

[srwtlc]

Does anyone know anything about the Fimec spindles from http://www.ekstromcarlson.com/index.htm

[richards]

Great discussion on spindles vs. routers. I've had sufficient "joy" fighting the PC7518 to know that I need a spindle. My problem is knowing whether the 3hp unit is large enough for my needs. I'd rather have the 5hp unit, but there just is not enough electricity available to run that model.

Is there anyone out there that has had experience with both the 3hp and the 5hp spindles on an Alpha that can help me out? (I'll be cutting mostly baltic-birch, MDF and particle board. The goal is to get the best possible cut in the shortest possible time.)

-Mike

[ron brown]

Scott,

I looked at that site an ssure like the weight of the spindles. The 3HP Colombos are in the mid 20 pound range.

Ron

[gerald_d]

Mike, I know this won't answer your question, but you do realise that 3HP in spindle language is very much more power than 3.5HP in Porter Cable language. My gut feel is that a 3HP spindle will give you at least double the cutting torque of a 3.5HP Porter Cable. Oh how I wish these two "schools" would use the same measuring methods so that their specs can be reliably compared.

[mikejohn]

Gerald
I can not find that thread that compared HP with wattage, for those of us this side of the great divide.
....Mike

[gerald_d]

Sorry Mike_J, I was talking to Mike_R.

"Power" is measured as HorsePower (imperial) versus kiloWatt (metric). The official coversion rate is 0.746 kW = 1.0 HP. But that doesn't give the whole picture.....

The power of an electrical motor running on Alternating Current (AC) can be measured in a couple of ways:

- The "shaft" power, that can be fed to a cutter is measured by running the motor against a mechanical load (dynamometer) and the torque & speed is measured to calculate the "shaft" or "output" power. (Foot-Pounds X RPM X 0.0000303 = HorsePower or Newton-Meter X RPM X factor = kW) I assume that this is the method that the spindle guys use to measure their motors - it is the standard way of measuring industrial motors.

- Electrical Power consumed is measured at the input end of the motor. All of the electrical power does not reach the cutter - some is lost to heat, bearing friction, wind resistance inside the motor, brush friction, fan, noise. Because the power is from Alternating Current, you need a good meter to measure the average current that the motor is drawing. (Amps X Volts = Watt and 1000 Watt = 1 kW). Ron has such a meter - see this post (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=27&post=21817#POST21817).
However, there are inventive ways of raising the stated amount of power:
- Some people don't take the average of the alternating current, like Ron does. On their oscilliscopes they measure the peak height of the sine wave and get a reading 1.414 times higher than Ron. (In the stereo/HiFi industry, some people even measure from the bottom of the negative peak to the top of the positive peak and get a peak-to-peak value 2.828 times higher the the correct average (RMS) method)

- A very typical way of boosting the stated power value, is to introduce the concept of "duty cycle". If the manufacturer of the tool thinks that you should only use the tool for a 5 minute period in every 30 minute cycle (allowing 25 minutes to cool off), they would assume a 17% duty cycle and "calculate" their stated power for that. You can be sure that Porter Cable uses something less than 100% as a duty cycle (which is realistic for a handheld tool with a trigger switch). The spindle guys should not be talking anything less than 100% duty cycle.
At the Porter Cable website, their routers are now listed with "peak horsepower" as the wording.

[mnrite@yahoo.com]

Besides the cost difference, how much difference is there in the power required for a 3hp spindle compared to the PC, I think I have a 100amp 220v subpanel in the shop/garage.

Thanks
Mike

[fleinbach]

Mike

The power requirements are not that much differant. I don't recall the exact figures but to obtain 3HP you need to pull a certain number of amps. I have a 100amp 220v panel in my shop. We run the 3HP Columbo Spindle, a 5HP vacuum, and possibly 2 other shop tools at the same time without a problem.

[gerald_d]

100 Amp X 220 Volt = 22000 Watt = 22 kW = 30 HP. Yeah, that should be enough!

[richards]

Mike E.

If I remember correctly, the 5hp spindle and the Alpha together require at least 50 amps 220 VAC single phase. (Of course, actual consumption would depend on how fast you're moving the steppers and how hard you're pushing the spindle.) The dust collector (2hp) and vacuum hold down assembly both require their share in addition to the Shopbot. Running a table mounted router to do edge work while the Shopbot does the heavy work requires still more . . . and so on.

My shop has only 50 amps total 220 VAC, so the 5hp unit wouldn't be prudent for me.

-Mike R.

[mnrite@yahoo.com]

Mike R

Thats why I was considering the 3hp.

From this post it sounds like my money would be better spent on a spindle rather than on the second Z for two routers? I know a lot depends on what I plan to do with the Bot.

[mnrite@yahoo.com]

If the second was mostly for drilling, would I be better off dealing with the tool change but have the control of the RPM's

Thanks
Mike

[ron brown]

Mike,

You have ~15HP of electricity available. I don't know how much power the ShopBot actually uses for the steppers but I suspect less than 1500 watts.

I suspect if you did an analysis of the amount of power you used, you could support at least a 3HP spindle if not a 5HP spindle. With the VFD, there is not a "surge" as in routers where the load is high then settles down. It might require load balancing and a 220V Alfa drive to achieve the desired results.

Ron

[richards]

Ron,

I think I would be safe with a 3hp spindle with the existing 50 amp supply, but I'm not sure that the 3hp is adequate for the job. All of my .75-inch material cuts require at least two passes, one at a depth of ~0.60 followed by a final tabbing cut to full depth.

The initial cut is to remove most of the material without breaking vacuum. The final cut is to remove as much of the remaining material as possible and still not disturb the parts.

(Eric Lamoray wrote about the Shopbot + spindle + vacuum as a "system" - I didn't look up the post before writing this, but that post really helped me to see that all parts in the system have to work together. Solving the spindle question does not solve the vacuum question, etc. In short, I'm trying to find the best solution to get the highest production within the known limitations of inadequate power and limited vacuum.)

You wrote about "load balancing and a 220V Alfa drive". I assume that means that a typical 220VAC single-phase line (North American) is really two 110 VAC lines. To me, load balancing means that ~ 1/2 of the load is handled by one leg of the 220VAC line and ~ 1/2 of the load is handled by the other half of he 220VAC line. Are my assumptions correct?

In any case, Gordon, at Shopbot, and I talked about splitting the load between the Oriental Alpha Step Motors within the control box. I don't remember exactly how the box was wired - I'll have to open it and see; but, I think that the load was basically split evenly between the four stepper motors. That being the case, the 3hp spindle will work.

With all of that as background information, can the 3hp spindle cut particle board, MDF and baltic-birch to a depth of ~0.60 inches all day long without bogging down?

-Mike

[fleinbach]

Mike

I can say that I have yellow pine framing 1 1/2" thick for hours at .8 inch per pass. I have also cut 5/4 Trex decking in a single pass at 6 in/sec. I have cut 1" MDF in a single pass at 10 in/sec for several hours. All with a 3HP Spindle

[richards]

I need to refine the question: "can the 3hp spindle cut particle board, MDF and baltic-birch to a depth of ~0.60 inches all day long without bogging down?" , with specifics.

The cutter of choice is a single -flute 3/8-inch spiral, feed speed is ~10-inch per second, RPM is ~ 24,000, which results in a chip load of ~ 0.025 (typical in charts for particle board).

[richards]

Frank,

Thanks for the response. You posted before I re-qualified my question.

-Mike

[srwtlc]

I spoke with a sales person from this (http://www.ekstromcarlson.com/index.htm) company about their router packages (http://www.ekstromcarlson.com/router_packages.htm), and they have a 2.68hp for $2006 and a 4.7hp for $2280 plus $64 to $127 if you have only 220 single phase. It includes the spindle, collet, nut, wrenches, drive, and reactor. That would be a substantial savings over a Columbo. the 2.68hp weights in at 15lb and the 4.7 at 20lbs

They have industrial grade spindle bearings, not ceramic. 18,000 rpm max, 7000 rpm min.

[richards]

Scott (and others)

Does anyone have any experience with the non-colombo spindles? Even though the price is attractive, I'm leaning towards buying the Colombo because of its track record with Shopbot owners.

-Mike

[nappy1]

Couombo is the best in my opinion. I just installed a 3 hp unit on 220volt single phase for myself. On my daytime job we have 16 Colombo spindles on 2 Komo CNC routers. Colombo warantees the spindle for 1 year reguardless of hours of service. The Komos run 24/6 and I replace the occosional spindle once very 2 years or so.
These spindles are cutting Corian. The company is the sole manufacturer of Corian samples for the entire world.
Any specific questions, i'll be glad to answer them.

[beacon14]

Just how much Corian gets cut up into samples in a years time?

[mnrite@yahoo.com]

If I get the 3hp spindle, would I get much use from a router in a second Z or would I end up using the spindle all the time? A spindle can have a quick release for a tool changer, could this be used on a shopbot even without the changer?

