Raster Braille Signs

[shevy]

Is anyone using their Shopbot to install Raster Braille dots? Anything I should be aware of before I spend a small fortune buying the license?

ANSWER:
My name is Shevy and I work for Accent Signage Systems. Our company owns the patent for two Raster Braille insertion devices and also the act of placing a ball in a hole to produce Braille is part of our patent. To answer some of your questions here:

1) Federal ADA regulations require only Grade 2 Braille may be used on signs. Grade 2 Braille is not just a font you install. To produce Grade 2 Braille you will need a Grade 2 Braille translator software available from Duxbury Systems. Grade 2 Braille has approximately 200 contractions of common words and qualifies as a language.

2) The ADA regulations require a dome-shaped Braille dot. A flat topped dot is no longer legal. Our Raster Braille system produces ADA compliant dome shaped Braille which is easier for visually-impaired people to read and has no sharp edges to cut fingers like flat topped Braille.

3) With the Raster Braille system adhesives are not required when installing in engraveable plastics. Rasters will only fall out if the manufacturer does not have his/her engraving equipment set properly, or if the manufacturer is using Braille balls that were not ISO 9001 Certified and manufactured by Accent to the precise size required to work with our equipment. We do have a very easy adhesive method for use with aluminum, steel, corian, etc.

4) Our complete Raster Braille equipment kit includes not only the license to use our technology, but also 15 different items, including the insertion equipment, 10,000 acrylic rasters, 2 carbide Braille cutters, CD-ROM, ADA Manual and other tools. We provide free technical support to our customers.

5) Visit our website at www.accentsignage.com (http://www.accentsignage.com) or email me at shevy@accentsignage.com (mailto:shevy@accentsignage.com) for more detailed info on producing Braille.

[chodges]

Could you please point me to the specific citation where the ADA requires dome-shaped Braille dots?

I cannot find that in my copy of Title III, Regulation 28 CFR, Part 36 from the U.S. Department of Justice's website.

Thanks!

[shevy]

Hi Charles,
Domed-shaped Braille is specified in the DOJ Federal ADA /ABA Guidelines:

Chapter 7:Communications:
703.3 Braille.
"Braille shall be contracted (grade 2) and shall comply with 703.3 and 703.4."
"703.3.1 Dimensions and Capitalization: Braille shall have a domed or rounded shape and shall comply with Table 703.3.1."

Shevy

[chodges]

Thanks Shevy!

Do you happen to have a URL that I can visit to read this (and other) sections of this law?

[shevy]

Hi Charlie,

The United States Access Board (ADAAG) website is:
www.access-board.gov (http://www.access-board.gov)
The downloadable file is almost 500 pages of regulations. Look for Chapter 7: Communications. This is the main set of sign regulations and is approximately 10 pages long and begins at approx page 223 of the PDF document.
Shevy

[jbworden]

Shevy,

Thanks for the good info. It took a bit of hunting but I was able to find the ADA/ABA Guidelines you referenced. Maybe you can settle an argument for me. We've been told for several years that the ADA guidelines are just guidelines and do not have the force of law behind them. The photopolymer guys, of course, tell us that their flat tops are still perfectly legal. What can I tell my customers about this? Are the older braille dots grandfathered? What about new signage in buildings with existing photopolymer signage?

Thanks,

Jim

BTW. We just bought the Raster license a few months ago so I'd really like to have something to tell my customers.

[shevy]

Hi Charlie,
You are partially correct. The ADA guidelines are only guidelines--until adopted into law by the Department of Justice. The current ADA Guidelines were adopted by the DOJ in May of 2006 as law. Therefore, flat-topped Braille dots have not been legal since that time. I have heard of some photopolymer manufacturers meticulously adding a drop of super glue to the top of each Braille dot or using sandpaper in order to make their dots dome-shaped so that they would be ADA compliant.
However, if you are in an area with very lax or un-informed building inspectors, such as almost anywhere in Florida, then photopolymer will pass there, as they often do not even check to see if there are signs at all in Florida. Generally, whatever ADA laws were in effect at the time of sign installation in a building are in effect until the building is remodeled and then it must meet the new regulations unless it can be proved that it would be an economic hardship for the business.

Shevy

[chodges]

Thanks Shevy.

I have the same interpretation as Jim does. We are a large sign company, and we are not aware of any such changes to the ADA law.

The Department of Justice's website has the full text of Title III, Regulation 28 CFR, Part 36 and its ammendment, but there is no mention of any subsequent formal adoption of any guidelines as law.

