Sign Foam/Board

[c1get1@hotmail.com]

Anyone know where i can purchase sign foam in the Atlanta, Ga area? Also what sizes is the norm when ordering plus cost of the material which i can expect to pay, thanks guys,,Frank

[rookie432]

Frank,

Not sure about where to get in Atlanta but I can tell you to contact Coastal Enterprises. Just do a google search and you'll find them. They will be able to tell you who deals in your area. as far as sizes 4x8 is pretty standard and you can get thicknesses from 1/2" up to 3" standard and I think they will custom make other thicknesses for you. If you're making signs with them I reccomend using the 18lb signboard. It's nice and dense and is a little better if you accidentally bang a corner. This is from experience. Also buy their primer. Its heavy and dense and will give you a very smooth painting surface. However be prepared to dig deep into yor pocket. The last piece of 4x8x 2" I bought was around $300. Yikes!! THis is why I pre-sell the product. I dont have 3 or 4 sheets just sittin around the shop


Bill

[henry]

Frank,
We have purchased sign foam from Denver's Sign Supply in Louisiana. That was the closest dealer to us here in Northeasr Arkansas.
www.denversignsupply.com/

You can also go to Sign Foam web page and do a search for a distributor in Georgia
www.signfoam.com/

Henry

[valensign]

http://www.arrsys.com/sales/precisionboard.htm
http://www.goldenwestmfg.com/
Heres some great suppliers for precision Board..Golden west carrys even denser versions of HDU.. And the are Precisions Boards Sister Company nd the are very helpful

[logical@gmi.net]

Sign foam from Denver in 18lb was almost 500.00! Jimminy Cricket, that's high. What makes this stuff so special? I would think I'll be selling my customers on wood signs when I get my shopbot in two weeks. (I already have 4 customers for signs and 10 houses for cabinet doors if I can come up to speed quick enough.)

One more thing. During the presentation by Ted at the Jamboree he mentioned that the part wizard would v-carve "all" fonts. Did I hear something wrong? I do recall him giving a short example and he wasn't using one of the "red" fonts. I do remember that much.

Thanks,
Wes

[rgbrown@itexas.net]

Wes,

I can't and won't answer for Ted but, I do recall him saying the NEW BETA ShopBot software will carve any "True Type" font that is properly constructed. The new software will carve many fonts and I have had success using it for "V-Carving" signs.

Some of the "True Type" fonts are not "properly constructed" and will not carve properly. Others just plain flat don't look worth a damn, IMO.

Ron

[bill.young]

Hi Wes,

Ron's right...it's the new Typesetter in the Windows software. It will v-carve MOST true-type fonts, but occasionally runs into a font that is encoded strangely and gives un-expected results. We're working on eliminating as many of these problems as we can, but if you're using Typesetter in the beta software make sure that you look at the file in preview mode before cutting.

Bill

[logical@gmi.net]

Thanks yall. I was wondering if I would have to convince my potential customers of the wonders of those 10 fonts. It's very good news indeed that these fonts will/may be available for v-carving. If the program will vcarve some of the wingding type fonts we may be able to get vcarved stuff other than the alphabet!

LOML is ready to get me out of the house and into the shop. I am chomping at the bits to get my prt96 and get started.

btw. I read a different thread about how to make your table level. I used 4 fold down boat trailer jack stands with wheels for mine. Harbor freight has them for 17 bucks and they are rated at 1000lbs each. They have a handle for raising and lowering the wheel and they work great for moving and leveling the table.

Best regards,
Wes

[valensign]

Wes,
Sign foam and PB is a polyurethane based product thats why its so expensive. Petro based.. But the longevety and ease of use outway the cost.. It will never rot,Crack..Thay also brag it will not warp bit I can prove that wrong. The finishes and detail you can achieve are unbelievable but the down side it is fragile.. You wouldnt want it in a High traffic area where people could mess with it.. It is great for hanging signs as it is a lot lighter.. It does take some getting use to but once you do....The posibilities are endless.. But I'm biased.. Im also a resin mold and casting company.

[rgbrown@itexas.net]

" But the longevety and ease of use outway the cost.. It will never rot,Crack.."

I remember that being the selling point of all the fiberglass boats I have seen in piles over the years....