Thanks
Mike

[Brady Watson]

Mike,
The pneumatic chuck spindles can be used without an ATC. However...even without a changer, they are a LOT more expensive than a standard spindle.

If you have a spindle on the Z and router on the A, then you could effectively have a 2 tool changer. One with a 1/4" bit and maybe one with a V-bit. How you use them depends on your application.

-Brady

[mnrite@yahoo.com]

Thanks Brady,

I am just thinking, I was going to get 2Z's for 2 routers, but this thread has almost convinced me to spend for a spindle, if I have a spindle and the performance is that much better, I will probably tend to make the tool change in the spindle instead of using the router in the second Z.

Thanks
Mike

[dingwall]

2 Zs are a bit of a bear to keep aligned.

[nappy1]

How much Corian? We get a minimum of 1 tractor trailer load every week. One Komo cuts about 7000 2" x 2" samples per shift. Its a lot.

[beacon14]

Holy Cr*p! What do you do with all the Corian dust that's created - it must be a lot of dust as well?

[nappy1]

We generate enough dust in one week to fill a 50 yard dumpster. Since it is considered inert it can be used in a landfill. The only problem is it doesn't absorbe water.
I tried to sell it as a filler for epoxy but nobody wants it.

[mnrite@yahoo.com]

Brady,
Just curious, "a pneumatic chuck spindle is a lot more expensive". How much is a lot?

Thanks
Mike

[Brady Watson]

Just as a ballpark comparison (just the spindle with no VFD etc) a standard 5 HP Spindle can be had for around $2500. One with a pneumatic chuck is around $6000.

Would you rather have 2 spindles and $1000 allowance for tooling...or one with a quick change and nothing else?

-Brady

[phil_o]

Now that I've had some time to digest everyones input I have a follow up question. I use a benchtop PRT with a Makita router at work now. Cutting 3-D files with this setup is very slow. I'm sure that an Alpha rigged with a spindle motor will cut the file much faster but will the quality of the cut be degraded by the higher speed?

[billp]

Phil,
3Dwork is a different animal. Even though your machine may be telling you that you have the ability to cut much faster, the reality of the matter is that your file actually governs the speed of your cut. By this I mean that if you have a gazillion "Z" moves due to many "peaks and valleys" in your file, you don't get the benefit of any faster "X or Y"speeds, as the machine is only making minute moves in those directions.
Yes your Z speeds CAN run much higher, but this too depends on the materials you are cutting. You wouldn't want to plunge too quickly into something like aluminum, or cocobolo.....
The spindle will improve your cut because it will have less "runout" at the bit, and that usually translates into a smoother cut. With the increase in speed I have chosen to decrease my stepovers and as a result I can get a cleaner cut in the same amount of time I was when using a PC router. So instead of using 10-12% stepovers, I will sometimes run between 5-8%...
This is also a case where your cutting strategy comes into play. I now tend to use a "roughing pass" much more than I did in the past. While some people think that this adds to the cutting time, I find that it allows my finishing passses to be set at a much higher speed ( and again with a smaller stepover for quality.).
We'd all like 3D to be faster, but speed and quality aren't always compatible... Most people will pay for quality....

[larryk (Unregistered Guest)]

I know this is an old post. But after reading this & dusted of my old "American Electricians Handbook",almost broke my foot when I drop it. How can a 5hp colombo Spindle Model RS90
220v/single phase/34a
draw 34a? If hp=w/746=w*0.00134 w=hp*746. I come up with 10hp. I hope this is not true with 34amps on the shopbot page. I am going to order one, any help would be great :}

[fleinbach]

larryk

If my memory serves me correctly the Colombo 5 hp spindle is actually a 10 hp Colombo spindle. It is rated at 10 hp when using three-phase and it is de-rated to 5 hp when converted to single phase.

[bleeth]

My Columbo spindle is a 5HP @15A running on a 10HP Delta VFD 3PH wired as a 220 single phase. It is also rated 5HP at 330 but then draws 8.6 (according to label)

[richards]

Larry,
The Colombo 5hp spindle requires the 10hp Delta VFD-B inverter when used on a single phase line. A few electricians that I've talked to said that a 7-1/2hp rotary converter would work well to save a little on power requirements.

I've just about decided to go with the 3hp Colombo instead of waiting forever to get into a shop that has enough power to run the 5hp. From what Frank and others have said about the 3hp unit, I believe that it would be more than adequate (especially given the fact that I would need to greatly increase my vacuum to ever get full use of anything larger than the 3hp unit - and more vacuum means more power - and more power means either a new shop or a truck load of AA batteries).

[gerald_d]

"The Colombo 5hp spindle requires the 10hp Delta VFD-B inverter when used on a single phase line. "...Which does NOT mean that the inverter will draw 10HP worth of electrical power - it will only draw as much power as the spindle uses.

[les_linton]

Mike,

I have the 5 hp unit on my PRT. Residential 100 amp panel in my garage. I run the Columbo, 3HP dust collector and sometimes the whirlpool on the other side of the wall kicks on too.

No problems.

Les

[ron brown]

Has anyone thought of measuring actual current draw? That is normally my first step in troubleshooting electrical problems. It is also how I found out a Porter-Cable router is no where near 3 and whatever fraction of horse-power the sales force claims.

Ron

[larryk (Unregistered Guest)]

Thanks, Ron I think there is no way! That a 5hp colombo would take 34a. Even mabey hafe at full load. I only put this up on the post so that someone dont think that they cant buy one if they dont have 34a. But I dont think you can get at full load any way?

[Mayo]

What do you do about bit changes with the spindles needing cool down periods? Do you have to let it cool down before stopping it to change bits? And then after changing bits do you then need to do another warm up?

[gerald_d]

When I do get a spindle one day, with non-ceramic bearings, it is not going to be warmed up and cooled down. I think that some aspects of spindles are "over-romanticised", painting them as needing to be "nursed".

[elcruisr]

OK, a few words from an owner of three 5 hp columbo spindles. Using the delta control box you can measure real time amp load. We don't use the feature much any more but we did for a while when setting up the Alpha feeds and speeds. In 3/4" ply, single passing at 10" /sec,18,000rpm, using a 3/8" single flute compression spiral we never really topped 15 amps. Any higher than that and you where running a tool way too dull anyway. We do run three phase here.

We have been through the rebuild cycle once already and have learned considerable about a spindles care and feeding. You DO have to warm them up (sorry Gerald) at the start of the day at 9,000 for about ten minutes. They are built with tolerances measured in 10,000's at a warmed up state. They can be run cold and you will cut the bearing life roughly in half. We learned about this one the hard way so take my word for it. You do not need to cool down for a tool change or warm up again afterwards. As long as the lower body is still warm to the touch it's hot enough to run and just sitting turned off that can take 15 to twenty minutes if you just finished a run. The cool down cycle at the end of the day is to prevent condensation in the bearings. I don't know how touchy they are about this but following the factory guidlines is giving me over double the bearing life of my first spindle.

You should keep an eye on the temp of the bearing housings. We use an inrfa red thermometer. Idling during warmup should never exceed 140 and during cutting 160 F. Over this and you've got bearing troubles. Rebuilding then would save you a bundle over waiting for a failure. You don't need to be a fanatic following it around all day but I usually check it once a day.

We usually run all day or a good chunk of it. If you only run for short periods once or twice a day then you would need warm up/cool down cycles each time. It's not the big deal everyone is making out of it. It just becomes a habit after a bit.

You also need to avoid plunging straight into stock with larger tools. The bearings are designed for axial loading not thrust loading. We try to always do ramped entries. These are also better for tool life as there will be less burning. We never seem to notice any issues with plunging a 1/4 or smaller tool for drilling purposes. You can also spec a special set of bearings for thrust loads from the factory if you really need them, I don't know the cost.

Eric

[fleinbach]

Gerald,I totally agree with you on this one. But that's not to say I do not agree with you Eric also. That may sound wishy-washy but I will try to explain.

I would say that possibly in a high production scenario such as yours Eric it may be prudent to follow the recommended factory procedures to get the maximum life from your tool. If I were in your situation I might choose the path you have taken to follow the procedures as close as possible. If the tool will be cutting almost constantly possibly as much as 16 hours per day the 10 minute warm up becomes insignificant.

Now here is my reasoning for not following the recommendations to a T. There are people who are meticulous about maintenance, some warranted and some to the extreme.

My ShopBot will never be used for high production. In the past two years I would estimate I have run the ShopBot between 600 and 800 hours. That's 300 to 400 hours a year. Consider that these are mostly small runs somewhere between 10 minutes to one hour for most files. I may make from one to five cutting operations in a day. There can be an hour or two lag between cuts. My planning is not that good that I can prepare to remember to turn on the spindle for a 10 minute warm up before each operation.

