Texture surface on Cement

[butch]

Couple of questions, if someone has the time to answer.
I am putting a bid in on a sign that will be out doors. Right now there are two cement panels 6X15' with some metal letters and graphics on posts.
They want this to look like Sandstone and with a new name and some different graphics. I called Coastal Enterprises on the precision Board for the letters and coated with PB resin to harden the letters.
Also looked at their TSF-45 Texture, to place on the cement to get the texture of sandstone. Then I thought I would use sponge and paint to give the texture some color.
The letters would be placed over metal pegs drilled into the slab and held in place with silicon or such.
This sign sits on the ground, in the sun, snow and hail. As well they have lots of vandalism and most of the damage they see is from gun shots.
I talked with them, and they were quoted $12,000 to redo the sign using metal. They can not afford that. I figured I should be able to do the texturing and 64, 6-8" letters for considerably less than that. And by making another 20 back up letters they could be replaced when damage got extensive.
What experience have you had with TSF-45 texturing? Any idea on aprox. How many square feet the texturing will cover? Any experience with it sticking to cement, after the cement has been sealed? What would you suggest to hold the letters on, knowing that many of them will eventually have to be removed and replaced?
How to make the sign so bullets ricochet directly back at the shooter?
Any help is appreciated.
Thanks
Butch

[signtist]

That sounds good, but I would only make 2 or 3 extra letters to keep for samples when they need some more. I would silicone them on if they are that small. If they do get damaged, it's easy to bondo up and repaint. Keep good records of exact texture and colors used.
This is a great ongoing customer.

[joe]

Butch,

Here's my 2 cents,

We've made several concrete surfaced signs. Looking back I'd have to say using a hopper gun is the fastest and technically safest way to go.


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The pockets are made to inset letters.

I started with a structure of treated 2"X4"s and covered with OSB. Trowel on a Drivit like concrete, www.demandproducts.com (http://www.demandproducts.com) and spray the final coat with cheepit deepie hopper gun.

You can sand the surface to make any testure desired within four hours.

My first attempts were made with Extira. Much too heavy but I wanted to do some carving on the background and it did well for that. Spray coats of concrete. The final surface can be quickly sanded smooth.




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[joe]

Butch,

Another thougt:

You could make the whole sign with Preciaion board, harden it off with their epoxy or styro spray, (rolled on) and top coat.

Is this a double sided sign and what grqphics will be included?

[tuck]

I think Joe is on the right track with the spray-on simulated concrete. Nothing, however, is gonna hold up to a bunch of vandals with shot guns. I would think about 3/4" MDO as the background substrate with the sprayed-on finish and the MDO mounted a few inches off the ground on pressure treated post. You could then come back with say, cut out letters out of HDU, stud-mounted, and I wouldn't worry about a hardener. A sign like that could be repaired easily enough. 6' x 15'? I think you're gonna have seams, no matter what you do. Just my 2 cents.

[joe]

Mark,

There's perforated mesh, which comes in rolls, to bridge gaps and streghten corners. Once applied there's not much worry about cracks. For example, Taco Bell and structures with cretatious surfaces seldom suffer from fisures.

My best letters, for this process, is Extira since it accepts bolts and many kinds of adhesives. HDU's don't do well with metal studs and is more deliclate.

[tuck]

Joe, agreed about HDU and studs. I don't use Extira because I'm too old to lift up a sheet of that stuff! ;-)

We don't have enough info to help him much at this point anyway. The customer evidently has a budget or would have sprung for a bullet proof solid steel sign, lol! And at 6' x 15', I'm trying to think of something that could be assembled at the job site. I'm just a one-man shop, so I always think that way! :-)

[joe]

Mark,

Me too with the weight of Extira. I use it only for letters. I can't imagine not having it in our shop. The only problem is getting the 1" stock out of the truck.

I should get paid for all my free advertising for Extira. That and Precision Board are the two most used sheet materials used around the shop.

[butch]

Thanks
That helps.
I always appreciate the help in this forum. I'm stepping out of my area of comfort with this one, but the help from here helps taking on new challanges.

