G4 Question

[conceptmachine]

I plan on doing a g4 or ascension upgrade to my prt and would like to hear from some of you fellow botters who have done either of these upgrades.One question i have is if i do the g4 upgrade can i use mach software with it? The reason i ask is i've been programming cnc's for 10 years at my day job and the mach software is based on industry standard g code which i'm familiar with and i like having the options that mach offers.I'm not saying that the shopbot software is bad but it has limitations.So if any of you have any suggestions i would appreciate it.

shawn

[patricktoomey]

I did the Ascension upgrade for both the speed and resolution but also in large part for the ability to use GCode with Mach3. The communictions have never been dropped once, and I've tweaked Mach to add all my own macros, buttons, etc. to speed things up. The new Quantum version of Mach is awesome too. It has non-linear acceleration and deceleration (jerk control) so there is no more jerking at the start and stop of cuts and you can turn your speeds up higher. Everything is so smooth and fast it's amazing. My 3D cuts are now better than I could have ever hoped for and the cut times are less than half of what they used to be.

[jeffreymcgrew]

We did the 4G upgrade. It uses the standard Shopbot code, not G-code. It actually uses the same kind of control software your PRT does, it just uses the Alpha version with a different config file.

For us this was an advantage, for we haven't worked with G-code and don't really see any advantage to it for we're too busy to change horses mid-job. The 4G was nice for it just plugged right in and went to work. We had some communication problems with it due to USB problems with the laptop we had hooked to it, but now that those have been sorted out we're running at a little more than twice the speed we were before, and the cuts are super-smooth. My friend who's got an Alpha was pretty impressed by how quiet and smooth the motors are now on our upgraded PRT.

Seeing that you've got a bunch of G-code experience tho, maybe the Ascension would be the better way to go even tho it's more expensive. And while I'm sure it's got great support, I also really like having our upgrade come from Shopbot for I know it will work and when it doesn't I can call someone and figure out what I'm doing wrong LOL...

[richards]

Shawn,
Why not have the best of both worlds and buy the 4G and a PMDX breakout board? If you mount the Geckos (that are part of the 4G upgrade) so that you can get to their connectors, you can just build up two sets of wiring headers, one for the 4g controller card and one for the PMDX breakout board.

When you want to run Shopbot code, turn off the power, connect the headers to the 4g board and run the SBP files.

When you want to run G-code, turn off the power, connect the headers to the PMDX board, crank up your version of Mach 3 and run the TAP files.

With the 4g upgrade you'll already have everything that you need except for an $81 PMDX card, the $159 license for Mach 3 and the header/connectors.

[cjohnson]

While reading a recent post on the Ascension Forum, I realized that the Ascension market is definitly different than the Shopbot market. I won't say one is better than the other, just different markets. This Talkshopbot board is one of the greatest assests in my opinion for staying with the Shopbot products. Both the Ascension and the Bob Cambell designs (as well as others) stand on their own for their intended market. Mach software is still regularly being updated and supported and of course g-code is the cnc standard. Those are some strong qualities. However, in my opinion and where I am at today, the Shopbot package (product, support, forum, ect.) is hard to beat. Shopbot appears to regularly look at ways to make improvments to existing and future products as well as to the software. The 4g is representive of this.

Sometimes I think the journey is a lot more fun than the actual destination.

Good luck on your research and decision.

cj

[zeykr]

I believe I read in readme for the current shopbot 3.5.0 beta10, that it would support g code. The newer 4g upgrades also look to have a step and direction input area on the board. Might be worth a call to shopbot to for details.

[zeykr]

From the beta readme.txt:

VERSION RELEASE NOTES (for 3.5.*; see history for earlier versions)
================================================== ====================================
VERSION 3.5 BETA
......
-G-code (single command per line at moment; full G-code shortly)
.....

[bill.young]

I can certainly understand wanting to stick with a language that you understand and are comfortable with...that's a very valid reason to use G-code for me. Or if you have something to do that G-code can do and the ShopBot language can't...I could understand that. Or if you have other machines that use G-code and want to keep things the same...that makes sense to me.

What I don't understand in general, though, is the "industry standard" argument. 30 years ago the "industry standard" was to have your part files on paper tape...should we have stuck with that "industry standard"? There were good reason to use paper tape back then and good reasons to change.

I REALLY don't want to start a Gcode vs sbp war and will freely admit to a bias, but just don't think that being an "industry standard" is a very good reason to base a decision on.

