Hardeners for Styrofoam

[joe]

For the past six months I've been asking around for a "For Sure" hard coat with EPS foam. I currently have a couple of signs, in the shop, and need to get working on them.

To save time, let me go over what I've previously done. Styrospray was my first attempt and I may return to it. It's main problem was it's too flexable. I need a coating that's truly hard. Hard enough a baseball will bounce off of it with any damage shown. I've built several which are now showing some faults.They were sprayed with exterior succo/cement. They are now showing joint cracks. Concrete and stucco end up being heavy when applied to a crack proof thicknes. Although they're definately hard enough, details are quickly hidden, and they are way too heavy.

It looks as if I'm going to need two different topcoats. The first as a hardner folowed up by a more flexable texturing coat.

The latest test was with good old Durhams Rock Hard Putty. That stuff is a dream to work with and may be the winner for my first coat.

These signs aren't cheap and should get the best of materials. Suggestions would be appreciated.

Where is Bill P. when I need him?

[kartracer63]

Joe,

Check with Glen Kadelbach at Innovative Foam. I went to the camp at his shop. He works a lot with foam coatings. www.innovativefoam.com (http://www.innovativefoam.com)

[navigator7]

Joe,
I'm looking for the same thing.
In the foam biz, they call it Theming" or "Props" I believe.
I had a customer who wanted a 26' tall dinosaur replica of his logo. (He didn't want the $86,000.00 price tag ;-(
I went to a carver in BC who said she sprayed bed liner plastic on her foam models and then gel coated the outside.. The problem is...the equipment to do that is lights out expensive.

I found this and don't know if it's the same as what you call styrospray:
http://www.smooth-on.com/Spray-Materials-St/c1281_1287/index.html

But then I found this:
http://spraymaxliners.com/garage-floors
Spraying your garage floor with a bedliner product.
It's a long video...just watch the gun part.

If this new system is true...spraying hardcoat might be getting cheaper by the day?

I got the best information (2 years ago) from these guys in Canada:
http://www.3dcutting.com/products-frogcoat.php
Heavy Industries is their corporate veil and talent pool to apply real world solutions using the machines Streamline Automation makes.
These guys are awesome.
They changed their website and screwed up all the old pics they had.
Check out the dinosaurs....best I've seen.
http://www.heavyworld.com/

HTH

[mitch_prest]

some of you guys that do a lot of foam might want to take a look at the frogcoat site. They have tooling for cutting foam with a 10 inch length of cut...

m

[joe]

I, for one, really appreciate the links you fellows have posted. Each diserves close inspection and review.

[joe]

Chuck,

Thanks again for the links. It took some time but I've finished the searches. Here's what I've found.

Smooth On offers a spray gun simular the others like Demand Products. It costs approx $750 and needs a booth with fresh air. The coating material are in the $80. range.

The truckbead liner materials attacks EPS foam.

Frog has some attractive 3D art but their spary system is megga expensive. Your correct about Heavyworld. The website doesn't work for me.

Still searching

[navigator7]

Glad you looked Joe!
Heavyworld musta hired an out of work hollywood website builder. They Foo Foo'd the website to please the web artist, IMHO, and not the public. The website worked on my Mac but what a PIA.

Before, it was a beautiful simple website full of incredible art work and real achievements in the theming and prop biz.

Three or four years ago I was exploring a Streamline machine.
After the over all costs past half a mil....there wasn't enough room in my small town for all the ginger bread it needed. ;-)
Especially a half mill.
Dealing with the waste stream was a huge cost.

HeavyWorld sent me some samples of their plastic system. You literally could bash it with a sledge and only a mar at the impact. Easily fix-able. It truly was amazing stuff but it cost. I think it was melted plastic extruded to shoot out a gun.

A great comic thing they did was create this foam carved i-beam from EPS foam. They coated it with something....not plastic....but Old Timers has got me. It is artistically finished to look like a rusty i-beam with stains...I assume. It feels cementitious.

I just finished standing on it. If I wanted to break it I could but it would take many tries. I can't break it by hand. No way EPS foam could support me with that shape and would fall easily apart in my hands!