You said that these guidelines were adopted as law in May of 2006. Is there an official reference to this action that you can specify? I just can't find a legal citation where this was done.

[shevy]

Hi Charlie & Jim,
It is not enough just be aware of Title III. ANSI 117.1A has been adopted at the state level already as law in many states and the new revised ADA will shortly be law in all states. The following is info from several sources (Access Board, DOJ, SEGD, etc.) which I have compiled together here for you.

"All projects are subject to the Federal ADAAG. However, building code officials currently only enforce the letter of their state or local building code. However, several states have adopted the provisions of ANSI 117.1A of 2003 (revised ADA standards) (which includes the requirement for Dome-shaped Braille) bringing them substantially in line with the updated ADAAG. Therefore, when speaking of signage and accessibility, “things that are permitted in some states are not permitted in others.” The DOJ approved the 2006 ADAAG, but yes there is a review period before this actually becomes federal law, at which time all state codes must conform, but this may take time. But as noted above, in many states, it is already law. It is advisable to follow the current ADAAG and also reference state and local codes, since many states already follow the revised ADAAG standards and require dome-shaped Braille as do many federal agencies.

The Department of Transportation adopted these new ADA standards November 29th of 2006. The US Postal Service adopted the new ADA standards on Oct 1, 2005. The GSA adopted the new ADA standards on May 8, 2006. If you are manufacturing ADA signs for any one of these federal agencies (or for any of the several states using ANSI 117.1A standards), then you are required to use dome-shaped Braille.

On Friday, May 30, 2008, Attorney General Michael B. Mukasey signed proposed regulations to revise the Department’s ADA regulations, including its ADA Standards for Accessible Design. On Tuesday, June 17, 2008, the proposed regulations were published in the Federal Register. The proposed regulations consist of a notice of proposed rulemaking to amend the ADA regulation for State and local governments, a notice of proposed rulemaking to amend the ADA regulation for public accommodations and commercial facilities, a Regulatory Impact Analysis, and two supporting appendices.

The public comment period for the proposed regulations ended on August 18, 2008. These proposals are part of the Department’s comprehensive review of its regulations implementing the Americans with Disabilities Act. On September 30, 2004, the Department issued an advance notice of proposed rulemaking announcing its intention to adopt design standards that are consistent with the revised ADA Accessibility Guidelines published by the Architectural and Transportation Barriers Compliance Board (also known as the Access Board) on July 23, 2004. The ADA requires the Department to publish regulations that include accessibility standards that are consistent with the Access Board’s guidelines. Until the Department’s rulemaking is complete, the revised ADA Guidelines are effective only as guidance to the Department and the public.

On January 21, 2009, the Department of Justice notified the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) that the Department has withdrawn its draft final rules to amend the Department’s regulations implementing title II and title III from the OMB review process. This action was taken in response to a memorandum from the President’s Chief of Staff directing the Executive Branch agencies to defer publication of any new regulations until the rules are reviewed and approved by officials appointed by President Obama. No final action will be taken by the Department with respect to these rules until the incoming officials have had the opportunity to review the rulemaking record. Incoming officials will have the full range of rule-making options available to them under the Administrative Procedure Act.
Withdrawal of the draft final rules does not affect existing ADA regulations. Title II and title III entities must continue to follow the Department's existing ADA regulations, including the ADA Standards for Accessible Design.

You may check www.ADA.gov (http://www.ADA.gov) for additional future updates. Hope this helps!
Shevy

[chodges]

Thanks Shevy!

If I understand this correctly, the ADA law has not yet been ammended, but certain (to be defined) changes are anticipated.

If this is correct, then the specific requirement for dome-shaped braille dots that can only be made by an expensive proprietary process is not yet law.

Would you agree?

[shevy]

No Charlie, Your analysis above is not entirely correct.
At least one third of the States in the US already have adopted into law the ANSI 117.1A Standards for ADA. ANSI 117.1A requires dome-shaped rounded Braille dots. If you are in a state with ANSI 117.1A standards (such as here in Minnesota) then Dome-shaped Braille is the law. This will soon be the case in all states, now that the DOJ has put it's stamp of approval on the standards. Visually-impaired people want dome-shaped Braille because it is easier to read and does not cut their fingers.

Dome-shaped Braille can be made with our Raster Braille process, but it can also be made with the routed-out Braille process is special dome cutters are employed. We have photopolymer manufacturers using Raster Braille in the photopolymer materials also.