Just one fool's opinion,
Bill

[conceptmachine]

Thanks guy's for your input,you all have good suggestions.
Mike- good idea,that would be the way to go if i had alot of sbp files,but i've only had my bot for four months so in my case it probably would be more of a hastle to switch connectors when i need to cut sbp files since i dont have that many.
Patrick- I'm also looking for speed and resolution,although i havn't had any issues with my sb controler doing anything wrong i havn't ran any realy long files yet,the longest i've ran so far is one ran for 1.5 hours.It would be nice to have that piece of mind not to worry about if or when something may go wrong.I know no software is perfect,but just about every day someone on the forum posts a problem they are having.
Bill- the way i'm interpreting "industry Standard" is a base line of g-code commands to work from.granted they are many commands that you may never use but they are there if you ever need them.I come from the metal working industry where every cnc that i have encountered has used industry standard g-code,so when you move from machine to machine you dont have to learn a new machine language.I dont have a problem with sbp language,i picked it up realy quick it, i guess the the main reason that i'm looking to change from the SB control is the limitations that it has not the language that it uses.

No matter what direction i end up going i just want to say that this forum is great,I have realy enjoyed becoming a part of the shopbot "family" and hope to be a part of it for a long time to come.

----shawn

[Brady Watson]

Shawn,
You keep saying that the SB control has it's limitations. What limitations are you talking about?

[richards]

Shawn,
I can certainly understand your desire to use the same type code with all the machines that you have to operate. (Those of us who have spent significant time programming have our favorite editors and favorite compilers. No matter what else is on the market, we always install the tools that we are most comfortable with on any new workstation.)

If I understand correctly, you already have a PRT. That means that you already have the stepper motors and a stepper motor power supply. To convert to G-code all you need to do is to buy four Gecko stepper drivers (the G202 model or G203 model would both be perfect), a breakout board (I use the PMDX-122 but many other brands are available), and a copy of Mach 3. That's it. Other than an hour or two to wire things up, you'll be ready to go. If you really push your motors, you might also consider adding a large capacitor (10,000 uf minimum), or even adding a linear power supply using a simple toroid transformer. If you choose to go this route, you'll be up and running in a minimum amount of time and at a cost of about $850 - but you won't be able to use Shopbot software.

[conceptmachine]

Brady,
I guess i have been a little vague on what im calling limitations.now keep in mind i've only been using the bot for a short while so maybe i've not seen the light yet!what im looking at as limitations if i want to do a quick let's say cut a rectangle,you have to manualy move x,y,z to the locations and then fill in the length values and if you didnt clean the face of the material you have to go and re-enter all the values then move your z down and do it again.it would be nice to have "canned cycles" to be able to fill in the blanks,give the start point of what operation you are doing without moving the machine to a new location and zeroing x,y.i know these things can be done on the sb but not without editing,the point is to be able to do it quickly.it would also be nice to have a tool library.hope this makes since.
shawn

[Brady Watson]

Shawn,
I'm sure that someone could write a little 'macro' or Custom Cut that would automate the types of things that you want to do. Personally, I never used any of the standard canned cycles in the software (like CC, CR) aside from surfacing my spoilboard, or popping in a vacuum port here and there. I like to have precise control over the toolpath and find it easiest to just open up PartWizard, sketch a vector or two on the screen and bang out a toolpath I know is going to work exactly as planned. Most of the time this only takes a minute or two. Rarely do I ever have a need to just cut a rectangle or circle etc arbitrarily, but that's just me.

I'm sure if you had an idea for a canned cycle, there's somebody else who needs one too. There are a number of talented programmers on here that could help you or others make it into a Custom Cut that you could call up whenever you needed it. If nobody chimes in or gives feedback as to what they need or want, then it is assumed that people are getting their needs met with the standard software features. My old BOSS Bridgeport had canned cycles built into it and I always wondered why anyone would want to use them if you could code up something in CAD/CAM and ensure everything was correct. It's possible that I am missing the advantages of having/using canned cycles compared to doing it in CAM.

-B

[conceptmachine]

Brady,
At my day job i mainly use hurco vmc's which have conversational programming(canned cycles)and the only time i EVER use cam software is to do 3d machining.Although i do know g-code its not worth the time to write the code or take the time to use cam software when you have conversational capabilities.we are a job shop so time is money,the faster the better.With my shopbot i use VCP(i dont have partwiazrd),and i use the same computer to run the bot and design software so to do simple commands i have to turn off sb3 open vcp make a file reopen sb3 then hope it works the way i want it to.It's realy just a matter of personal preference,having experienced all the ways of creating a cut file having canned cycles is soooooo much easier and efficient.

shawn

[conceptmachine]

Brady,
Forgot to mention,i know it's not fair to compare what capabilities i have on my cnc's at work to the SB but if i can get as close to it as possible it would make things alot easier.check out my company's website to see all the neat toy's i get paid to play with
LOL.
www.geometrictool.com (http://www.geometrictool.com)

shawn

[patricktoomey]

Man, those are some cool toys!

[rustnrot]

I was looking at the Shopbot website, and found the following sentence under the "Part File Programming Handbook" dated Feb 7, 2007. "If you are already an experienced CNC programmer and prefer G-code or have
software that generates G-code just go ahead an run it on ShopBot."

I assume they are talking about the new beta release mentioned above?

[cjohnson]

Just upgraded the PRT to the 4g. All things considered, very happy with results. Thanks Shopbot for a great product at a great price.