A shop running 16 hours per day would put over 4000 hours of use on the spindle. That's 10 times the use per year that I will put on it. I believe I read somewhere that with proper maintenance a spindle will run for 10,000 hours before needing a rebuild. Even if I were to cut that in half by not maintaining it as recommended I will still get 10 years of use before needing a rebuild. To me it is more of a nuisance to have to wait 10 minutes several times a day than worry about getting twice as much life out of it before the rebuild.

In 1970 I purchased my first router from Montgomery Ward's. In the past 35 years I have done thousands of hours of work with that router. I have never replaced one thing in all that time and it is still running just fine.

[gerald_d]

The "nursing" aspects of spindles all revolve around the bearings used in the spindles. Any discussion on the life, treatment and rebuild of spindles is essentially a discussion on ball bearings.

Ball bearing sizes are pretty standardised and therefore it is possible to fit bearings from a wide range of suppliers (and to a wide range of qualities and prices) into a given spindle. A $10 bearing will fit into a spindle and it will give some hours of use - while a $200+ ceramic-balled bearing will give a much, much longer life (if treated correctly).

Having spoken to a couple of furniture manufacturers around here, these guys tend to go for the $20-$30 bearings that last about a year (without warm-ups/cool-downs). I also spent some time in a maintenance shop and saw that I could manage to do a bearing change by myself - this gave me the confidence to start looking out for a used spindle. But I will be looking for one with a spring-loaded top bearing that is easier to set up. And I will decide the bearing supplier/spec after getting the spindle and after doing some more homework, and after seeing what is inside the actual spindle that I would have purchased.

The guys around here are not wild about the Colombo brand (which is the traditional Rolls Royce of spindles) - there are a lot of challengers to the "Rolls Royce" with lower maintenance costs.

[elcruisr]

Frank, I don't know where you read 10,000 hours for spindle life. The factory says 4,000 to 5,000 with proper care. We didn't warm up our first one and got just over 2,000 hours.

Gerald, I know of some furniture manfs that take the same tack. They get considerably less life from their bearings though, changing out every 40 to 60 days. Maybe they think it's cheap but that kind of downtime would cost me more than the money I saved on bearings in lost production. Maybe that's one of the reasons so many have gone under over here...

I agree that the approach depends on the business and level of usage, for me one day of downtime can really hurt (One shift down will cost me about the price of the rebuild, two days and I can buy a spindle for the lost time) and so we have to take care of our tools for maximum production life.

Eric

[gerald_d]

Eric, the 40-60 day guys must be using the $10 "skateboard" quality bearings. Your 2000 hour experience with your first set correlates to the 1 year that our local furniture guys are talking about (50 weeks at 40hr/week) and where I would aim to be with a DIY bearing change taking less than an hour.

[fleinbach]

Eric

I very well could be mistaken about the 10,000 hours. But I would be very happy with 2000 hours as that would give me about five years before a rebuild. Like you a said each business varies in its needs I agree with that wholeheartedly.

[normand]

http://www.worldofpower.co.uk/acatalog/Routers.html The big dewalt router at the bottom of the page look powerfull but dewalt site show noting about it. Only in UK ?

[Brady Watson]

The DW627 appears to be a UK exclusive. Why not just get the Milwaukee one? I think that it is probably the best non-spindle out there and is referred to as a 'production' router.

-Brady

[hespj]

"Dewalt DW627, ROUTER MOTOR UNIT, 2000w"

I considered this, but it's twice the price of a similar power router (and seems to be single speed). We are given the output power which is useful. At least it would useful if other routers had the output power given for comparison.

[hespj]

But now I'm begining to wonder.

"heavy duty induction motor designed for continuous heavy duty use"
"with corresponding torque for heavy cutting work"

http://www.powertoolsuk.co.uk/webcat/details.asp?ProductCode=DW627&id=1381

I see they have a 110v version. I'm sure you could get one shipped to the US.

[gerald_d]

John, the M12x1 collet nut size worries me a bit. If a collet nut has a 12mm internal thread, then the max tool shank size is going to be around 8mm. The collet spanner is only 14mm, so I am pretty sure it will not take 1/2" or 12mm shank bits. If it is going to be used for smaller bits turning no faster than 18000rpm, then it will last a long time - but so will any other brand of router.

Methinks the sales guys have found a novel way of tying a 12mm figure to this router, when it cannot take 12mm bits. Have a look at the subtle change of wording for the other models, and see how much bigger those spanners are. link (http://www.dewalt.co.uk/products.asp?category=Woodworking/Routers&mktid=2&lid=1)

[beacon14]

from the pictures and descriptions at the link Gerald provided it appears that the DW627 does not come with a collet at all but a threaded shaft that you can attach your own collet to? Then what are the spanners for?

[gerald_d]

David, I think you are right - there probably is no collet at all. Even the spare parts list (http://www.toolshopdirect.co.uk/parts/list/Dewalt_Wood_Working/Routers) doesn't show one for the DW627 while it is clearly shown on the other models.

[normand]

http://www.tylermachinery.com/1.Product.Line.Info/Tyler/Router.html This might be an alternative look heavy maby too heavy.I cannot send email to get more info

[normand]

5288 I made different attachement to use different tool like die grinder, dremel, drill. A sledge hammer could be use to drive nails.

[richards]

I just finished running my first day's production, in MDF and Baltic Birch, with a 3hp Colombo Spindle. The results, compared to the 7518 Porter-Cable are almost unbelievable.

- The cut is much smoother to the touch
- One pass at -0.70 inch instead of two at -0.35
- Move speeds increased to 6 ips from 4 ips
- RPM was dialed in at 18,000 instead of 19,000 to 21,000 with the PC (RPM and feed rate based on 0.020 chip load).
- No ear muffs necessary
- Average amps drawn was ~ 6 (240 VAC 1-phase)
- Entire day's production finished in three hours instead of 7-9 hours

No problems with static or erratic moves after installing USB jumper suggested by Jim Zaccarro.

My suggestion is that if you have an Alpha, buy a spindle.

[gerald_d]

Thanks for that feedback Mike.

[richards]

Three days of running a spindle (or trying to run a spindle) has been frustrating! The first day was almost perfect - after installing the USB jumper suggested by Jim Zaccarro. The work, as posted above, was fast and accurate.

Day two was a total loss. The alpha wouldn't run more than 10-15 SECONDS at a time before showing a false input signal of some sort. So, the day was spent trouble-shooting - with no improvement at the end of the day.

Day three was the same as day two, except that MAJOR trouble-shooting was in effect.
- Temporarily by-passed the emergency stop button - with some improvement
- Temporarily disconnected the dust collector - with some improvement
- Replaced the USB cable - major improvement ($30 Belkin from CompUSA, 6 ft)
- Replaced original wiring on emergency stop switch with shielded cable and Z-zero plate (activated shield) - some improvement
- Unclamped Z-zero alligator clip from frame ground and isolated the clip - voila everything works!

That is correct - after thirty plus years of designing and programming process control computers, I had violated the cardinal rule that you never connect chassis ground to signal ground. Until today, the fact that I had clamped the alligator clip on the Z-zero plate to a mounting bolt on the control box instead of clamping it to something electrically non-conductive, AS CLEARLY INSTRUCTED BY SHOPBOT IN THE INSTALLATION MANUAL, went unnoticed. When I was shortening the Z-zero cable and connecting the shield to chassis ground, I noticed that the alligator clip was connected to a ground point on the controller board and I started wondering why signal ground would be connected to chassis ground via the alligator clip. Finally the almost burned out light turned on in my head, and I knew that I had been the cause of my own troubles.

The moral is to follow the manual exactly.

(By the way, I've continually run a spoil board surfacing routine over and over for four hours without a single glitch - after isolating the alligator clip.)

[gerald_d]

While talking of spindles and grounding, here is some stuff to make you lose some sleep:

Bearing Currents (http://www.greenheck.com/technical/tech_detail.php?display=files/Product_guide/fa117_03)
In Google (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD%2CGGLD:2005-07%2CGGLD:en&q=grounding%2Bbearings)

[mikejohn]

Just when I was thinking how good a spindle might be


..............Mike

[gerald_d]

Nah Mike, the spindles are okay (did I say that?), but it seems that the VFD's cause little googly currents where you don't want them. Makes me wonder if there are good VFD's and bad VFD's - some brands may make bigger googlies. Also makes me wonder if the ceramic bearings have a longer life because they are non-conductive? Do spindles have shaft grounding brushes?

[mikejohn]

I did say thinking

[richards]

The saga continues ... This morning when I went out to the shop with the expectation of spending several pleasurable hours putting the spindle through its paces, I had the same types of errors that have plagued me all week. (At one point Myrna, my wife, said I was beginning to remind her of the leading character in the movie "Pure Luck".) No matter what I did, if the spindle's breaker was turned on, whether or not the spindle was actually turning, the files that were being air cut kept failing. With the spindle's breaker off, everything worked as perfectly as it had for the last year when I ran the PC 7518 router.

