Flip-Cart for Sheet goods

[joel_schuman]

Anyone have a source for a flip cart for moving sheet goods? I store my sheet goods vertically, and getting 4x8 3/4" MDF from the rack to the ShopBot is too tough on my back. I'd like to put it on a wheeled cart that can flop to horizontal at SB bed height.
Plans would be good, too, if anyone's already invented this wheel...

[mrdovey]

Joel...

I found this product a while back but don't like the price much:

http://www.shopcartsusa.com/PH.htm

...I've been thinking about building a slightly less fancy (and a lot less expensive!) version for my shop.

Morris

[Brady Watson]

Joel,
I saw one a few weeks ago on the net...and I am regretting not bookmarking it. It was a set of plans that some woodworking magazine was selling. Essentially it was 2 cam-shaped pieces of ply where the cam was only on 1/4 of the sheet.

Hard to explain...I'll let you know if I find it.

Here's basically what it looked like...although I put the prop rod on the wrong side.

...and from what I remember there were wheels on each cam side and a tongue (L-shaped) where the sheet would be lifted from vertical to horizontal. Essentially you can prop this up, slide on the sheet, undo the prop rod and the sheet rests on the tongue like a hand truck. Roll it over to storage and drop it off. It also folds up for storage. Very clever & simple design...pardon my weak rendering.


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Carol Reed also built a tilt-top cart as illustrated in 'Setting Up Shop' book on pg 168. No plans, but you can probably figure it out.

-Brady

[waynelocke]

The Shopcart that Morris mentioned above is pricey but great. You can tilt 10 or so sheets of mdf from vertical to horizontal with almost no effort and it has a pedal operated hydraulic lift to adjust the table height. All in all the Shopcart cost less than a hernia operation and takes much less recuperation.
Wayne Locke

[mrdovey]

I like the Shopcart, but I think it should be possible to build a wooden version for under US$60 or a steel/aluminum version for under US$200.

I'd like to put rollers on the "top" to make it really easy to slide heavy sheets from the cart to the ShopBot bed. I would guess that the rollers and casters (and perhaps a pair of pillow blocks for pivots) will be the only real expense...

( Just what I need - another spare time "tinker" project :-)

Morris

[kerrazy]

Morris,
I could not agree with you more, You do need another tinker project, And I need to have a look at it when you're done. My back is killing me I have been moving sheets of 1 inch extirra around Arrgghh. So hurry up would ya!
LOL
Dale

[mrdovey]

He he. Ok, here's the end view of what I might try:


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( All done with 2x6, 2x4, and the time I don't really have :-)

Suggestions welcome!

Morris

[stickman]

Morris,

That looks like it would work nicely.

A nice little latch to keep it from swinging over at the unappropriate time and a couple locking heavy-duty casters and your set. Could even be used as an extra work surface when not loading panels. Work nice for production cutting.

Good job.. (I've got the time)

[mrdovey]

I plan on loading the cart from the side, rolling it over to the 'Bot, tipping the sheet horizontal, and sliding it onto the 'Bot table. I don't plan to ever move the cart around with the support in a horizontal position.

The sheet should be at least approximately balanced; and I like your latch concept - I seem to always have difficulty growing that third hand when I need it.

I'd like to add some rollers to make it /really/ easy to move the heavy sheets from the cart onto the 'Bot. If this'll work, it shouldn't be difficult to retrofit the rollers later.

Morris

[kerrazy]

What about some sort of a Hydralic bottle jack incase your table saw is a differnet hieght than you shopbot?
It could have a sliding vertical support two hard wood boards side by side a groove machined in them to accept carriage bolt?

[mrdovey]

Joel,

I've got the pillow blocks on order. I'll pick up some casters, 3/8" bolts, and 2x4 stock locally. I think I have everything else (2x6, glue, and screws) on hand. I should be able to have photos online in a week or two ( Jay will probably have his done tomorrow. :-)

BTW, are you running a Columbo spindle on your ShopBot?

Morris

[mrdovey]

Dale...

I've thought some about being able to adjust the height - and decided against. I'm using pillow blocks for the support pivot and they'll only tolerate a 3º variance. I can build this thing square, but I'm afraid that (since I can only adjust one end at a time) I'd trash the bearings if I tried to adjust the height.

I like the hydraulic lift idea; but I have the same problem with that.

Both could probably be done reasonably on a welded steel or aluminum cart. Are you making drawings yet? (-:

Morris

[beacon14]

The Shopcart unit is very heavy duty and well made (like the ShopBot, hmmmm), and is especially well suited for bringing multiple sheets over to a horizontal table (tablesaw, ShopBot, etc.) and unloading one at a time, then raising up to unload the next sheet at the proper height.
The good news is that Hafele sells the exact same cart (except in red) for under $500.
The Hafele part # is 007.94.000 - it's currently listed at $463.25. Their phone # is 800-423-3531
I'm not sure if they will sell to you if you don't have an account. If anyone is interested but doesn't have an account, I can see if I can order it for you through my account.
If you do much work with sheet goods, unless you have abundant, cheap, young labor, it's worth the price many times over.

