Hey Admin can we talk about a change

[khaos]

Can we discuss separating the cabinetry thread from the eCabinate/Shopbot Link forum? I have interest in any shopbot cabinetry just not eCabinate/Shopbot Link... It seems that a narrower topic would mean quicker results.

It is possible I am the only one.
Maybe the eCabinate/Shopbot Link forum should goe in the Creating design the cut files alongside part works and aspire etc...

Is this whole topic eCabinate/Shopbot Link and I am just reading more into it?

[thewoodcrafter]

Hey Joe,

That is a good suggestion but we don't care if you don't have the Link.
We are all cabinet makers here.
I know I would not mind generic cabinet discussions here.
I don't know if anyone else would mind either.

[dlcw]

Cabinetry is a great topic area. SB Link is simply a tool to make cabinetry more efficiently.

Cabinetry discussions independent of SB Link are a VERY good thing. I'd love to find out how folks squeeze out every dime possible in the manufacturing of a raised panel door to maximize value to the customer and profit to themselves. Even though I've been building cabinets and furniture for 35 years, there is still a lot I have to learn from a higher throughput production mode. Up until August of this year, I did all my furniture and cabinetry using a tablesaw, jointer, router, planer and lots of hand tools. I need to get my kitchen construction time from 5 to 7 weeks to down to 3 to 4 weeks. I know there are some cabinet makers who frequent this forum that could really shed some light on this. This is just an example. I know the CNC can help in this endeavor but I'm sure there is more beyond the CNC for being more efficient.

For those who are designing and constructing cabinetry, even if you don't purchase SB Link, eCabinets is a great design and sales tool. So discussions along those lines would be very appropriate here. I know there is an eCabinets forum at Thermwood but nothing says we can't have discussions here also :-)

I was looking at eCabinets long before I purchased my CNC. SB link is relatively new and I hadn't factored it into my plan at first. Later, when I saw what it was supposed to do, I looked at my business plan again and saw that it would, in fact, fit.

In the first project I did with eCabinets, SB Link and my PRS Alpha - SB Link was used for a total of about 4 days out of a 60 day project that ended with over 75 cabinets (some made to fit angled walls) being constructed and delivered to the customer. There were over 675 labeled parts from the CNC system for this project. That didn't include parts for raised panel doors, raised panel drawer fronts and faceframes - that was just cabinet carcass parts and drawer box parts. The rest of the the time and effort was cabinet making 101.

I'm sure forum members were using their bots to cut cabinet parts long before the link came out. It'd be interesting to see topic discussions on how to use the bot to do cabinetry without the link and things they've learned along the way and problems they have hit and solved.

When it comes down to it, all this high-tech software and machinery are just tools, that when used with imagination and care, can help produce some pretty fantastic things.

It stills takes us blue-collar woodworkers to figure out how to apply this technology to the profession so it makes sense. eCabinets/SB Link/CNC can't design and cut a cabinet without the woodworker who knows the best, time proven ways to design and make a long lasting cabinet.

Just my thoughts.

Don
www.dlwoodworks.com (http://www.dlwoodworks.com)

[Gary Campbell]

Joe...
The topic Header says "Cabinetry AND eCabinets/ShopBot Link. Cabinetry is first. And to echo what the guys said above: We were all cabinetmakers long before we put them to CNC. Fire away!
Gary

[ken_rychlik]

Don, The fastest way to build doors is with a Visa card, but I still build most of my raised panel doors too. I started not sanding anything until the door was done and that has saved a great ammount of time. Glue up the blank for the center panel, then raise the panel, cut stile and rails (each on a dedicated machine that doesn't require changing setups) After the door is glued up run the whole thing through the sander. You clean up the center panel and the stile/rail joints at the same time.

Next best time saver is prefinished plywood. Build a box and sell it. Don't spend a bunch of time on the inside finishing the box.

Always looking for a better faster way though.

Kenneth

[dlcw]

Thanks Kenneth.

I build all my carcasses out of prefinished - both sides - American maple plywood. This seems to have the tightest tolerances for thickness as well as much less prone to delaminate and warp when compared to the imported Chinese stuff.

Ironic, I use the exact same process when making my raised panel doors. Use the wide belt sander to flush and sand, then finish-sand with 150 or 180 depending on the finish.

For my next big job, I just might try Visa/MC for making my doors. That would sure save me a lot of time.