I remember one boat company stating the hulls were "Guaranteed for Life" unless stored in the water.....

[valensign]

Ron
True point. I think when they made these statements about HDU they were comparing it Wood. I look at HDU as a great alternative to wood. Especially when you start pricing pre-Made Cedar or Redwood blanks of the same size. You can buy the HDU in 2x4 peices also from
http://www.signweb.com/richardsdist/
it is the 15# but its reasonable enough to get your feet wet with it and to form your own opinion.
I'll be honest also about it. If I am sandblasting the sign I would only use redwood, Cedar or Graphicore just cause you cant beat the look of sandblasted wood.

[rgbrown@itexas.net]

William,

I won't get in an argument of material X that has a 4000 year record with Material Y that has a 20 year track record and tell you with a straight face this will make your girlfriend/wife/both more amorous, your children/future children/unplanned accidental children smarter and you will be a richer man and have a better life if you use material Y.

I will state salesmen will tell you the brown stuff is shoe-polish. Funny, it doesn't smell like shoe-polish to me. BUT, if one wants to call it shoe-polish and use it.... I'm not going to stop them. I'm not required to use it. If you ask me what it is, I'll have a different opinion than the salesman.

My only point is I can compare Hackberry to Rosewood.... or Cork to Live Oak. Both hackberry and rosewood are wood, aren't they? Both Cork and Live oak are Oaks, aren't they? If half a tree is quarter-sawn and the other half is flat - or plain-sawn, there will be a vast difference in the workability, stability and durability of the material.

I owned a Corvette once. I lived on a plastic boat for a few years. If I want to get into plastic, I'll buy another one or two. But, I'd rather have my tools, home and toys built of things that have a solid track record.

Ron Brown

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers

[gerald_d]

Er, Ron, what adhesives do you use to hold your beloved wooden tools/home/toys together?

Would you agree that the use of wood has had a revival since new "plastic" (epoxies, polyurethanes, etc) adhesives have come along? Also with new paints and sealers?

Or do you really use boiled bones for adhesives and beeswax/whale oil for surface protection??

[rgbrown@itexas.net]

Gerald,

Sometimes I use urethanes, sometimes epoxy, most times I use a true structural joint and peg it. And yes, the "NEW" adhesives and coatings have brought a revival in the use of wood and have changed HOW wood is used. Some of the uses are an advance, some are retarded.

And for your last sarcastic remark, yes I do use hide and/or bone glue for certain projects and I do use "traditional" finishes when it is the proper finish. But, the supply of fresh-water whales is low here and I use more bug poop and spirits or vegetable and nut oils with the waxes, bee and vegetable based.

It is my belief many have never seen or used the traditional finishes and/or adhesives. If one has never used them and only believes what the sales brochure says, the furniture produced and called "classic" will have fallen apart by now. For some odd reason, they are still here.

I also build things of aluminum, bronze and steel. There is a method using heat that tends to "glue" these things together. It is called welding. Or, one can use a method similar to doweling called "rivets" to attach them. At times I use that new invention "threaded fasteners". They have become quite "standardized" now except for the foreign stuff. It is called "metric" or something like that.

Ron Brown

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers

[logical@gmi.net]

I have two small children and because of this I have come to the conclusion that there is no stronger glue than a mixture of cereal and milk, especially when dried to porcelain or any type bowl for that matter.

The bond between the bowl and the cereal is fantastic! It takes up to 30 minutes of soaking to get the cereal to release.

All kidding aside, I would like to see some chemist derive some glue out of this combination.

[rgbrown@itexas.net]

Wes,

That would be a filled "Casin Glue". When cooked a little it does become highly water-resistant. Thr modern derivatives are called "Plastic Resin" glues.

These were the glues early aircraft used.

[gerald_d]

Now that I have climbed back into my chair after rolling on the floor with laughter - what was this thread about again?? Aha, Sign Foam / Board. Did you get that Ron? Now please stop distracting us with your stories of how you told Noah to build his ark.