Finally, in desperation, I called every computer store in Salt Lake to find a USB to Serial Bridge. CompUSA only had the Belkin brand, which was listed on the Forum as a brand that wasn't compatible with Shopbot. It turned out that BestBuy had a Dynex brand adapter ... and, it turned out that the new adapter fixed the problem.

So far, after two hours of air cutting every file that failed this morning, the alpha and spindle have performed perfectly. As is usually the case, the cause of the problem perfectly matched 99% of the error messages - communication problem - and replacing the only part that delt with communications fixed the problem. Well, like I've said before, I always pick the hardest way to solve the most simple problems.

[jthelen]

Gentleman,
I think we would all agree that we would all have spindles if we could afford them.
I know I would love to have one and was telling my new boss so the other day.
I work for an electric motor manufacture and my boss is our motor designer.
After telling him my woos, he said we could designed one, what would you want it to do.
Do you just want a low cost spindle that is quite and maintains the horsepower, or do you want one that cost the same as what is out there but has more features?

So here are my questions...
How low cost would a low cost spindle have to be before it would be a no brainer?
What RPM range would you want?

On the other end of the spectrum what feature do you wish your the present spindles had that they don't have now?
This is you chance to have a spindle designed to the needs of a Shopbotter.

I would like input from Ted and the rest of the Shopbot crew as well.

Thanks
Jim Thelen

[richards]

Jim,

My biggest requirement is that the spindle/vfd package create no electrical noise. After nine-months and hundreds of dollars in modifications, I'm still getting enough electrical noise to ruin full sheets of material several times a day. With the spindle off and the machine in air-cut mode, I can run forever without problems, but as soon as I start the spindle I can count on losing every third or fourth sheet of material. I'm literally to the point of removing the spindle and going back to a router.

[paco]

Oouch! Really?!

[elcruisr]

Mike, we had some noise problems early on as well. Don't know if this will help you but have you tried just moving the control box further away? One other thing, and this sounds wierd but it got rid of the final glitch. We had an RF engineer in the shop one day and I still would get a wierd glitch every few days. He told us that considering the RF field we operated in to try rotating the control box 90 degrees and putting ferrite loops at each end of the suspect wires. Worked like a charm and the problem disappeared.

I still think it all involves alot of smoke and mirrors sometimes......

Eric

[richards]

Eric,
I've mounted the VFD on the wall as far as I can from the Shopbot control box. (Another user, just a few miles away, has his VFD mount directly to the back of his shopbot's control box - must be the luck of the draw.)

Tell me more about the ferrite loops. Do you just pass the lines through the ferrite loop, or do you wind the lines through and around the ferrite loops? Which lines (input, stepper drive lines, spindle power line, spindle drive line)?

[gerald_d]

Mike, look in this (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/show.cgi?tpc=26&post=29641#POST29641) thread.

It takes two to tango - the emitter and the receiver. Maybe it is time to do something about the susceptible receiver?

[tuck]

Mike, if all else fails, then here ya go:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00007FPJK/104-5632204-1884724?v=glance&n=228013

Be sure and read the Customer Reviews. I'm thinking this will be my next router after my old PC bites the dust.

[evan]

Jim,
How low cost would a low cost spindle have to be before it would be a no brainer?
Free! But seriously, anywhere between $1,000.000 and $2,000.00 including the VFD. I'm not sure that that is even reasonable but I would have oppted for a spindle over a router on my original purchase for that price.
What RPM range would you want?
from 3,000 to 18,000
3 HP 230 Single Phase
An electric fan as apposed to a shaft driven fan.


just my two cents

[paco]

Maybe the VFD unit could be simplified... would that lower the cost?... is this possible? I personnaly would NOT look at getting the 3HP spindle any cheaper.

The 5625 is sure a good (better) router but a spindle is simply THE TOOL for continuous CNC operations... right?!

[gerald_d]

An older post on spindle pricing here (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/show.cgi?tpc=312&post=28318#POST28318).

[elcruisr]

Mike,
You wind the wire around and through the ferrite loop at least three times I'm told. We were having a problem with the e-stop wire picking up noise and this stopped it. I'm told it's a ferrite at each end of the run to be really effective.

Eric

[richards]

Eric,
Adding a bunch of ferrite cores seems to have cured the electrical noise problem. My local electronics store had some 'cam shell' cores that fit around the input lines for $1.30 each. I also bought some standard cores to use with the lines going to the stepper motors; however those cores will require removing the pins from the Molex connectors before the cable will fit.

In any case, I ran the alpha for more than an hour with no measureable error. (I have some preset combination squares that I use to check the distance of the carriage from the ends of the x-axis when the machine in at its 'rest' location.)

Gerald,
Thanks for the heads-up on the reactors and the grounding of the USB-serial cable. I have grounded my USP-serial cable. By the way, the reactor from Automation Direct seems to be a ferrite core. If the noise problem re-occurs, I'll added the reactors.

For those who are wondering what a ferrite core is, here's two photos:


5289
The ferrite core can be seen at the bottom of the VFD on the signal cable.


5290
I should have included a ruler in the photo. This core measures 1-1/4 inches long.

After posting this, I received some excellent help from Harold Weber, including photo showing his installation.

Thanks to all of you who offered suggestions.
-Mike

[watswood]

Mike,
Don't give up. Your problem WILL be resolved. I too had some emi problems with my spindle at first. It brought back memories of my former carreer, an emi/rfi test engineer (20 years ago, so there are lots of cob webs). Anyhow, I have 2 possible solutions for you, along with the above mentioned ones. The first, and the cheapest, is to lower your carrier frequency. Check your vfd manual. If you are running a 3hp the default is the max at 15khz. This is unnecessarily high and the worst setting for emi. Try 12k, if that doesn't pass your test then lower it to 9k. Don't go below 6k as the motor will not like the waveform. I dusted off my 25 year old oscilloscope and monitored the output at different carrier frequencies and 15k is nasty in terms of noise spike amplitude and harmonic content. Look at the chart in the vfd manual and it will explain a little bit about the pros and cons of different carrier frequencies. If you have the time try many different frequencies between 9 and 15khz as emi issues are often tuneable.
The next possible cure is to add a load reactor between the vfd and the spindle. This is something I recently added and all of my noise related issues are over. Once again I monitored the output and the noise spikes to the spindle were greatly reduced and the waveform started to take on a sinusoidal form,though I wouldn't call it a sine wave by any means. I ran some tests with the load reactor installed, set my vfd to 15khz, removed the sheilds from the limit switch cables and had not had one problem. This tells me that I snubbed the source of the emissions, and you can't get better than that. Before I purchased my Columbo, I spoke with reps at Fimec and Perske, and they both swear by the use of these load reactors as they both wanted to sell me the spindle with them. One other benefit is that my spindle now runs about 5-10 degrees cooler.
Give me a call if you like. I would be glad to help you through this.
Eugene

[gerald_d]

Mike, I have no doubt that that "zero phase reactor" is ferrite, as I said in the other thread. Notice that it is a rather large ferrite - about 2.5" in diameter.

The "load reactor" that Eugene speaks of might be something else - more of a "transformer"?

[richards]

Eugene,

Thanks for the information on the carrier frequency. Just as you stated, my VFD was set at 15khz. By changing the 02-03 parameter, I've tried setting the carrier frequency to 12khz, 10khz and 9khz. Since 9khz seems to work fine with the spindle running at speeds of 10,000 to 18,000 rpm, I'll try the 9khz setting for a while.

Gerald,
You consistently give solid advice with references to other information. Unfortunately, I already had the ferrite beads installed before I read your reference to Automation Direct. As soon as I determined that their device was a ferrite core, I stopped reading (because the little ferrite cores that I had just installed were working). Now, going back to the thread that you referenced, I realize that you had a lot more information listed. Thanks for your help.

TO SHOPBOT:
It might be a very good idea to include the necessary ferrite cores in the spindle packages. Fighting this noise problem for nine-months, wasting sheet after sheet of material, and then learning that the problem could have been eliminated by adding $13.00 worth of small cores and/or $21.00 for a large core is frustrating. (However, I must accept total blame for not studying the VFD manual. The solution, as Gerald pointed out, is in the manual.)

[gerald_d]

This "Router Package (http://www.ekstromcarlson.com/router_packages.htm)" includes a "phase reactor to smooth the voltage curve to the motor, improve the operating efficiency, increase drive system reliability, reduce harmonics, filter power line disturbances, reduce surge currents, reduce dv/dt, extend transistor life, reduce motor noise and temperature, improve true power factor, and increase motor life." There is a picture of the "phase reactor", and it appears to be one of these (http://www.mtecorp.com/reactor.html). Has more of a transformer appearance. Meant to be placed on the input side of the VFD? These (http://www.galco.com/scripts/cgiip.exe/WA/WCat/Catalog.htm?searchName=MTE&searchDesc=surge&listty pe=Catalog&promo=&search-part) folk have shopping carts for them.