I would disagree with your implication that Raster Braille is an "expensive proprietary process". The complete Raster kit is $1995.00 and most shops recoup that entire investment with the very first large ADA job they make with Raster equipment.

Shevy

[chodges]

I think it's best for me to back away from this discussion after this post - I don't want to abuse my privileges here on ShopBot's forum.

The whole point of my discussion is that your statements in the first post in this thread that "The ADA regulations require a dome-shaped Braille dot. A flat topped dot is no longer legal." are just not true. Instead, they are misleading and self-serving, and I am offended by that as others probably are.

In your last post, your position changed to say that 1/3 of the states have adopted these requirements. To me, that means that the Federal Government and the other 2/3 of the states have NOT mandated dome-shaped braille as a matter of law, so this heavily suggests that your statements are false.

We would like to get the Federal Government to pass a law that required sign companies to send us $2,000 each too, but we would prefer to earn it honestly.

[shevy]

Hi Charlie,
Your comments above are well taken. I made my earlier comments with good intentions and they were not meant to mislead and I apologize for that. Most major ADA sign manufacturers are treating the ANSI 117.1A standards as law, since they are already law in so many states and more states all the time. The new regulations have been around since 2003, and it took many years for them to be approved by the Dept of Justice. Since that procedure is now completed as of 2008. It only remains for Obama to review and give the go ahead and most in the ADA sign industry feel that there are no obstacles left. Please forgive me for treating it as law, since it has been law in Minnesota, where we operate for quite some time now.

I notice that you are from Tennessee. Although your state has not adopted the ANSI 117 standards yet, several municipalities in Tennessee have. For example, if you install ADA signs in Murphreesboro, TN they have adopted the ANSI 117 standards and dome shaped Braille would be required there.

To locate other municipalities in your state where the new ADA regulations are already law you can contact Fred Garbler at the State Fire marshal's office. Tennessee allows either the new ADA regulations(ANSI 117, as part of the Intl Building Code) or the 2002 North Carolina Accessibility code with 2004 ammendments, unless you are in one of those municipalities, like Murphreesboro that oficially adopted the ANSI 117 regulations as law.

My point is, that even in states like yours where ANSI 117 is not in the state code, you may be faced with it as a law in several municipalities there, so it is always wise to check the local regulations.

Hope this info will help you.
Shevy

[khaos]

It seems to me that a bit could easily be made just for braille dots. Dome size and clearance could be set when the tool is made. Height and diameter would be totally consistent. Is there some tear out issue? Or some other complication I am over simplifying? Certainly I am not the first one to think of this.

[shevy]

Hi Joe,
There are several different kinds of bits available for making both the Braille dots and for making the holes for Braille spheres. I assume you are asking about the former used in the routede-out Braille method where you remove the plastic material and leave the dots exposed. The old Braille bits for this process produced flat-topped dots that are no longer acceptable in many states and cities. A newer domes Braille cutter was developed to meet the ADA regulations and it does produce a rounded domed shaped dot. However routed Braille, especially domed routed Braille takes a lot of machine time compared with the Raster Braille system.
Shevy

[wcsg]

I can't believe what I'm reading here.

It's very simple here, Accent Signage has a patent for the raster applicator tool, pen and others. You don't have to use their system for creating braille but it makes it a hell of a lot easier for doing these types of jobs and in volume.

Pay the 2k or don't. I did, and never looked back. You'll make this back on the first half of your first job, believe me.

Cutting braille out with a cutter is a waste of time, inefficient and not to mention unprofessional looking. The beads give it a professional finished look.

The bottom line on domed braille or not. If you do large volume ADA compliant signage you will notice that the EGD or Environmental Graphic Designers always call out and prefer domed braille. Every Civic or Private job always calls out for it, don't get me started on Title 24 being in CA.

Another suggestion I would highly recommend picking up is Sharon Toji's Access Communications binder, very helpful.

Sharon's Binder with phone support and Accents Braille applicator = makes life easier.

[bpfohler]

We considered buying the Accent Sinage system but I have a hard time shelling out the 2k for the Braille pen applicator.
I've never had the opportunity to see or try it in person so I can't really offer an opinion.
We do dozens of Braille signs. The acrylic braille balls are from McMaster Carr $8.21 per/500.
We we're able to purchase a DOS based grade 2 Braille translator for $20.00, not as fancy as the Dukbury system but very functional. Someone on Sawmill Creek has developed a translator plug-in for Corel that goes for $49.00.
The laser engraver is our tool of choice for the signs, I can't imagine the CNC can create a hole precise enough to hold a 1/16" diameter ball without adhesive.
All of the DOJ regulations I have read require dome shaped braille raised 1/32" above the substrate. Your local code enforcement officer should be familiar with the regulations.