Don

[benchmench]

I have used Decorative Specialties (www.decore.com (http://www.decore.com)) but they may not be in your area. The only downside to using VISA/MC for doors/drawers is buying on credit then not getting paid by the customer. You can ring up some pretty hefty bills with door makers then all goes south when someone goes BK.

[ken_rychlik]

50% deposit, 40% deliverey day, last 10% upon installation completion.

Not a foolproof system, but it has served me well. "so far"

KR

[ckurak]

Dan,

Never use your own money to finance someone's job. I am not in the banking/loan business. I build cabinetry. (My bank doesn't build cabinets, and I don't make loans.)

50% deposit before being placed in the schedule.

45% BEFORE Delivery. Client can view cabinets at my shop if they so desire. (Saves the issue of "I forgot my checkbook. Just unload and install the cabinets because the plumber/electrician/painter is coming as soon as you finish, and my wife has a birthday party scheduled for Saturday night, so we really, really need to stay on schedule. Then, I'll just mail it to you." Yeah, right.

5% after "substantial completion". (That eliminates someone trying to hold out for some $2 item at the last minute. Never had it happen, though.)

If they balk at this, you might mention that the big box stores all require 100% up front before the order is even accepted. If they continue to balk, then maybe you really don't want them as customers. Trust your gut.

[ckurak]

I use Walzcraft for doors. (www.walzcraft.com (http://www.walzcraft.com)) They will ship. Quality is very good. Sizings are very accurate. They work in metric as well as Imperial. This is important to me because I build my boxes in metric. (Well, the hardware I use is based on a 32mm system, NOT "an inch and a quarter or so.")

And, they have more profile styles, wood selections, etc. than I can reasonably offer in my own shop. Plus, they do more than just doors. Lots of mouldings, etc.

Disclaimer: No, I don't own part of the company. I am just a happy customer.

[ghostcreek]

In my area I cannot find prefinished plywood except in large orders. Do you guys have a place that will let you buy small quanitity (10-25 sheets)? I am like Don T. Been building Cabinets for 30+ years, looking for a quicker method to building boxes. I have been using my ShopBot to add value (carvings, special features etc). But can't seem to break my old habits. I tell myself I can use my table saw and Drill to cut up 4x8 sheets as fast as my Bot. Am I fooling my self?
Glad to hear this is also for cabinetry, even without the Elink.

[dlcw]

Michael,

I thought the same way when I was first looking at CNC. I've always been a traditional (read - not high production) woodworker. My business has changed and I'm getting more cabinet orders. After looking at what was happening in the industry I decided to get a CNC and work with it. It turns out I can make cabinets faster with much higher quality with the CNC then I could before the CNC. As you are aware, pushing a sheet of plywood through a tablesaw is not the most stable operation in the world. Little variations, as you wiggle, add up. All these little wiggles disappear with the CNC. I'm using a lot more joinery then I was before because eCabinets, SB Link and the CNC make it so easy.

On top of better and quicker cabinetry I'm doing more bent form lamination because the CNC makes it so fast and easy to make bending forms then the old method of bandsaw, router trim, glue and screw it together. Now all my templates are done using the CNC. Cut them, pull them off the machine, glue and screw them together. Much more accuracy.

Would I go back? If you'd asked me that in the first 8 weeks I owned my Shopbot, I would have dumped it in a heartbeat and gone back to the old ways. After all the bugs were worked out of the hardware and software I can now say, no way am I going back to the traditional way of doing things.

Don
www.dlwoodworks.com (http://www.dlwoodworks.com)

[thewoodcrafter]

Michael, you are fooling yourself.

Don hit the nail on the head.

I have read it in the magazines and do believe that -
In the not to distant future if you don't go to CNC production you will not be competitive.

Until E-cabinet and the SB Link came along it was almost faster cutting on a table saw. Good software makes a big difference.
I can process 4 - 6 sheets an hour edgebanded, drilled ready to assemble. Can you do that on your table saw?

[ghostcreek]

Thanks for the "push" guys. I will get serious about using the shopbot for general cutting sheets. But to be fair, I can cut 4-6 sheets in less then an hour, using my panel saw. But the overall time saving I will look into. As i said, hard to change ways. But I desire to remain in business and be competitive. How long did it take you guys to get up to speed with using the Bot for panel processing? Is ECabinets & SB Link the best or only way to go? Thanks in advance, Happy Holidays to all.