[mikejohn]

I was teetering on the brink of changing from my trusty router to a spindle, when this latest series of threads popped up, and scared the pants off me.
It does appear, however, that solutions are available, and not too expensive.
Is it possible for anyone to suggest a set up that is most likely not to induce the noise problem?
Where to site the VFD, where to place ferrite rings, where to place the load reactor, how to achieve the ideal VFD settings.
Unfortunately, never having seen a VFD or spindle in my life, I can't begin to evaluate the size of the problem.

What is the lowest total price to get into a reasonable spindle set up?

With a spindle on a late model PRT96 (with Alpha carriages etc.) could I cut deeper/faster than with a router?

..............Mike

[gerald_d]

My experience with the spindle has been rather short, so I am not really qualified to make the comparison. But I am not really convinced it is worth the money. Maybe I have routers that are far better than what everyone else is using as a reference, or a spindle that is not as fantastic as everyone else's, but I don't see that quantum leap from router to spindle that justifies the price tag and headaches.

However, I will probably change my tune if I needed to use (molding) cutters that would really draw horsepower.

Another essential "accessory" that has been kept secret here is the thermistor relay. Spindles have thermistors in them that "trip" when they get too hot. But it is only the sensor - it doesn't actually have a means of telling you that it is now too hot. For that you have to add a thermistor relay which doesn't come cheap.

[tuck]

I am gonna make a wild assumption and guess that a proper router is going to fill most folk's needs vs. a spindle. Like a dedicated vacuum table, it seems that a spindle is more for relentless production work where you're cutting up a truck-load of sheet material everyday, 6 to 10 hours a day, 5 or 6 days a week. A spindle would seem to be worth the $$$ for that purpose if for no other reason than it's quieter than a production router.

That being said, one needs to ask him/herself how their CNC will be or is used. If you're cutting HDU foam board, expanded PVC, cast acrylic and stuff like that, what the heck do you need 5 horse power for? All of that stuff can be cut/milled/routed very nicely with a 1 1/2 hp router, nevermind a 3 1/4 hp brute.

I suspect that a lot of guys, like myself, get caught up in the "Tim the Toolman" syndrome, in that "more power will fix everything". Recently, a new client had me cutting out .125" aluminum letters. I had to go slow, .750ips, and keep things lubed with a can of WD-40 and wear ear plugs, but I got it done. As I was cutting it I was thinking, "Man, maybe THIS would necessitate upgrading to a big spindle." But jobs cutting stuff like that come few and far between for me, so I'm sticking with my router.

[mziegler]

I'm also sticking to my noisy 3 1/4 PC router. Until I get big production runs, I see no advantage for the spindle. Mark

[richards]

After reading and re-reading this forum and receiving several emails from Harold Weber, it appears that for the Colombo 3hp spindle connected to the VFD022B21A Delta 240VAC single phase VFD that, at a minimum, the RF220X00A Zero Phase Reactor (first referenced by Gerald in a post above - costing $21.00 from Automation Direct) should be attached to the 3-phase output lines between the VFD and the spindle (mounted as close as possible to the VFD). It also appears that a second RF220X00A could be used on the input AC lines to keep the VFD from messing up other equipment on the same circuit/breaker/sub-panel.

Looking at page 3-6 of the Delta User Manual, the following devices are listed as optional:

INPUT side of the VFD

Circuit Breaker/Line Fuse
"Current rating of the breaker shall be 4 times maximum of input current rating."
Delta Manual p. B-1
Bussman JJN-60 or similar

Magnetic Contactor
(Already supplied by Shopbot)

Input AC Line Reactor
No part number given by Delta
(Single Phase input power)
RL-01801
GALCO - $138.60

(3-phase input power)
RL-01201 (3%)
GALCO - $106.20
-OR-
RL-01202 (5%)
GALCO - $112.50
(Read warning about voltage drop on GALCO Tech Tips Load Reactors page)

Zero Phase Reactor
RF220X00A
AutomationDirect - $21.00

EMI Filter
RF022B21BA
AutomationDirect - $91.00

OUTPUT side of the VFD:

Zero Phase Reactor
RF220X00A
AutomationDirect - $21.00

Output AC Line Reactor
No part number given by Delta
RL-01201 (3%)
GALCO - $106.20
-OR_
RL-01202 (5%)
GALCO - $112.50
(Read warning about voltage drop on GALCO Tech Tips Load Reactors page)

Harold Weber suggests comparing parts and prices at DrivesWarehouse.

In my case, buying 2-Zero Phase Reactors (ferrite cores), 2-Line/Load Reactors, and 1-EMI filter will cost about $400, or about 11% of the cost of the 3-hp spindle. I've wasted material costing more than that EACH WEEK during my busier times. You can be assured that I'll be placing an order today for those 'optional' parts.

Yesterday I installed ferrite cores on all of the input lines (as shown above in a previous post). I also installed a ribbon-cable ferrite core on each of the ribbon cables that connect the Oriental Motors stepper drivers to the Shopbot control board for a total cost of less than $40. Those ferrite cores have worked perfectly in suppressing glitches, but I'm not taking any chances. The other parts will be added.

[richards]

Addressing the other question about whether to stay with a router or move up to a spindle. I would still vote for the spindle.

When it runs properly, it is worth every penny that it costs. The only problems that I've had with the spindle has been electrical noise. Being able to dial in the exact RPM needed for a cutter and for the material being cut has given me total control - and has saved a small fortune in cutter costs .

On the other hand, the PC7518 router that I started with just was not big enough to cut cabinet parts efficiently. Because it was so underpowered, I had to run at a high RPM to allow for the router 'bogging down'. The high RPM cooked cutters.

[harold_weber]

I privately sent Mike several photos of my setup because of the image quality restrictions here. I'll add this photo and a few words for all y'all. This photo shows 2 line reactors (the blue things) that I installed in the lines going to the spindles on the router table. Normally there is a steel cover on this box to keep electrical noise in and keep projectiles out....


5291

I looked up my 2004 E-mail from the Hitachi Senior Application Engineer I corresponded with about my setup, and his note to me said: "Normally best results are obtained by placing the reactors as close to the motors as possible but having them nearer to the inverter is acceptable as well."

Please keep in mind that my setup is to reduce electrical noise from the lines BETWEEN the VFD and the spindle. You may also need to reduce noise that the VFD introduces into the lines that feed it...............

Harold

[gerald_d]

Mike, I don't have any external devices around my VFD (except for the thermistor relay) and I don't have interference problems on the (non-ShopBot) control system of that CNC router. But I don't like the temperature that the spindle is producing on its casing here at our 30+ C ambient temperatures. So I would like to clean the waveform that the VFD sends to the spindle....

You've spent the morning doing the homework - what should I put between the VFD and the spindle?

[watswood]

Mike,
Good to hear you are up and running again.
As for the load reactor, sizing it is not as simple as it may seem -- for us. The problem is that these reactors are sized in the charts for a fixed frequency - 60hz. If we size them for our spindle nameplate specs, 300hz,220v,15a(5hp) then we would need a 25hp reactor. However, if I purchased a 25hp reactor and never came close to the 15amp full load current and seldom ran my spindle more than 250hz, then the 25hp reactor would do nothing and I may as well not have it installed. I purchased a 7.5hp 3% reactor for my 5hp spindle and based on my real world use of the spindle it will give me plenty of room to draw more power without droping too much voltage and still be effective at no load/low power situations. Because of this I would highly recomend not getting a 5% reactor and possibly getting the next size up 3%. The formula you should look at is in the sizing the line reator in the galco website. The 3% and 5% indicate how much voltage drop you will get at 'full load' current.

I concur with your statement about the spindle vs. router. One thing I would like to add is that I have not yet had one bit slip in the spindle collet, something that happened about once a week with the pc router. Talk about ruining material!

[richards]

Eugene,
Would you check my figures. My normal amp draw for my 3hp spindle (as shown on the Delta VFD's display) is between 4 and 6.5 amps going rarely to 8 amps. The LOAD reactor RL-01201, recommended by Galco's sizing chart, has Fundamental Amps = 12, Maximum Continuous Amps = 18, Inductance = 1.25mh, and Watts Loss = 26.

The LINE reactor RL-01801, again recommended by Galco's sizing chart for 1-phase 240VAC, 3-hp use, has Fundamental Amps = 18, Maximum Continuous Amps = 27, Inductance = 0.8mh, and Watts Loss = 36.

Have I ordered the correct reactors?