[lindseyj]

Joel,
I've been using the panel cart from Hafele for about four years. It has been one of the smartest purchases that I have ever made. I've been cutting sheet stock for twenty years and my back has never been better. Give Hafele a call, some times they run specials and include the shipping.

Lindsey

[gerald_d]

Morris, the pillow blocks are possibly an over-kill? How about gate hinges? Or just a bolt through the timbers (you can press pipe into the timber to line the holes)?

While talking of board handling, I mentioned something on this Forum last year that seems to have gone un-noticed. I saw a huge CNC glass cutter in Germany last year, probably with a 36'x20' bed and where the guy was loading huge thick sheets of glass, alone. The simple trick was that the vacuum bed could be reversed to "blow" and then the sheet hovered above the table making the final positioning dead easy.

[mrdovey]

Gerald...

I think they might be. This evening I've revisited the design and think I might drill the boards and insert a piece of 1/2" ID tubing - just as you suggest. I'll use a 1/2" bolt with fender washers outside and a thin 2-3" UHMW washer between the boards.

I expect to build a steel version after I discover what I don't like about the wooden version - and will probably reserve the pillow blocks for that model ( unless I find a better use before then :-)

Truth is, the only MDF I've cut to date has been my spoil board; and the only panels I normally cut are 1/4" plywood and 6mm (hollow) polycarbonate - really lightweight stuff. Most of my ShopBot work is joinery on plain old pine, fir, and spruce boards that aren't all that heavy.

And who knows - I /may/ find myself needing to cope with 3/4" MDF one day; and the cart should make that considerably esier.

It would be neat to be able to float work onto the table on an air cushion. I suspect that the glass operation was very interesting to see.

You just gave me an interesting (if not practical) notion: why don't we redesign this rather mundane and all-too-practical cart as a "Hovercart"?

Morris

[gerald_d]

@ Hovercart

[carol]

I guess I should weight in here because I built the cart that is in "Setting Up Shop". I did that a bunch of years ago and it was based on the Shopcart. It does lift up on a bottle jack to match the level of my saw.

And no I don't have plans. I never did any plans. I just built it. I do get asked for plans every now and then, however. :-)

I spent close to $200 in parts. Now it may half again as much.

If you want to build one, here is some hindsight. Use much bigger wheels that you though necessary. Sheet goods are HEAVY. I used the 10" pneumatic wheels from Harbor Freight. Use a gate lock in both positions. Once you start shoving the piece on or off the cart you don't want it tipping (and it will). You will also want brakes on the wheels. DAMHIKT!

If there is a cart out there for $400 with these features, grab it. You time is better spent making money.

Carol Reed
also a ShopBot owner

[gerald_d]

Hi Carol - nice new web site that you have there! (Maybe it just shows when last I looked)

[davidallen]

there was an article on a panel cart (complete with plans) in one of the woodworking magazines in the last couple of months.

I've adapted them to be cut on the shopbot, but have been away from my shop for the last few months.

I should be gainfully unemployed again in a few weeks and should be able to finalize and post the plans if someone doesn't do it first.

[jamesgilliam]

Here is a picture of the cart that was in Nov 2003 American Woodworker. It is simple, but looks as though it would do the job. Will not work for my setup because material is in one shop and the bot is in another. Just too many height differences to try to cross. Hope this is of some help.

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[mrdovey]

This noon I started cutting parts for my panel cart. It looks as though it'll only take (2) 2x6x12',(2) 2x4x12', and some scrap plywood (for gussets in the tilting frame). What I have so far looks very much like the drawing I posted yesterday (except that I'm not using pillow blocks).

I think I'm going to manage the entire project for well less than the US$60 that I'd guesstimated.

What's really fun is that I came up with a new (single bolt) joint to use in making the T-shaped cart base ends. More on this later if it works as well as I expect.

Morris

[jim_ludi]

Joel - this is probably the panel mover that David and others are talking about. You can find the plans in the December 2003 issue of Workbench magazine (Vol. 59, #6). The article's four pages long and includes detailed plans and instructions. I'd post the whole article, but there may be some legal issues with doing that. However, if I get time, or someone else wants to, we can probably create a cut file and post that. If you can't find the magazine check at www.WorkbenchMagazine.com (http://www.WorkbenchMagazine.com) for back issues.
Jim
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[jim_ludi]

Ooops! Let's try it with the pictures this time (size limited by message board).


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Joel - this is probably the panel mover that David and others are talking about. You can find the plans in the December 2003 issue of Workbench magazine (Vol. 59, #6). The article's four pages long and includes detailed plans and instructions. I'd post the whole article, but there may be some legal issues with doing that. However, if I get time, or someone else wants to, we can probably create a cut file and post that. BTW, it looks like the design could easily be scaled up to match your table height. If you can't find the magazine check at www.WorkbenchMagazine.com (http://www.WorkbenchMagazine.com) for back issues.
Jim

[Brady Watson]

Jim,
Thanks for redeeming my sorry looking picture! LOL!