[dlcw]

When you say you can process 4-6 sheets an hour with the panel saw - does that include all the mortise and tenon joinery with really minimized waste because of the way it can nest parts? Not just in straight lines for rips and crosscuts.

eCabinets/SB Link is not the only way to go. There are other options available. The advantage to eCabients (free) & SB Link ($1200) is the pricing. Other folks I've talked with have $50K+ design programs and $15K+ post processors to create the G-code and these are not Shopbot post processors. They haven't been written yet that I'm aware of. So price was a BIG factor for me as a very small shop. Support has also been outstanding through both ShopBot and Thermwood. Thermwood has a great set of online video tutorials on how to use eCabinets. Unfortunately nothing for SB Link though. Thermwood and Shopbot work together, when necessary, to get problems them solved. Support here is outstanding as well. People here are willing to share their experiences and knowledge freely (unless they are next door to you and a competitor).

As far as getting up to speed, as with all software there is a learning curve. Each person will be different depending on their available time to study and play. My first project was a 75+ cabinet project using custom room layouts and building my own seed cabinet library the way I wanted it. I felt somewhat comfortable after about 6 weeks. SB Link took me another couple of weeks. Had I gone to Thermwood and paid for a 1 week class, that would have saved me some time but cost me bucks and time away from the shop. Each person has to decide for themselves.

Have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!!

Don
www.dlwoodworks.com (http://www.dlwoodworks.com)

[thewoodcrafter]

E-Cabinets and the SB Link is not the only way to go but it is by far the best way to go. Software is key to efficient production and the Link makes it the easiest it could be.

Draw your room, insert the cabinets, show your customer, push a button to generate a TWD file, open that file in the Link, print labels and start cutting after you load a sheet. It is just about that easy.

When the pieces come off the Bot and after edgebanding they can be assembled by just about anyone with 10 minutes of training and little skill. The dado construction makes it that easy.
And I have always thought dado construction was stronger than butt joints.

[thewoodcrafter]

Don, you type too fast.

[ghostcreek]

Push comes to shove. The price seems ok (free software, $1200 link/postprocessor). I respect your opinions. I am gonna download the software and see what I can do. Thanks for the info (glad I asked!). now, what should I be aware of? Not details, just whatever you guys learned that might speed up my learning and what Not to do! My humble thanks again.
Happy Holidays to you.

[ken_rychlik]

Michael

You can't download it. You send in a request and they have to mail you a CD. Updates can be downloaded though.

The thermwood forum is just as helpfull as the bot forum, but if you really want to get up to speed fast, spend the money on the training they offer. It's another thousand dollars or so, but the learning curve on this software is pretty steep compared to any other cad/cam software I have run.

Kenneth

[thewoodcrafter]

Michael,
Don't get too excited about using the software. You can't download E-Cabinets yet (6.0 still coming).
You need to get a disc in the mail from Thermwood, then register it and have at it.
The Link can be downloaded but will not work without the $1295 doggle.

After you get E-Cabinets, work on library's of the way you build your cabinets. You don't need to make all the widths, just height and depth, the width is set when you populate a room. I don't even make these with finished ends. I add thoughs after the room is setup.
I have libraries of frameless, face framed, kitchens, baths, closets and some furniture pieces.

[dlcw]

Michael,

One of the big things you need to get used to is that there is very little drag and drop type of processes in eCabients. You need to find out where all the dialog boxes for parameter entries are located and how they all interact with each other. That was the hardest thing for me to get used. I'm used to TurboCad which is drag, drop, stretch, etc. There are A LOT of details that eCabients keeps track of when you put a cabinet together. One of things I struggled with was that the different editors are not consistent in how they operate. You just have to learn what these little things are and always remember which editor you are working in.

Start off simple (unlike my approach of 75+ cabinets spread over 3 rooms). Work on a single cabinet design. Learn all the little ins and outs of working with one cabinet. Then move on to a simple batch of cabinets, then move on to the the custom room layout capabilities. The room layouts are the most complex.

By all means, if you are serious, check out the online video training and the training manual Thermwood offers. I couldn't have done the project I did without the videos, this forum and the Thermwood forum to help. I had one other advantage when I started. I had a very bad case of walking pneumonia, so I had time I could dedicate in front of the computer until I got well enough to go back in the shop.

I think eCabinets and SB Link will provide a whole new outlook on how you do cabinet projects. It sure did for me.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!

Don
www.dlwoodworks.com (http://www.dlwoodworks.com)