[valensign]

Ron,
Just for the record.. I love wood and I use it about 80% of the time. Especially Black Walnut and Purple-Heart. There is nothing in the world that can compare to finished beauty of wood. But there are alternitives.. Why would I want to waste nice wood when the customer wants painted Raised letters with Scooby next to it.. And by the way.. Hide Glue is a fantastic medium if your going to do "Glue Chiped Glass" See I know some Noah Building techniques also...
Wes maybe we can start a market for some of these new/old glues another fantastic glue is Egg Whites and water.. (I have used it for gold leaf when I ran out Gelitian Size)
I'm One of the younger Generations trying to learn about all the old world techniques so we can keep it alive when the Geritol Generation passes

[rgbrown@itexas.net]

" so we can keep it alive when the Geritol Generation passes"

DAMN, the years creap up....

At 53, I'm just beginning to feel I know much about wood and working it. Plain gelitan, "Knox", is a good glue. The bad thing is the real "old Timers" didn't have access to the knowledge base we have now. Many would know "how" but few would know "why?"

The main reason the "old timers" didn't use epoxy/urethane/resin glues and finishes we do is they didn't have them. Many of the "new and improved" things of my childhood were only "new" and caused more problems than they cured.

It will be a few years before we know if "Sign Board" is a miracle product or just something to sell (sign board is in the post to keep Gerald happy). If the time decay/destruction exceeds the time most businesses are active, it is the right product for the job.

[gerald_d]

Crikey Ron, only 53 and you sound like my grandfather! (I am a young 48 this year). Yeah, even paper maché sign boards will outlast most companies and corporations these days . . . . . provided that you seal them with plastic of course.

[valensign]

Ron,
I mean the Geritol Generation with all loving respect. I learned my wood working and other skills from a Prisoner at the Colorado State Pen and Thats what I called him.. No I wasn't in Prison. in the mid 70s I grew up on a campground in the middle of nowhere and the Prison Farm was across the street. So I went over there all the time and they taught me alot of woodworking, metal working,Leather working and Counterfieting

[papadaveinwy]

William, I'm glad you listened to me, at least the part on the counterfieting, I see you didn't get caught, Good boy. Now an a serious note Gerald and Ron I knew there was someting about you two, Just Youngsters!!!!!!!!! any way guys I'm Back!!!!! just got back from Idaho after saying a sadfull goodbye to my beloved shopbot. oh well I guess I'll just have to watch the forum and cry for awhile till I buy my next one. William what part of Colorado did you live in My home town is Canon City right where all the 6 prisons are and I lived in Montrose just down from Delta where the one honor farm is.David in Wyoming. P.S. no guys I didn't live in the big house.

[valensign]

David... Thats a trip.. Canon City is my home town too. Thats where I learned everything.. You know the Campground 1 mile west on hwy 50 By The prison gardens ( Now its the college and quarry)..
IF you were there through the 70s and 80s you probly knew my dad. He was the Sheriff for 12 years. Same Name.. But now there are 18 Prisons.I just left there a year ago. My is wife is trying to get a job in Chaffee county and we will move back around the Salida area.(She works for the Park service) Hence Nebraska... Email Me I would like to talk to you more about Home..

[Bano119]

I use HDU on 95% of my exterior work, 15lb strength. I laminate it to exterior plywood with polyurethane glue and coat the edges in epoxy. There is no waste with this product, the paint lasts far longer, and there is no movement. Its expensive, but relative to prep time for a wooden panel, there is no comparison. Check our work @ WWW.WECARVE.COM

[rookie432]

William,

Just wanted to comment on your sign post on letterheads. Stuff looks great. Especially the Cattle sign. You should post here too.

Bill

[valensign]

Ok Bill I will Do that. Ill start a new thread

[valensign]

Ok I cant figure out how to put photos in on this BB. So here's the link to my online storage of photos More will be comming soon and eventually my web site hopefully by the end of the June... (yea right)
http://incolor.inetnebr.com/debekker/
Just click on the file to veiw picture.
Thanks for the complement Bill,

[Dan_Tech@Charter.net]

Couple trivial points about other materials.

If your lucky enough to have a local Owens Corning supply house using series 400 / 600 you can pick up sheets for the $20 range. Density is analagous to 8-10lb HDU. Not bad for the customer that needs the cheapest option - not really req. for exterior but I have a set thats still up after 2 years. Make sure you study up on your coatings tho, almost all of the fails I have seen are due to coating / adhesive reactions.

Call GE plastics in your area - they carry a sign foam substitute. Precision Board i think... More than likely you have at least 3 options from various manufacturers - just make some calls.