That's what I couldn't find. Seems like a really good design because it also folds up. Definately a candidate for cutting it with the Bot.

-Brady

[mrdovey]

Do we have an area for discussion of ShopBot joinery techniques? In the process of working out the details for my tiltable shop cart, I decided to try a variation on the traditional lap joint that I'm hoping will provide more weight support. It's one of those crazy notions that could only be done (more or less reasonably) on a CNC machine.

The square below represents the area where the two 2x6 boards overlap. There's a 1/2" bolt hole in the center of the joint.

The gray area represents that part of the joint routed down to the half thickness of the board, red represents areas left 1/4" higher than the half thickness, and blue represents areas 1/4" lower than the half-thickness.

Both boards are routed identically while they are parallel to the x-axis; and provide a "meshed" lap joint when one is turned 90 degrees. The intent is to provide a good gluing surface and to have the joint play a greater role in supporting the load.

Has anyone done or seen (or even just thought about) anything like this? I don't know whether I've over-thought the problem, produced a workable solution, or just need to get more sleep. Here's the sketch (feedback appreciated):


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Morris

[gerald_d]

Morris, some good innovative thought! However, the proof of the pudding is in the eating - make such a joint and see if it is more difficult to break than a conventional joint. Interested to hear the result.

Brady, here (http://www.workbenchmagazine.com/main/wb280-caddy01.html) is a link to the original article, that includes videos.

[Brady Watson]

Thanks Gerald


Morris,
Interesting concept. If I am getting you correctly, it is akin to a toothed socket joint/ wingnut deal you would find on a tripod or microphone stand, right? I'm curious to know if it is any stronger than a traditional tenioned or mitered lap joint, although that would be a bit harder to cnc both halves.

-Brady

[kerrazy]

Morris,
Why do I have this feeling you have actually re-invented the wheel and it is hidden with your many other inventions in your shop?
It is great how you use ingenuity with nearly every post.
I am in aw.
Keep it up!
Dale

[davidallen]

it should work OK. one concern is the short grain at the corners. this tends to chip and splinter (depending on the wood). you might do just as well using squares instead of triangles. a 2x2 array would provide the interlock while maximizing the grain length.

da

[mrdovey]

David...

Thank you! I was also after a "keystone" effect and may have over-thought the problem. You've convinced me that I should try both joints - plus a third version with circular "pillars" and "wells".

...Morris

[bill.young]

How about drilling matching round recesses in each piece and then inserting pieces of dowel in the recesses. The long grain of the dowels would make the joint strong, and if you cut the recesses in a circular array around the bolt you could rotate the parts to join them at several angles.

Bill

[mrdovey]

Bill...

I think I'll file that approach for another project (requiring adjustable angles) on the schedule for later this spring.

This project lets me kill a number of birds with one stone: [1] I'll have a way to move panels (both sheets and solar panels) around the shop much more easily than at present, [2] I'll have a gee-whiz ShopBot capabilities demonstration for local cabinet shop owners (prospective customers), [3] I'll have a sales incentive that I can produce inexpensively and give away (quantity one, in KD form) to cabinet shop customers, and [4] I'll have another profitable product to market locally.

The "pillars and wells" lap joint might be just the thing to stir their imagination and produce more business. Even after they've assembled it, they'll never forget how it went together (or where it came from. :-)

The last solar panel to leave my shop was 6'x12' and weighed about 200 lb - and would have been much easier to build and move if I'd had a scaled-up version of this cart. Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing?

Morris

[mrdovey]

To follow up on the tilt-top cart, here are a few pix to show what I finally built from my first drawing:








The cart was built to match the height of my SB work surface - and (with a removable hardboard top) will double as an outfeed table for my table saw.

Morris

[mrdovey]

Oops! Sorry about that. File sizes are about 10K too large. When I get time I'll post the pix to my web site.

Morris

[stickman]

Morris,

Looking forward to seeing your pictures. You've been silent the last couple weeks. Busy with school or with the ShopBot?

Jay

[mrdovey]

I've posted the pix at http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/shop_cart.html

Jay...

I've been busy. Most recently working out how to switch the Bot back and forth between a router and a milling machine. The little aircraft factory next door wants me to make some S/S parts for 'em
and I'm having an interesting learning experience.

The e-mail notifications from the forum stopped arriving and I was busy enough to not notice. I guess I just thought everyone else was busy, too.

Best regards...

[mrdovey]

Finally got time to play with the interlocking lap joint software again.

The program is invoked from within an SBP file with appropriate parameters set; and produces a temporary SBP file containing the code to cut the half-joint. The program takes into account the current bit diameter, and the thickness and widths of both boards.

This picture is of the first attempt; but it's enough to give a fairly good idea what the joint really looks like.

[mrdovey]

Well, I've crashed into the pixel barrier again. I'll have the picture available shortly at http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/LLJ_040604.gif.

[ron brown]

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[ron brown]