5813
5814

It's worth it having comedy like this in your shop. I never tire of watching people wonder WTF is this piece of rusty steel doing on a very weak shelf in the shop? They try and pick it up and nearly knock themselves out. Great conversation starter that any salesman or artist would relish. ;-)

[joe]

Thanks for posting

Your I beam gives the impression of weight and stregnth. They have a great image idea.

No doubt there are coating materials with very hard characteristics but us little guys can't justify the expense.

Thanks to this forum and others there's a steady stream of suggestion and products. At sometime I'm sure there will be an answer, hopefuly not too far down the trail.

The criteria is:

Does not melt EPS Foam.
Not dangerious.
Easy application.
Affordable.

This afternoon I will experiment again with Styrospray 1000. They recommend the Wagner, $19.00 sprayer. It was also recommended to sprinkle on sand, adding texture increasing adhesion of the final paint surface.

I'll post pix when I have something intersting.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

O, by the way, the I beam looks to have a coat of Sculpt Nouveau Iron finish. Anything with SC Iron patina looks like the real thing.

[scootie]

Joe, love the sign work you do, see lots of it here and the Aspire forum.

On coating EPS and light weight foams, we use the 2-part urethanes with a cartridge gun like mentioned above. This is the same equipment the guys doing truckbed liners use, maybe a nearby shop would coat your foam projects, they should have access to the urethane coatings, if not let me know and I'll send you a company contact I buy from. The coatings are sold in case lots of (6) 1500 ml dual cartridges, and covers app. 130 sq. ft. at 1/8" thick for $165. This comes out a whole lot more economical than HDU, I like the HDU for hand carving but for CNC stuff, a $15 2" thick piece of 'blue-foam' and $80 worth of the coatings makes for a lot more profit compared to $350 plus for the HDU. It's kinda messy and requires a fresh-air respirator hood, we lay cardboard on the shop floor and around the area where we're working to catch any overspray. This stuff sets up in about 5 to 10 minutes depending on the temp and humidity and once set you have a hard time getting of anything you don't want it on. The finished coat ranges from smooth to a light orange-peal finish depending on your spray technique. It can be primed with latex and finished with any paint or texture that is compatible with your latex, or can be primed and finished with automotive paints. Really tough stuff, if you need extra protection two coats could be applied by keeping in mind the thickness and allow for machining to maintain details.

Larry
www.elliott-design.net (http://www.elliott-design.net)

[dakers]

I went down to visit the largest foam monument maker and spent the day seeing how they operate and what they use and why. That was about 10 years ago. some coatings required primer before the acrylic aggregate to prevent failure so they said polyurea was their choice coating at the time. after months of study on the sprays, the cost, the hot wire equip and the space needed i decided to just buy the wholesale products ready to go. Since ten years ago there has cropped up so many new wholesalers i cant keep up with them. A good model for a company that seemed to be doing great with monuments was Denyse sign company. which used to be woodgraphics.
the website is www.woodgraphics.com (http://www.woodgraphics.com) they have had phenominal growth and have done well with the foam monuments.
i decided not to try to make them but i am interested in reading about people who do not give up like i did. Maybe the answer is just around the corner for a suitable coating

[joe]

Larry,

I appreciate your kind words and offers of assistance. I'm always looking to improve my tecniques and signs and could use your help.

I've had the pleasure to study your website. They are some of the best signs I've seen. I get charged up seeing portfolio's with this kind of depth.

I'm somewhat knowledgable about the hardcoat you've used. That may be the direction I follow. Please provide me with your supply and product line. At this time I've had this spray applied to two signs. Like you say, it's a good hard coating. I don't mind the orange peal effect since we end up spraying with textured acrylic stucco. Our local cost is between $450 to $800.

I believe the spray aparatus costs about $750. I'm not sure about the fresh air equipment. Probably about the same cost.

I'd like to find a more user friendly material. It may be beyond the scope at the time but I'm searching.

Like you, I enjoy the of HDU but shouldn't be over used. I'm leaving it behind for this sort of work. While HDU carries fine detail it a poor structural material. Way too costly for structure alone.

Tomorrow I start another 2lb beadboard ground sign. It measures 7'X5.5'X8". I'm have the shape cut by the local foam dealer. They have a hotwire router and do an excellent fabrication. As stated earlier, I carve the detail work on the router and apply it to the foam board. This process will take a week.