The sign is two sided. I believe they are going to pick up the cement slabs and move them to the new site. He wants the images to remain in metal as idiots like to shoot at the buffalo images. Thus I dropped the idea of a 2.5D buffalo carving done in foam board. But the lettering gets too expensive to do in metal(thus the $12,000 bid), so he figured if we keep a few extra letters in the D and O's we could replace them as needed.
I am a little concerned about texturing the cement and getting a good bond but sounds like it will work. I had not thought of spraying the texture on, good idea!

If they decide to go this route with me, I will post some pictures, before it gets shot up. What ever happened to target shooting empty beer cans?

One thing about it, it should be a yearly maintance job, so that is good I guess.

Thanks again for the help.

[butch]

Graphics
Forgot this.
They want two or three buffalo done in metal outline, jumping off a cliff. They would like that on both sides. But I am working on them to place the buffalo on the top and can be seen from both sides.

No other graphics, just the lettering.
Butch

[jamesgilliam]

Butch, "What ever happened to target shooting empty beer cans?" LOL With the price of fuel people are cashing in on them there days.

[joe]

Butch,

How did it go with this job?

Joe

[butch]

Joe
I was sent a pint of the texture paste, and put some on a board and painted it to look like rock. They looked at the texture and liked the fact it could be painted to look like sandstone. But not sure yet if they are interested. It's a government job, so I don't expect to hear for another couple of weeks at least.
As soon as I hear I'll let you know. It would be a fun job to do. I did show them a picture of yours.
Thanks
Butch

[jhicks]

Butch, this sounds like a very interesting project. One can also consider purchasing a premade EPS monument base and simply adding the details.
I find Monumentaldesigns.com to be a great source for us.
I feel for you doing all the research and experimentation and still not knowing if you will get the job.
We tend to say, we'll be happy to go forward with the design and/or pilot samples when we receive a 50% deposit.
That way they don't say, we're sorry its too expensive, or go elsewhere with all our design work and lose the job to someone who has all the benefits of our work at none of the cost.

That has happened to us before and we felt like buffalo jumping off the cliff.

Good luck.

[joe]

Excellent Point Jerry,

Since the work we do takes considerable time, both in conept and fabrication, it's essential to give the customer a price early on in the sales process.

For example, last week we had a college fraternity come by in need of a replacement sign. Their old sign had been vandelised. They caught the culprits on video tape. I was sure this would be an easy sale. NOPE. After thirty minutes of discussion about what they wanted, I put together the price quote and Emailed it. That estimate was 3K and the deal fell through. My loss was minimal. Had they wanted sketches I'd required 50% down.

I feel very good about the whole process.

[butch]

Thanks
That's where we are at right now. I did get the demo products from Coastal so I could show them what could be done. But I am waiting to get an approval before pursuing the metal work pricing and moving the cement panels prices, etc. One good thing about this, I did sell them 5 - fly boxes/card boxes with their name and a buffalo on it. So it wasn't a wasted visit.
Again, I appreciate everyones help. Without this forum, I would have just told them to 'take a flying leap!' but I feel confident if I get in a jam, someone here has probably already been there and done it.
But, if I do get the job, it will open several new doors. So I just try to visit with them and answer any new questions they might have.
Thanks
Butch

[butch]

Joe, James, Jerry

Just wanted to follow up on this. I didn't get the bid, it went to someone who is just going to V-Carve a panel and glue to the cement panels. But with your help, I was able to find the products needed to do what they had asked, and to put in a bid. I appreciate all of the help.

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Butch

[jhicks]

Thanks Butch, sounds like their original ideas on metal and durability went "over the cliff" and budget drove the final decision. Not unusual but clearly you could have V carved a panel if they had the courtesy to make you aware of their changes in design.
Oh well, you cant get em all but now you'll know next time. Sometimes its best to describe and ballpark a low, mid, and high price based on material and design options to give them a range of numbers and ideas. In the end, a government job may just have been destined to go to a politically connected supplier anyway.
Stay tuned, they will probably come back after the new gunshots anyway.