Gerald,
I'm putting a zero phase reactor (ferrite core), part no. RF220X00A as close as possible to the output side of the VFD. Next, in series to the ferrite core, I'm placing the RL-01201 load reactor (subject to Eugene's advice). Also, I'm planning on installing both reactors in a metal enclosure mounted a few inches to the SIDE of the VFD in order to not block convection air flow to the cooling fins on the VFD. I'm not touching the spindle end of the cable. It will remain exactly as it came from Shopbot/Colombo. (If the heat is getting to you in your part of the world, come on up to Utah. This morning the temperature was about 40F with an expected high of about 65F - Spring time is wonderful. Although I am planning on adding some large heat sinks to the back of the Alpha's control box before things heat up this summer.)

[tuck]

I have no doubt that a spindle is superior to a router for certain applications, but from this thread it seems that you have to be an electrical engineer to plug one up and have it run correctly. Any idiot (like me) can have a router plugged up and making dust in no time. I've never had a bit slip either, that I know of.

It's just all about what you need your machine to do, how you make money with it, etc. I've cut plenty of 3/4" MDO and MDF, but not on a "production" basis and my old PC got the job done, even if I did it in 2 or 3 passes, no big deal.

[richards]

One of my sons has just about finished the startup phase on a cabinet shop company. To make things efficient, the Shopbot will be used to cut only melamine coated particle board. (Doors, face frames, drawers, etc. will be purchased from other suppliers.) Each 49x97 inch sheet can be cut in 2-1/2 to 3 minutes, depending on the layout. To keep efficiency as high as possible, there can be no cutter changes, making it necessary to handle cut panels at least two times, once as a full sheet and the second time as the individual part when shelf-pin holes, drawer slide holes, system holes, etc. are cut. In this type of operation, single pass cuts are essential, making a spindle necessary. As soon as the spindle problems are solved, I'll start on the vacuum system. (My little Fein will hold full sheets, but it has problems holding smaller sized parts in place.)

To make things even more interesting (complicated?), I'm testing parts and pieces to make a smaller table-top sized router, similar to the Shopbot table-top model, but large enough to handle cabinet end-panels. That router, if it ever gets built, will probably have servo motors, ball screws, and linear rails to reduce the 'chatter' that I can't eliminate with the shopbot. My way of thinking is to have a purpose for each tool, but to know the limitations of the tool. Forcing something to do more than it was designed to do can be counter-productive.

[gerald_d]

Is the reactor selection also related to the length of cable? I see some examples mentioning cable lengths of 500 to 700 feet! And I seem to recall that the Delta manual says these devices are needed for long cables....?

[richards]

Gerald,
I spent a few hours last night looking at specs and manuals for VFDs similar in size to the Delta VDF022B21A that I have.

Here are some quotes:

"AC reactors used on the output side of an inverter protect the motor insulation against drive short circuits and IBGT reflective wave damage. The reactor also provides output harmonic distorion reduction to the motor." Hitachi SJ100

"The purpose of these noise filters is to reduce the inverter electrical noise so the operation of nearby electrical devices is not affected. Some applications are governed by particular regulatory agencies, and noise suppression is mandatory. In those cases, the inverter must have the corresponding noise filter installed. Other applications may not need noise suppression, unless you notice electrical interference with the operation of other devices." Hitachi L100

"When installed on the output side fo the AC drive, line reactors protect the AC drive from short circuits at the load. Voltage and current waveforms from the drive are enhanced, reducing motor overheating and noise emmissions." GS2Accessories - Overview

"Output line reactors protect the motor insulation against AC drive short circuits and IGBT reflective wave damage, and also 'smooth' the motor current waveform, allowing the motor to run cooler. They are recommended for operating 'non-inverter-duty' motors and when the length of wiring between the AC drive and motor exceeds 75 feet." DURAPluse AC Drives Accessories Overview

[watswood]

Mike,
The line reactor looks fine. You should also be OK with the load reactor. As your spindle requires more current the reactor will drop more voltage. The good side of the load reactor you chose is that it will shunt your noise even more, and posibally run your spindle cooler. The downside is that you will not get full power, but it doesn't appear you need it. When you get things set up, run something with the heaviest possible cutting and see if you notice anything different with the spindle from what you are now getting. If you do, get a lower inductance ractor such as the 5hp(1801).
When you are finished with all this you should have a very clean environment and a happy vfd and spindle.

Mark,
Sorry I'm blowing you out with the tecnical stuff. You have a very good point. Sometimes leaving well enough alone is a good thing. With that said if you did bite the bullet and get a spindle you probably would never go back.

[phil_o]

I started this thread and WOW has it gotten a lot more technical than I expected. I guess that's good, there's a lot of discussion going on here. I need to ask a fairly simple question.
I know that a motor noise produced by a spindle is far less than the noise a router makes. My question concerns the noise made by the cutter cutting the material. A V-Carving bit in a router makes less noise than a 1/4" straight bit in a router. Is there less "cutter noise" with a spindle? My guess would be no.

[richards]

Actually, as odd as it seems, when you first start using a spindle there will probably be MORE cutter noise, simply because you'll be making heavier cuts at faster speeds. I know that when I first used some CMT spiral cutters, they screamed (I was spinning them too fast for the feed speed). However, after slowing down the spindle to the 13,000 range and speeding up the feed speed to the 6-ips range, things quieted down. After you've found the correct feed speed and the correct spindle speed, the noise level will be about as low as possible. Remember though that you may very well be removing more material with each pass, which means more work is being done, which means that there may be more vibration, therefore there may well be more noise.

[beacon14]

Mike,

For that level of production I would look into ShopBot's air-drill. If all you need are 5mm holes it's like having a toolchanger or 2nd Z axis. I'm getting ready to add one to my rig. For the labor it would save you having to handle each piece twice it sounds like it would pay for itself in no time.

[Ryan Patterson]

Mike,
I agree with David the air-drill would work great. When I got my but they did not have the air drill. So a got a second Z and mounted the drill to it. I do not need to make any tool changes and when the cutting is done the only thing I need to do is edge band then assemble. I have been cutting melamine a 9 in/sec at 14,000 RPM with a 3/8” up/down 1 pass. The bit will last about 60 sheets.
Ryan

[richards]

David,
That might work better. So far I'm still in the stage where I'm trying various methods to see what is most productive. Normally, I'll dedicate an entire sheet to one part. For instance, all of my base cabinet sides are 30.2362 inches tall (768mm + plastic levelers + cabinet top = standard cabinet height) x 23.23 inches deep (24 inches - back - edgeband thickness). By doing that, I get six sides per sheet in about 2-1/2 minutes. In that configuration, the Shopbot is used more like a panel saw than a router.

Since there can be quite a variety of hole patterns for side panels (shelves only, 1-drawer with 1-shelf, two drawers, three drawers, etc.) I've just been stacking the sides, edge banding them, and then 5mm drilling them according to their configuration.

The final step is countersinking screw holes on the reverse side of the side panels. The Shopbot does an excellent job of v-drilling countersinks, making it easy for the assembler to use a couple of clamps to align the sides to the bottom, drill 1/8-inch holes at the point of the countersink, and then screw the pieces together. There is no glue used, just particle board screws.

Anyway, I'm way off topic, but I thought I'd share the convoluted thought process of a left-handed programmer who's trying to fit into the CNC world (and explain between the lines how electrical noise can ruin a lot of material in a very short time).

[tuck]

Mike said; "In that configuration, the Shopbot is used more like a panel saw than a router."

You know, a good panel saw is a wonderful tool to have in any shop that deals with sheet material. I ordered one from Lowes about 4 years ago, a Milwaukee. It's simply great for rectangular and square cuts and even ripping long lengths off of a 4' x 8' and is plenty accurate for most needs, up to 1/32". Mine has an adjustable sliding stop which is very handy for multiple cuts of the same size.

If you're gonna do a lot of square and/or rectangular cuts in your cabinet business, you might consider investing in a good panel saw. Mine was about $1600.00 with a few bells and whistles included. It can cut a heck of a lot faster than any CNC, with less waste and is a lot easier to load material in than humping it onto a CNC, especially when you're working by yourself. Just my 2 cents on panel saws. :-)

[richards]

Mark,
To me the big difference between a Shopbot and almost any other tool is that I can slide a sheet of material on the Shopbot, turn on the vacuum, start the program and then walk away from the machine until it finishes its job, with no operator. On all my other machines, I have to fiddle with stops, jigs, etc. and then I have to move the material past the cutter, whether it be a saw blade or some other type of cutter. Even though I don't consider myself to be particularly lazy, I do try to be efficient whenever I'm doing a repetitive task.