Your suggestions are appreciated.

Joe

[kevin]

first off I have no experince with foam
But I do have huge experince with paints and clearcoat.I use to work at private jet interiors and painting.
I think that no matter what your finish is only as hard whats below.
Its like an egg anything you spray on may be 3 to 5 mils thick its not like your spraying steel
If there is movement below it will crack .
Unless you get into fiberglass
Hope i made sense I am terible typist

[joe]

Yes Kevin, your question makes perfect sence. Like you, it was difficult getting my mind around the process.

When Peachtree and Howard Industries came on the market there was no going back to the old superstructre of wood and angle iron. Those techniques are expensive and time consuming.

I'm still looking into using fiberglass, chopper gun, much like boat building. Also I'm including plywood in some of the interiors where removeable panels are placed. It's not much diffeent than the Lost Wax process used in bronze casting. Once the shell is complete the foam is immaterial.

Lets not limit ourselves to surface treatment. I'm considering combining mahagony, cedar, and redwood also.

I wouldn't rule out the baseball strike as a stregnth test.

Hope this provides some answers.

[navigator7]

Joe,
Just brainstorming along with you....

Along the lines of Lost Wax, have you considered making a mold with Portland, Acryl 60 to replace water and lots of fiber?
Kinda lends itself better to multiple products ... but I know this mold making method is waaaaay cheaper than fiber glass, is not flammable, requires the simplest of tools, gloves is the only protection you need, no vapors to tick off neighbors and no enviro laws to knock on your door.
With the proper application technique, this mixture will reproduce finger prints. You get back what you cover with mud.
I've pulled this mixture off glass and plastic and can see a reflection.

I've seen panels made like this as big as a man used over and over and over.
Strengths to 12,000 psi (In compression)

Back to foam. I'm imagining you produce the work in positive foam. (But you only produce the surfaces you need.)
I'm thinking fiberglas resin attacks foam. What does gel coat do to foam? Not sure. Regardless, the fiberglass still becomes the mold and you still need to make a positive.

But concrete would readily accept sealer, release agents, readily accept gel coat and reproduce sharp features.

Does this make sense?

I got links if you are interested.

[nschlee]

You might try building coats of System Three's Yacht Primer. It's a thick 2 part water based epoxy, it can be sprayed, rolled or brushed. The stuff sets up rock hard after 3-4 days, probably not gonna pass a baseball bat beating tho.

[jerry_stanek]

Joe you may want to check out this post.

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/17997/41425.html?1241583512

[joe]

Thanks fellows,

I've sent an Email requesting information and assistance from Gleb K,.

Good lead Jerry, Thanks

Perhaps

[scootie]

Joe,
Being new to the forum I was unsure if posting product names was acceptable didn't want to get reprimanded for breaking the rules.
Here's the info on what we use:
http://www.chemicaldesigncorp.net
They're in Loganville, GA and have always been a pleasure to deal with. Call them at 800-578-8555 they'll set you up with the sales-rep for your area. Check out their website, there's a lot of info on all their product lines. The coatings for foam will be listed as Chem-Coat 9-2538-1.
http://www.chemicaldesigncorp.net/PDF_Files/2538.pdf

I have tried the StyroSpray mentioned by Chuck and it is a great product, gives a very smooth hard finish, the only drawback was it taking several coats to get the buildup needed, it would be ideal as a hard top coat over the urethane, you could get a glass like surface.

Hope this helps you with your project.

Larry

[kevin]

Curios how it will work outside?
Will it fade like vinly siding?

Please keep posted

[joe]

Kevin,

Check out the above website and StyroSpray.

Larry,

Thanks for the advice. I've checked on plural spray units a few months ago. I didn't find them user friendly. They are pricey. Starting out at 30K. As a one man shop, the numbers don't work.

I have a new shipment of Styrospray to try out. I'll be posting my results a little later.