[wcsg]

If you have your CNC dialed in decent it's not a problem doing the tactile or braille hole drilling. I haven't had a problem with having to need an adhesive for acrylic ball, but I will need to layer transfer tape over the holes in aluminum or other metals then apply the balls with the pen.

On the CNC I can do a few plaques at a time, but it seems easier at times using a small engraver or on a laser

[steve_fedor]

Nice insertion tool.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.visionengravers.com/products/images/accessories/Push-Down-Clamps-TM.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.visionengravers.com/products/Vision-router-engraving-accessories.html&usg=__Zy0QB7QaPmvEpFMNVV23QGHRvNI =&h=132&w=225&sz=8&hl=en&start=9&um=1&tbnid=zVjf_r mY6kJAfM:&tbnh=63&tbnw=108&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcnc%2Bclamps%26gbv%3D2%26um%3D1%26hl% 3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN

[wcsg]

dead link

[steve_fedor]

Another nice auto insertion tool. $1200.00

http://www.gravograph.com/usa/Signage/Auto_Raster.php

[stopngosigns]

I see all the commentary on this subject but was wondering if anyone answered the question......does anyone ues their SHOPBOT to do ADA compliant raster braille or other ADA signage?

[wcsg]

yes you can, but it's more efficient buying yourself an engraver if you plan on doing a lot.
IMO

[clueless]

You said your company owns a patent on putting a ball in the hole. Can you direct us to the patent number and the exact phrase or section that supports that claim? On the patents I have read that your company owns, they all state clearly that the patent is for the apparatus to install the ball, not the process of installing a ball in a hole. Can you please clarify?

[navigator7]

Braille at the drive up banking window?
Who patented that?

[clueless]

Still waiting for the patent number and phrase in that patent that supports your post about owning the patent for putting the ball in the hole.

[khaos]

I doubt they monitor this forum. Here is the short blurb from the website with a phone# - Or maybe there is no patent.

Braille Done as Dots
The next type of Braille is done as dots. This is used for the Edgarton Braille process. The translation is used to drill holes in which beads, also called rasters, are placed to create a raised bump or dot. this process is patented and a license must be obtained from Accent Signage. This process can be used on plastic, aluminum, brass, and steel. Rasters are available in plastic, glass, brass, and several grades of steel. The different grades of steel offer different finishes.

Accent Signage holds a patent on this process of creating Braille text on signs. To obtain a license to use this method, contact Accent Signage @ 612-377-9156.

[clueless]

Thanks Joe, they seemed to monitor it when they wanted to, they started this thread!

I think it's all a play on words. Do they own the process of putting "raster" balls in holes. Sure do. Do they own the process of putting balls into holes to create braille? I don't think so. It's the play on words by calling their product "raster balls". They even fight to get the wording "raster balls" into contracts to force people to use them on their signs.

I think they are playing a little loose with wording when they say they own the process for putting balls into holes.

I also think the people at Nova Photopolymers would take strong exception to anyone claiming you cannot use Photopolymer to create compliant signs. There are millions and millions of photopolymer signs out there, all braille, all compliant. I've seen the shape Nova is getting out of their systems and it doesn't involve anyone dropping super glue on top of the dot to make it round.

[khaos]

I'm guessing that if this isn't the case we'll hear soon enough. We will have to watch the specific wording of any reply.

Signed,
Suspicious by experience.

[robtown]

I did it last year. Pricey, but insanely effective. By the time you buy the kit for installing into aluminum, it's more like 2800.00 to 3,000.00.

That pen is awesome though, I bought the raster kit thinking I would be inserting balls for weeks on my project, it went MUCH MUCH faster than I thought it would.

I think you need to already own a license for raster balls to be able to purchase the gravograph machine linked above.

And yes, if you intend to do this alot, you'd be better off buying an engraver, but it can be done with minimal effert on a Bot.

[clueless]

Just to clarify on some of the above where the implication is that the photopolymer will not meet code, perhaps the people at Accent should spend some time educating our government if that's the case.I guess this RFP I have in my hands for a Department of Defense project that specifically says "Must be photopolymer" certainly can't be correct, now can it?