I use the HDU for letters - but my favorite material is .5 pvc. Handles the required beveled or rounded edge better than HDU to avoid paint fail with a crisper look. The handling time is faster IMO as well. I can cut, prep and put my first coat of finish on a PVC letter in half the time than an HDU. I may be just set up different than others. When making exterior signs I always back the pvc with aluminum for rigidity but so far the pvc outperforms hdu IMO. Lil more expensive but much less hassle.

The biggest time savings I experience is my finishing time. By finishing the letters seperate from the sign everything gets done faster - no worry about spills or drips.

The other item I use is 2lb - 6lb extruded foam blocks. I get them cut down in 2" slabs - they run about $16 a sheet on average. Route like butter and really grab the finish. They have less flex than the owens corning when hot. We use this foam for our California letters at malls.

[artisan]

Hi Laff. I'm also a big fan of PVC (komatex, sintra etc). Where do you get the 2-6 lb extruded foam blocks? Thanks....D

[Dan_Tech@Charter.net]

I tracked down my supplier by calling a movie prop shop. I need to visit them soon to get a fiberglass hard coat formula and I will ask them what keywords you can search with.

Theres a new expanding spray system as well. You get a two part liquid and gun and spray out the amount you need into a form. The supplier made it sound easier than falling off a log. I'll let ya know what the reality is when I get my sample kit. Probably will give me a 12th toe.

[ralph]

I am carving a sign for a church that will be 4'x6'. It will be carved on both sides
I am considering using high dencity urethane board . I am looking at 1.5" thick 18 lb density.
It will be suspended between a post on both ends.
I don't have any experience with this material, and was wondering if it will be strong enough to withstand our strong winds in Nebraska? It will be located in an open area . or will it need to be thicker ?

[Brady Watson]

Ralph,
You will need a frame to support the 6' span. I frequently mill two 1.06" dados/channels 1/2" deep in the center faces of this style sign. Then epoxy the 2 halves together to a 1" square AL tube frame. You could also use steel for the rails, just be sure to paint it well for the outdoors.

-Brady

[elcruisr]

Having experienced the winter winds in western Nebraska first hand (and I moved to Florida where the only big winds are hurricanes, right?). You might want to laminate the foam to a stronger core. We have done larger signs by using a plywood core as long as the edge is sealed. We have also glued together two layers of 1.5" 22lb foam on a large sign for wind resistance. Polyurethane foam works great, just watch the creep while it cures!

Eric

[ralph]

Thanks for the input.It Now apears to me the simpler way would be to sandwitch 3/4 plywood in the middle glueing foam filler stripps around the plywood so it is completly sealed.
I need to keep this sign as economicle as possable. So am wondering about the thickness and density of the foam. The carved out area will be .55" into the foam. So was wondering if .75"
foam would work since it will be glued to the plywood core for support.
I have no experince with this foam so any input about density would help.

Thanks Ralph

[billp]

Ralph,
Another option to consider is the use of one of the aluminum products such as "Aluminite" which you can find at places like Harbor sales (www.harborsales.net (http://www.harborsales.net)).
Advantages; very strong, very light, excellent for backing up foam and other mediums, and almost any "glop" ( I like silicone) will hold materials to it.
Disadvantage; About twice the price of plywood, but you might recoup that through the saving of time/materials in the edge sealing of the plywood.

[Brady Watson]

Got me thinking, Bill.

Why not Trupan or Extera? MUCH cheaper than sign foam and the Trupan mills nicely. As long as it is sealed properly, it should do the trick.

-Brady

[billp]

Oops, I spelled the name of the above product incorrectly. It should have read "Alumalite".

[kerrazy]

Ralph,
I would use 15lb Sign Foam or Precision Board 1" thich sandwiched with 3/4" MDO. I would also create a tenon with the MDO so it can be used to secure it to the posts. Again ensure you seal the edges of the MDO. I would also depending of the design have some one create a metal frame to cap the piece. It finishes off a sign of this size real nice. You could cut a template out of MDF for you metal manufacturer so he has the right bends and curves ofthe overall piece.
I would hesitate on extira as I have just recently had some primer and paint peel with it and have to experiment with it. give me a call if you want some more info. 613.880.8292
Dale