[tuck]

Oh, believe me Mike, I know what you mean. I'm a sign maker and rout a lot of HDU foam signs (routed down background with raised letters). A large one with a lot of copy on it can take a considerable amount of time, like several hours. (No, I don't have an Alpha.) My shop is next to my house, so after I get things going on the Bot, I come back in the house and some coffee or a cold beer, depending on what time of day it is. I'm in the house chillin' out and my Bot is out in the shop, working hard! :-)

I'm just saying that there IS more efficient ways to cut up sheet material in SOME instances than with CNC. See my arguement here:

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/29/12483.html?1143737410

[richards]

Here's a follow-up about the electronic noise that was discussed further up in this thread. Yesterday, I finished installing a Line Reactor, a Load Reactor and two Zero-Phase Reactors. With great anticipation, I started running the part file. To my complete amazement, within two minutes, I had an electrical glitch - just like before. It seemed like the only difference was that my wallet was about $400 lighter. After stomping around the shop for awhile, I continued testing, using various speeds, feed rates, etc. At about 4-ips the Alpha settled down and successfully cut the file. At that point I had just about decided to convert everything over to a Gecko system that I've been testing for several months; however, knowing that converting part files to G-Code files would take months, I decided to continue looking for the cause of the electrical noise. During that search, I learned more about the Alpha's controller than I had ever expected to know. I tried various step-degree settings, learning things that are probably only of interest to Shopbot and people like me who design and build process-control computers. After verifying that all connections looked tight, I closed the case and fumed.

Finally, about midnight, I noticed that my wireless card disconnected at irregular intervals. Bingo! Problem indentified! This morning, I removed the wireless card, as well as all of the non-shopbot programs on the control computer.

Today, at long last, I've run my modified spoil-board flattening file over and over and over and over with absolutely no glitches. There hasn't been any discernable problem all day long. To say that seeing my Alpha run as perfectly as I'd always hoped that it would run is an understatement. The machine works perfectly.

Now, just a word about all of the reactors that I installed. The spindle seems to run cooler and with no interference to radios and TVs. Looking at the lines with an oscilliscope showed almost perfect waveforms. My suggestion is that if you have a spindle, consider adding at least a Load Reactor and a Zero-Phase Reactor between the VFD and the spindle. Your cost should be around $150 or so. If you have multiple VFDs, adding a Line Reactor, a Zero-Phase Reactor and an EMI filter before the VFD would keep the VFDs from interfering with each other. In that case, your cost will be about $400.

And, by all means, if you have a wireless card and you're having electronic noise problems, remove the card!

[Brady Watson]

Mike,
Are you running 3 phase in the shop or single phase? The single phase VFDs seem to be a LOT more sensitive to noise etc than the 3 ph ones. I am running 230 3ph and I have zero issues with the radio, TV in the house, cordless & cell phones etc.

-B

[tuck]

Electronic noise? Line reactor? Load reactor? Zero-Phase reactors? Wireless cards? Oscilliscopes? VFD's? EMI filters? LAWD HAVE MERCY!!! WAAAAY over my wittle head!

My old (10 year) Porter Cable finally bit the dust today. Bad bearings, and I won't sink any more $$$ into it, so I ordered one of them Milwaukee 5625-20 production 3.50hp brutes for $269.00 and $6.50 shipping. It'll be here by Monday and I'll be making dust again Monday night, no problems. Plug and play. And it comes with a 5 year warranty! :-)

Mike, I've been following this thread and your problems with your spindle. I am NOT replying to say that you'd have been better off with a router. Your type of applications may certainly require a spindle. On the contrary, I wish I could AFFORD a spindle. But HOLY MOLY! I'll go through 10 or 12 more routers before I'll face the kind of problems you have had with that spindle! You're a better man than me, 'cause I would'a lost it and got out my sledge hammer a long time ago!

I'm glad you finally got everything resolved. Now get out there and make some dust!

[mikejohn]

Hey Mark!
Snap! My router gave up the ghost today also!
I have also been following the VFD problems thread, and have come to the conclusion that for my type of work the router is fine.
Also, how often could you replace a router before reaching the cost of installing a spindle?
Without the sensitive nature of the spindle as well

I will keep repeating on this forum that it is horses for courses, one mans solution is often the wrong answer for another man.

....................Mike

[richards]

Mark,
Wait just a minute until I get the horse and buggy ready for my next cross-country trip. I'm kidding of course. Just like you, I used a PC7518 for a year. During that time, it proved to be a good solid tool, although it lacked power and adjustability. If I were to go back to a router, I would buy the Milwaukee, just like you. HOWEVER, if you could have been in my shop today, and watched the spindle cut full depth at 10-ips without no bogging down, you might decide that the time saved by cutting sheet goods in one pass with a spindle is cheap compared to paying labor to do the same job at 3x the time with a router. I do realize that not everyone needs the brute force that a spindle provides, but the difference between a router and a spindle really is like comparing a horse and buggy to an SUV. As far as making dust goes, today I filled my Jet 2-hp dust collector three times. Not bad for someone using a spindle for the first time, eh? (In the past, I often filled my Dodge Dakota two or three times with scraped parts in a day.)

Brady,
I have 1-phase power. You're probably right about 1-phase being much more finicky than 3-phase. After reviewing comments by a lot of spindle users, it appears that those having little or no problems have 3-phase power.

Mike J.
You slipped in while I was writing. There are a lot of trade-offs with any tool. Before I bought the Alpha, I used a shaper, router table, jig saw and band saw, along with a lot of templates. It took forever to do almost nothing. The Alpha changed all of that. The spindle did for the Alpha what the Alpha did for my old way of doing things. Increasing productivity by an order of magnitude each year is something that I've always dreamed of being able to do.

[tuck]

Too many "Mike's" in here! LOL!

Mike John,...I'm buying the Milwaukee because of reviews from other ShopBotters that I've read on these boards... "Quiet,... but a real HOSS, plenty of torque and power, variable speeds, affordable, 5 YEAR WARRANTY!" YaHOOOOO!!!! :-)

Mike Richards,...You GO, brother! But it's like Mike John keeps saying; "Horses for Courses!" In my case, I mostly rout HDU foam. A 3/4 hp $90.00 router could do that all day and night, no problem. That stuff cuts like butter! But being a sign maker, I have to cut other materials as well, the toughest being thick ABS plastic and .125" aluminum. I don't have to cut that stuff everday, and certainly not on a production basis, but when I do I need a good powerful router, not really a spindle. Heck, my old Porter Cable was on it's last leg yesterday and still cutting through the aluminum,... screaming, moaning and complaining as it was! I just kept spraying on the WD-40 and whispering; "It'll all be over soon, Sweetie! You're going to the big router pile in the sky!" LOL!

I'm in Mike Johns' camp. It's "horses for courses!"

Peace! ;-)

[mikejohn]

Er! I fixed my router by re-newing the brushes


...............Mike

[watswood]

Mike R.,
It's good to hear you 'finally' got your system to work perfectly. Though I don't doubt that removing your wireless network card solved your problem, I do doubt that it was related to your vfd, especially with all the devices you recently added on. The vfd runs at 15khz plus harmonics while the wireless card runs at 2.4ghz. While my vfd will mess with my am radio it does nothing to fm radio or my other computer with a 2.4ghz wireless adapter. To test, I put my laptop with a wireless adapter right up to the vfd with spindle running and noticed no loss of signal strength. What the wireless card will do is interrupt your computer when it loses a network conection, that little red light you talked about. This happens because your computer may be on the fringe of your network. The real lesson here may be that we should disable devices and software that run in the background, especially for you alpha owners.
For those of you that have had problems with limit switchs and estops,such as myself, that 'is' vfd related noise and can be cured with numerous techniques as discussed above.
Brady,
Good point. I run a single phase 5hp and have had noise problems. It would make sense to me that 3 phase in and 3 phase out would be a cleaner system.
To All,
I ran a porter cable for 5 years and a spindle now for 1 year. I made the switch to reduce overall shop noise, which it did, to prevent my expensive bits from burning up prematurely due to running at too high an rpm, which it has, and to make deeper cuts with less vibration in the hardwoods that I cut, which it has. The expense was worth it for me. Now, if I can only get that tool-changer-spindle out of my head ($5000 for just the spindle!) Maybe I should just design things with fewer bit changes!

[bleeth]

I have the single phase setup for my 5hp spindle which means I'm using a 10hp 3ph vfd with no high leg line and so getting 5hp 1ph in and out. I recently moved the bot to a shop with 3ph power and want to know if it is possible to redo my vfd to 3ph without problems. (I'm sure I'll end up calling Texas on this but thought I'd check here first)

Dave

[watswood]

Dave,
Check to see what voltage your new 3phase power is. If it's 230v you're in good shape. If it's 460 volt you may need a new vfd.

[elcruisr]

Dave,
when we installed our second machine we hooked up the existing single phase vfd to our three phase shop power. No problem.

Eric

[jay_p]

I too am considering a switch to a spindle, but I can't find any info on the PDS site that tells me how many amps they draw maximum (at startup?). In other words, what size breakers would I need? Where can I find that info for the two smaller spindles that ShopBot sells?