I'm not against the raster braille system at all (I think it's an amazing system), but I think they are very deceptive in their marketing, always implying that the only possible way to legally conform to the code is by using their product, when that's simply not the case.

[wcsg]

I can't believe this stupid thread is still going. No the application of acrylic balls is not theirs, just the mechanical device(s). You can get the acrylic balls which they call "Rasters" in a couple of locations. BUT, their device does make it MUCH simpler, and ACCENT is a very helpful company when it comes to asking for help on YOUR projects. THEY even wholesale to you and the process to make signs whether you are a client or not. SHEVY is a very helpful guy if you have ever talked to him before.

If you want to insert each ball using a pair of tweesers huddled under a high powered project light, so be it.

Maybe his phrases are confusing, it's called MARKETING. In the business of selling products we MARKET! Especially in the sign game.

You've already read between the lines and get it, let's MOVE ON!

[khaos]

Hey, no, your right. That makes it ok. LOL

[robtown]

What I found when I was dealing with a job that specified Polymer, was that it was hard to find, expensive, and not a short turnaround. Then there's the whole ADA recomendations vs regulations debate....

By finding a local laser engraver for lettering, purchasing an Accent license and pen (and kit), I kept it mostly inhouse and was able to deal quickly with mistakes (thiers and ours) and changes. And both things tend to happen in large wayfinding projects, mistakes and changes.

Believe me, I agonized and researched before I dropped the cash, that much for sticking balls in holes, it seemed a bit much. I still look at the kit on the shelf and shake my head. But I do consider it one of the rare occasions where an overpriced product actually delivered.

[clueless]

Erik, perhaps you need to understand that their claim, as listed above BY THEM, is that they own the process of putting a ball in the hole. So while you might think this is a stupid thread, there are many people that have been threatened to be sued because they are putting a ball in a hole. That's no speculation, that's no hearsay, that's what's happening to people that put balls in holes and do not use their program.

There are more than a handful of people on this forum that know exactly what I'm talking about and gone down the same road.

I personally have been told by the owner of the company that they own the process of putting a ball in the hole and if I put a ball in a hole to make a sign, then he could sue me.

Stupid or not, that's what this company is publicly saying to people. I have myself and 3 witnesses that where involved in the conversation.

[wcsg]

Steve,

I understand, but he, "Randy" from Accent bought the rights years back and it's his. Putting a ball in a hole is now his. So is raised lettering of New Hermes.

He could sue you, but will he?

Look, you don't have to do raster braille to achieve braille. But it's their system and legally theirs.

Is there something wrong with owning rights to a product or process and trying to enforce it? He invested in it right?

Permlight owns a patent when it comes to LED modules for using aluminum as a base board, that is why most sold use PCB baords.

I get you.

[clueless]

No Erik, I don't think you do get me. You said "If you want to insert each ball using a pair of tweesers huddled under a high powered project light, so be it."

Their claim is that I cannot. That's what I'm asking for clarification on.

That's not the case. I am 100% behind their system and believe it works well. However, I do not see any evidence that supports their claims that if I do want to put a ball into a hole with tweezers, I can legally do that.

I get it. I get the raster ball system, I get the raster balls, I get the insertion tool, I get it all. I just don't get the claiming that you cannot put a ball into a hole without violating their patent.

Trust me, I'm not alone, there are many that would like clarification.

So let me be very clear in my question. If I want to take a ball (not a "raster ball"), but a sphere and stick it in a hole, am I violating their patent, yes or no. If yes, please explain which patent and wording that I would be violating, and if no, then I have no further questions.

[wcsg]

Ah,

From my understanding of the history and I may be wrong, Randy bought the patent off the guy who started it as a process of doing braille by these small balls into a hole and using it as braille.

Randy, is the one who made the applicators, and calls it the raster system.

On the tweezers, it's tongue and cheek. I was assuming you are complaining about having to pay a fee or license to do so and wanted to go on your own way about it.

Realistically is it illegal to jaywalk? Yes. Is a cop going to fine you for doing so, probably not. Is Randy going to spend money on a slip and fall lawyer to come after you, probably not unless you are going around publicly smashing a bunch of pans announcing what you are doing.

He's already threatened people who sell small acrylic balls the same size as the rasters for their purpose of sellingn raster alternatives, and all they can do is say, "we sell these for art purposes".