[scootie]

Joe,
The spray gun was around $750, the fresh air respirator around $150, a small oiless (diaphram type) compressor for the air supply $150, and it takes a decent air compressor capable of delivering 90 - 120 psi @ 10 - 12 cfm to run the gun ($1500 2-stage compressor) a few throw away paint suits and you're ready. So, for less than $3K you could set it up from scratch. The $30K is for the portable unit that has everything in one package, if I were doing roofing or construction insulation then the turnkey unit would be the way to go, but when you only need to coat a few panels or letters a month then putting together your own system is a lot more economical.
The StyroSpray is slick but I think you'll find getting the build-up thick enough will be very labor intensive. I tried that routine because I don't really like to put on a paint suit and breathe forced air to use the 2-part urethane but when it comes to coating something in an hour compared to spending several hours to get the same thickness, the choice was easy. You can pre-mix the StyroSpray, put it in the fridge for a few hours and let it start setting up, and brush it on but it still takes several coats, and it also sags/runs on verticals. The cost between these two consumables is very insignificant, it's the cost between the labor that is my influence. I've had the 2-part gun for three years and was looking for an alternative process, but went back to it after trying the others.

Kevin, if you're referring to either of these products, yes, the 2-part urethane needs to be painted or finished, it will darken in a few months unfinished. In it's natural color it is like a manila folder. The StyroSpray should be painted also, it is white in it's natural state.

Both products have their uses and will both create a hard finish, the urethanes "foam" up a little and create a thicker surface faster and can be painted within 30 minutes.

Larry

[navigator7]

Here is an ad but it is really a great video about Styrospray.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XoGn-N-Gjg

[joe]

Thanks Chuck,

It' a good video. Were giving StyroSpray a go. One of the advantages, for me, is how user friendly it is. Since there aren't catalyzers involved, there's less danger in breathing. A regular paint mask is satisfactory.

[rb99]

If foam did not get attacked by it, what would the best hardener coat?

The reason I am asking is years ago I used to airbrush, and I learned how to spray lacquers over enamels. Normally the lacquers would be like applying paint stripper.

So I am wondering if there is a primer that could coat the foam, them apply the foam attacking hardener coat over that? Even if they are not compatible.

Thanks,

RIB

[joe]

Yes Richard that's the process.

Styrospray is not only a hardcoat, it provide a barrier coat. Please review the video Chuck posted.

[kevin]

Thanks for the education
The product looks killer

Joe when you do your first piece test it in a batting cage

[joe]

This is a hoot. It's an example of how a Hot Wire Router works. Choose how it's made.

http://www.designstonesigns.com/videos.aspx

[myxpykalix]

very cool but it looks like an awful lot of expensive equipment and labor goes into creating one of those. But cool!

[joe]

Jack,

None of that equipment is necessary. On the one's I've built, I order the foam already shaped and do the Router work myself. They're fast to build at about half the cost I'm used to.

Please review the photo at the first of this post.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[pro70z28]

I have some of the Envirotex on the shelf that I thought I'd try on the pink "Menards" foam. Is that coating paint ready (latex) when it dries or does it require scuffing or wiping down with a solvent? I've used it for other stuff & it has a very glossy finish. Sanding the model I'm building would take some time to get into all the detail work. Maybe a quick go over with a scotchbrite pad?

[khaos]

Hey Joe, what about: http://hotwirefoamfactory.com/home.php?cat=249

It seems to be a value. Might be worth a call to the rep...

[joe]

Thank Joe,

I'll see if they have any small samples. Their prices are for small quanities and very expensive.

I wouldn't be surprised if their dry mix isn't Durhams Rockhard Putty, re-packaged.

Thanks for the lead.

Joe

[navigator7]

@ Joe,
I missed your link above showing how a hot wire works making a foam sign.
It was a hoot!
Nice work and all. I'd buy one.
The roll-on stone decal put me a little on edge. As a stone guy....it assaulted my senses.
Faux rock is so easy and even more natural than real rock if you know how to treat it.

But then, when the finished piece was suspended in air...I lost it.
The aluminum welds were cold. It's gonna break in the wind.

Is it me or does these little details rubs other's artistic senses the wrong way?

(Semi sorta serious ;-)

[XtremeTimma]

hey I have about 50 old lobster pot buoys made of styrofoam that i woud like to preserve in the outdoor weather. maybe a type of glossy acrylic that would allow the painted colors to show just fine? any ideas on a not so expensive solution? thanks!