Colombo 3HP High Frequency Spindle Model RS73
(#12504) 230v/3-phase
(#12513) 230v/single phase

Thanks

Jay

[imacarver]

We have a 3hp Columbo on our Shopbot with only a 30A 220V 1PH breaker. I have to say I am very impressed with the spindle, it is very quiet and has a lot of power behind it.

[imacarver]

We have actually have a 3hp HSD, not a Columbo spindle.

[evan]

I've ordered the HSD 4HP 220V 1PH Spinde from Shopbot and it comes with a Yaskawa 7.5HP Drive (Model# CIMR-V7CU25P54-7.5HP)and in the installation manual they recommend an Input RFI filter & an Input Reactor and also an Output RFI filter & an Output Reactor. So my questions (in reference to earlier in this thread)are:
1) What is the differance between an EMI filter and a RFI filter?
2) Should I install both?
3) Are Input/Output Reactors the same as Line/Load Reactors?
4) Should I still install Zero Phase Reactors and if so where?

I was going to go with Mike Richards suggestion:
"Now, just a word about all of the reactors that I installed. The spindle seems to run cooler and with no interference to radios and TVs. Looking at the lines with an oscilliscope showed almost perfect waveforms. My suggestion is that if you have a spindle, consider adding at least a Load Reactor and a Zero-Phase Reactor between the VFD and the spindle. Your cost should be around $150 or so. If you have multiple VFDs, adding a Line Reactor, a Zero-Phase Reactor and an EMI filter before the VFD would keep the VFDs from interfering with each other. In that case, your cost will be about $400."
But since reading Yakawa's manual I've confused myself. Any advise is welcome. I am going to have an electrician help install this but I want to know what is needed along with the hows and whys. Thank you in advance.

[richards]

Using the define:EMI and define:RFI functions of Google's search engine, shows that typically EMI (Electromagnetic Interference) and RFI (Radio Frequency Interference) are used interchangeably.

On my Spindle/VFD, I have one Input Reactor, one Output Reactor and one EMI filter. The Input Reactor keeps the VFD/Spindle from affecting other Spindles/VFDs that receive power from the same breaker box (which means overkill in my situation). The Output Reactor keeps the Spindle/VFD from affecting the Shopbot Controller (steppers, drivers, control circuits, etc.) The EMI filter keeps the VFD/Spindle from interfering with the TV and Radio (although, there is still some interference depending on the spindle speed and load).

If I were you, I would download the manual for the Yashkawa 7.5HP VFD and study it carefully. If it is similar to the Delta manual that is normally furnished with the Colombo spindles, it will have valuable information about reactors and emi filters. The VFD is a complex device with a lot of features. In your case (and in my case also), it has to take standard 1-phase 220VAC and convert it into 3-phase power. At the same time, it has to change the frequency from the standard 60-cycles to some other frequency so that the spindle runs at the desired speed. While all of the converting is going on, it keeps the torque constant at the spindle reqardless of the load (within reason). All of that converting at high amperage causes electrical interference. If you study the manual, you might find some settings that will give you even more value from your spindle.

[gerald_d]

Mike, a tiny correction to the above.... it keeps the speed constant at the spindle.... not the torque.

Evan, Input/Line reactors are the same thing (between the distribution box and the VFD), while Output/Load reactors are the same thing (between VFD and spindle). I only have a load reactor because I don't have EMI/RFI concerns and my only concern is to supply clean power to the spindle so that it runs smoother and cooler.

[richards]

Gerald,

I think you're right. I had to re-read the following from the PDS Colombo web site (technical section):

Power Curve

Colombo Electric Spindles are available in either Constant Power or Constant Torque. Both types offer advantages depending upon the operating speed for the cutter(s) used in your application.

Constant Torque electric spindles suit applications where maximum cutting power is required near maximum spindle speed. Their torque is constant so power increases steadily from zero at zero speed to full power at full speed.

Constant Power electric spindles provide flexibility for a wider variety of cutting tasks. They deliver more power at mid-range speeds but less power at maximum speed than constant torque spindles. Typical constant power ranges are 9000 - 18000 rpm, 12000 - 18000 rpm or 18000 - 24000 rpm. The selection depends upon the operating speed for the cutter range & material type.

Somehow, in my mind, I melded the words power and torque until they meant the same thing.

Starting with only a Load Reactor would be the prudent thing to do. If the shop is in a residential area, an EMI filter might keep your neighbors from cursing your ancestors. In my case, I had to put an end to the erratic cuts that I was getting (which turned out to be the wireless card and not the spindle/VFD) so I installed both reactors plus the EMI filter.

[phil_o]

Now that Shopbot is offering the HSD spindles what do Shopbotters think of them? How do they compare to Columbos? Are they as quiet?

[evan]

Thank you Mike and Gerald, what would I (we) do with out you. It's easier to make a decision with a little moral support (hand holding
). Since I'm in an industrial area and I'm not running another spindle, just a router, I think I'll start out with just the Load Reactor and progress from there. I've already downloaded the manual and am studing it. Slowly it sinks in.
Phil- as soon (arriving in a couple of weeks) as I get the new spindle up and running I'll let you know what I think of it.

Thanks again.

[michaelh]

How does Colombo compare to HSD spindles?

[evan]

Well I've been running my new HSD 4HP 220V 1PH spindle for a few weeks now and I think it's GREAT! It is electric fan cooled but it still runs a little louder than the Columbos I've heard. Still quieter than any router though. (Still running a Miwaukee on the second Z axis so I know what I'm talking about) And it has helped eliminate a lot of the chatter marks I've been frustrated by. (Seriously thinking of doing what Mike R. has done.) I'm very pleased with it up to this point. I run it 6 to 7 hours a day, 4 to 5 days a week.

[michaelh]

Thanks Evan

What can you tell me about Colombo

[patricktoomey]

Michael, I have a 5hp Colombo and have had very good luck with it. It's expensive but it's a very nice tool. Mine also has the electric fan and is so quiet I couldn't even believe it when I first started using it. I've heard equally good things about Colombo and HSD and from what I know I don't think you could go wrong with either. I'm not sure but I think the HSD's are not quite as expensive. The only thing I would do differently if I had to do it again is to go with a tool changer ready spindle. Now that I need a changer I have to get a whole new spindle which sucks.

[cncrob]

I am a CNC programmer and operator for a large furniture company. I use spindles costing $8000 and up. I also do small production work at home with my own CNC and to be honest I am just as happy with my PC router. If the price weren't so much I probably would buy a spindle, but right now I just can't justify spinding half as much for spindle as I did for my machine. Maybe one day though.

[bahed]

I think Shopbot is now offering a 2.25HP High Frequency Spindle made by HSD that is at about $2,000 - which, also includes the preprogrammed/pre-wired variable frequency drive (VFD)

That is still 5 times more than the cost of most routers. But I think it now becomes a lot easier to make the decision to go spindle vs. router.

[donrus]

Hi.... I have a 5hp Colombo on 5x12 Alpha. Purchaced it with my Alpha 2 1/2 years ago. Never have had a problem with it.... Quiet and smooth. I decided a year ago I need more tools and checked into adding another Z and putting a router on it. I was told that there was not enough room to add another Z with the 5 hp Colombo. If I had a 3hp there would not have been a problem. I think you can add the drill but I needed another bit. I wasn't told this at the time of purchase and I still haven't found anything on SB site that cautions this. Love my 5hp and can't justifiy the cost to down grade to have another Z.

Other than that I am generaly as happy as a pig in a puddle of mud with my SB..... ;-)

[Brady Watson]

Donald,
I have the 5HP Colombo as well & althogh you can't get 2 spindles in the same bay you \i(can} get a 5HP + a Milwaukee electric drill or a small 2HP router next to it. Depending on what your needs are, you can also fit the air drill in there. It gets to be a tight squeeze by the 5HP electrical box mounted on the spindle, but it can be done. Oh...and you *may* be able to get one of the new HSD 2.25HP spindles in there as I think they are smaller than the 3 HP ones...but I would check to be sure. 2 3HP Colombos side by side is a really tight squeeze!

-B

[donrus]

I had asked about putting in a 2nd Z and was told there wasn't enough room except for the air drill because of the 5hp Colombo's electric box. I had indicated that I wanted a router as 2nd Z and was tolded that wouldn't fit either.

At the time I wanted to router designs in MDF cabinet doors and the least I could get by with was 2 bits. I went through the method of cutting everything with 1 bit and then running them all again after a bit change...... to much work and went back to outsourcing MDF doors.

[artbronze]

Hi fellas,
Heres my 2 cents,Can,t afford a spindle but they sound nice. I really havnt found any limitations with my PC so far though. I've been doing intricate 3d in honduran mahogany with the PC with good results. The only thing I would change however would be making the thing quieter with an external fan. Heres a picture of some of my work.
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