Raised Beveled Letters

[joe]

We have been hand beveling over the tops raised letters for years and bought Insignia to save the wrists. Don't seem to get it to do a satisfactory job.

The problem is that it just goes around the letter without raising the bit up and down. This carves off most of the serifs and reduces down to almost nothing of the thinner deliclate sides on the scripts.

Have any of you guys done this?

[artisan]

Hi Joe, we do it all the time. You must choose your strategy carefully. I am reviewing Artcam right now and it does an excellent job of this, so I would think that Insignia would do the same. In Artcam, you select "bevel carving" of course, but then when your dialogue box pops up, you must choose the size of the wall of your letter and the bevel angle of your bit. This will determine how much your letter is raised. You can also set the starting depth and finishing depth in your material. Of course, some fonts work better than others, but so far I am truly impressed with Delcam. Another strategy would be to bevel carve your font, then clear the surrounding material to a depth of say .5 inches, leaving a .5 inch wall on your letter. Hope this helps....D

[joe]

Darrell,

Thank you so much for the reply.

I think we have done as you suggested and set the side height, changes the bits from 90 to 120 degrees. We also set the depth of the cut to leave a prism affect. While this does help, we have not been able to get the bit to move up as it comes the deliclate thin area's, serifs and light strokes as you find on Times New Roman.

Insignia seems to only moves around the letter with no regard to differences to stroke width. Also it does not finish the intersections on the interiors of letters such as M's N's W's etc. It just goes around the letter leaving a gullet the diameter of the router bit.


Does your router move up and down as it comes to these intersection or does it grind away the serifs leaving them about half their original height?

When we V Carv, Insignia calculates the difference between the larger and smaller areas, raising and lowering the bit to give a beautiful affect.

Hope we can get it to work.

Perhaps we could send you a photo of a carved we have been doing by hand.

Much appreciation

Joe

Thanks again for your input

[artisan]

Bevel Carving should work the same way. It sounds more like your font is not translating well. Are you generating the font from inside of Insignia? It has to be something simple and don't hesitate to visit the Delcam forum or to call them up to solve this problem. Artcam is the same as Insignia...as I understand it... when it comes to fonts and the "Bevel Carve" feature is truly impressive. I can cut truly wild letters with huge "flags" and tiny serifs. The router moves almost magically in 3D....carving beautiful bevels....both thin and wide.

I'd be happy to look at your photos....I'm a carver myself and used to do hand carved signs...many moons ago....D

[joe]

Darrell,

I am so glad to hear that you can do this as I have grave reservations.

Does Insignia tell the router to raise up when it comes to small deliclate areas?

Does Insignia tell the bit to lover itself when it comes to the broader parts of a letter?

Does it move into the interior corners of letters like M or W or R or V, etc, giving a sharp intersection?

You can view some of our work on the SB location in the "Shopbots In Use"

Joe

[jay]

Raised Beveled Letters look great but cutting them in Western Red Cedar or Redwood can be a real pain. The wood is so brittle that often the serifs get knocked off. I have found that sometimes it is necessary to cut a shallow pocket for the letters then do the letters separately and glue them in place. Here is an example of Raised Beveled Letters with about 3/16" bevel. The dark line around the border is a 1/2" by 1/2" inlay of walnut. The "Property Management" was V-cut with a 90 deg. bit. Boy when you shrink a picture you sure loose some of the quality.
(Picture - Steen)



5714

[joe]

Jay,

Congratulations on a really nice sign. The color, shape and design is great.

I don't think you would get a better affect if you did a more aggresive bevel. We have had succes in keeping the ends of letters attached by sending the router around the letters clockwise .

We need to do a prism (V) beveled. The same as what you have done except the bit comes down to the center line. This is a classic roman style.

Is there anyone out there who has had any success at this? That is without carving down the serifs.

Joe

[gerald_d]

Have you guys tried to cut the bevel first, and then start raising the letters from the background, for less chipping?

[jay]

No. My software wants to do it all in one operation. Hmmm, next time I have you use Cedar or Redwood I will try that. Thanks Gerald.

[joe]

Darrell,

I have spend time this last week looking for a satisfactory answer to Insignia's claim to prism letters.

My hat is off to Del Cam for their concern with the problem. They called this morning and we have been swaping information. Nice folks anyway. I will post my appology here when I see anything like a good prism letter.

Insignia does not finish interior corners of letters. It also does not recognize the difference between the deliclate area's, such as serifs.

The best I can tell, it just does a profile around the letter and rounds off anything in the way. The same way you would do an outline in Correl and let it rip.