Do they really have a patent for the process? I can't point you to anything for sure, but in another forum it was layed out the specifics with pictures and all. I since cannot find it. It's been years, but I'm confident they do. Accent probably won't come back here because of where this thread is going and how they can be painted as a greedy entity.

If I were them, I wouldn't. They already said it in the first post.

[robtown]

When you drop almost $10,000 for a seat of ArtCam, are you getting a jewel encrusted box containing a DVD, or just a $2.00 DVD?

Can you make T shirts that say "WHO DAT"?

Can you utter the words "March Madness"... at all?

Answers:
You're getting a $2.00 DVD containing DerlCam's IP, and you don't even "own" that.

No, you cannot. The NFL trademarked it, even though it's a saying that has probably been around a long time before the NFL.

And, no absolutely not. The NCAA owns this and THEY will send the slip-n-fall lawyers after you on this one. They guard it like a jealous troll guards it's gold.

All similar issues to the issues contained in this thread.

Patent info is readily available online, I think. So this should be easily confirmed.

If you have found a way to easily stick balls in a hole, I don't think they'll be coming after you. I would hazard a guess that one could easily spend well over $2500.00 in time and materials just trying to figure out how to do it in a cost effective manor, and still have an inferior system to the Accent pen.

My bottom line is this. I "happened" across a large wayfinding job last year that specified polymer for the raised lettering and braille. The sample provided me was actually done in raster braille, not polymer. When I tried to find a polymer source, I found it expensive, had a long turnaround, and questionable as to whether it even met code.

One more thing I discovered about polymer, (part of the package was for exterior signage). It's seaweed. It won't hold up outdoors.

So i researched a bit agonized over the price and pulled the trigger. The job turned out to be a smashing success, even though I dropped $3000.00 on this one tool, I still made out very well. It's not just because of the tool, this was one of those jobs that everything fell into line on.

My point is this. I don't DO wayfinding and ADA signage per se, so I don't know all that much about any of this. I did have an opportunity to get into it, and I took a chance on a product that I felt the same way some of the above posters felt about it. It worked exceedingly well. I consider a sound investment because now I can pursue more of the same with a specific tool that is paid for, and that not many in my area have the capability that I now have. (it seems there's quite a few "licenses" in the ATL area, but none of them do it in metal, I do now)

If wayfinding and braille are your bread and butter, then perhaps it would behoove you to spend some time and money to come up with a system of your own. But again, can you do it for under $2500.00 (your time is worth money now, so be honest) and if so, will it work as well as the Accent pen? I wouldn't worry too much about Accent coming after you unless you are running millions of dollars of "raster" braille out the door, and I don't see that happening with a Bot.(don't get me wrong, the Bot works great for this, but if you're doing that kind of volume, you need a dedicated engraver)

Anyway, one man's story of his journey and discovery...

[clueless]

Erik and Rob, I've said it several times, but I'll say it again. I think that system is outstanding. I think it's worth the money many times over. Now that that's out of the way, several statements still remain unanswered.

1) Do they hold a patent for putting a ball in a hole. Is this relevant? Sure it is. This is a ShopBot forum that encourages people to do all sorts of creative things. If someone here is selling things or telling people they can use their shopbot to create braille without the Accent system, then that would be informing people to do something against the law. So I think it's relevant that this community knows where it stands.

2) Accent employee's said that Photopolymer won't meet the code. That's not the truth. I can assure you there are millions more Photopolymer signs in existence than Raster Braille.

[robtown]

I'm staying out of that part of the argument. I speak to practicality of the situation.

Like I said US patents are available online so question #1 can easily be answered.

Question #2 is a bit "dicier" ADA recommendations are being adopted by code enforcement as policy around the states, so each states codes will differ on this. There is no "federal code" for this, it's all based on localities. Plus the codes don't say polymer can't be used, just that the braille dots need to be rounded, or without sharp edges.

Quite honestly, another vendor over representing thier product or making up laws or codes to support thier product is a non issue... unless you want to take on all vendors who do this, why bother?

And, as I did mention, as far as I know polymer is not for outdoor use at all. It's basically seaweed.

[clueless]

Rob, the only photopolymer I have seen that was seaweed was an eco-friendly product. The vast majority of them are just plastics and plastic resins.

They make a variety of indoor and outdoor, UV stable signs, all of which are compliant in all 50 states.

You can go to advancecorp.com and see their information. It gives you all the specs on their signs. You will not beat a Photopolymer machine in a production situation. They are the most productive way to produce ADA compliant signage in the business.