Please someone: "Show Me Wrong, and post a photo of a thick and thin letter. I seen several computer examples but have yet to lay my eye balls on a thick and thin script that is ledgable.

joe

[kerrazy]

Joe,
I am working on piece right now you will be intrigued with. I will post photos when completed.
I just came back from a week with Jay Cooke, in Stowe Vermont and learned a little trick regarding prismatic letters.

1st off insure you apply an additional contour line around the outside and inside of each letter to be carved. and do an online v-carve but don't go the total depth of the letter relief, only half to 2/3 of the depth. this will ensure your points on serifs are still intact and you will still get the look you are trying to achieve.

Give me a ring and I will explain more clearly. 613-880-8292

Dale

[artisan]

Hey Joe....sorry I haven't had much time to look at your stuff. We have a new regional mall opening here in 3 weeks....along with our regular spring work...and I've just been plain swamped. I just took a look at your letters and I believe I've possibly spotted your problem.
When you use the dialogue box, try this:
Start Depth: 0 (working top down)
wall height: 1.25"
finish depth: 2"
Select: V bit 32mm 90 degree as your carving tool
Select: Endmill 6mm as your profile tool
Material 2 inch (foam)

This will give you a letter, raised 1 1/4 inches, with a 3/4 inch bevel. If you are using 1 inch foam, halve or adjust the numbers accordingly. You will need to run first a carving file with the V bit, then a profiling file with the endmill.
I hope this helps...let me know....D

[joe]

Darrell,

I am so jealous about your workshop with Jay C. His web site was not up at my last attempt. This would be a great trip for the coming summer if he is still doing it.

Perhaps I will get a chance to call you in a day or so. I really appreciate your interest in this subject.

My hats off to ArtCAm as they have called a couple of times with assistance. I finally understand the limitation in this program. There are clean-up area that must be done by hand and it won't do the kind of work we are known for. I should have contacted J. Cook.

The visability of a beveled , prism, letter, when seen at a distance isn't very good unless it is gilded and then it is something very beautifull and visable

I know this type of work has a limited audience and so, lacks the of interest by many software companies.

Thanks again,

Joe

[kerrazy]

I have just posted a picture under projects and photos of some raised prismatic lettering that has been guilded. http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=2&post=13303#POST13303
Have look and any questions please drop me an email or call @ 613.880.8292

[joe]

Dale,

Congratulations on attending the Cooke worksop and the handsome HDU panel. Perhaps I should send you a couple of project photo's.

Your selection of Optima, sometime called Zaph is one of the best to use with Artcam as it has no serifs. This is Optima isn't it?

When you were and Jay's workshop did you use his Gerber router and how much difference is it than what you are using now?

We are condisering a purchase of the Gerber Sabre. What do you think?

Does Jay's router clean out the interior corner of letters? Artcam does not do it.

Thanks again, and the panel is great.

Joe

[kerrazy]

Joe,
I will have to double check the font used when I get to the shop but it does have serif, the picture is to small to see them I suspect. And yes Jay has a Sabre 408 that was very quiet and smooth, but it also carried a 70K price tag. You can clean out the interior of the letter using another bit like a 16th bit. That is what i did. I am sure ArtCam can do the same. You do that when you do the Area clear, not during the beveling process.
Dale
P.S. I would love to see your work as well. Also, as for Jay's Site just call him at the number posted on the site and he will be happy to discuss his Sign School with you.

[woodesign2@juno.com]

What is the going rate for sign prices I live in North East Ohio????

Thank-you!
Ray Hershberger

[joe]

Ray,

Your question is too open to give suggested prices.

Perhaps you could tell us what materials, sizes, design options, etc..

Lets say you are doing a rough cedar sign with letters routed out, this would bring a price of $70. per square foot with a minimum of $250. The same sign in redwood or HDU with raised letters will bring $125.00 per square.

Joe

[kerrazy]

Ray The sign shown at this link http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=2&post=13303#POST13303 Has been appraised by a master sign crafter for $700.00 it measuers 20"s in diameter. Material, Size and sign style all are key factors in pricing. If it is just flat letters (vinyl) then it is significatly reduced.
And oddly enough the only difference between a small sign and a large sign is quite frankly the material used, so even a small residential sign would be suprisingly more than you may think. Reason being is it requires the same amount of forethought and design, as well as preparation and tool changes as a larger sign. Bear this in mind when quoting sign orders.

Dale

Hey Joe, drop me a line if you get a chance I'd like to chat with you. 613.880.8292

[Ray Hershberger (Unregistered Guest)]

Joe,

The signs i would do are like 2D stepdowns, round overs, raised letters Etc. made out of cedar, redwood, polycarve all weather material for out doors, and sizes would be anywhere from 1 foot square to infinity.

Thanks Ray

[joe]

Ray,

Please send a file with suggested copy and materials. I will price it off of that.

We have a minimum price of $250. Carved signs are piced at $125. per square foot.