YOU price these signs!

[tuck]

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/LanierOBGYNL.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/LanierOBGYNS.jpg

The first is a 4 x 8 and the second a 2 x 8. The proposal is for routed single-sided and painted 1 1/2" HDU signs with changeable name panels (reverse routed on 1/2" HDU panels), mounted on smooth sawn painted cedar post. The horizontal "beam" you see under the signs is not really a beam, but an extension of the 6mm Polymetal backing boards, glued to the HDU with Gorilla glue.

Post to be set in Quickrete. Signs are attched to post via nailers on the inside back of the post. Installs are within 12 miles of the shop. I can tell you that the total cost of materials for me to make both signs and install them is $1,600.00. Any questions? Ok, price 'em up!

[tuck]

Oh yeah, just for kicks, here's a pic of one of the signs they are wanting to replace:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/LanierOBGYN.jpg

Have you never seen a more gorgeous sign? LOL!

[jben007]

Hello, what was the total machining time on this sign.If you don't mine me asking.
Thanks,
Ben

[tuck]

Ben, to cut the panels on my old Bot, maybe 8 hours total including the name panels. Then ya gotta paint them. Plus ya gotta custom cut the cedar post, sand 'em nice and pretty, and prime and paint 'em. They are 6 x 6's. Gotta machine them by hand with a skill saw and hand router. Bottom "wraps" on the post is table saw and miter saw work.

[jben007]

Hi, I was trying get And Idea ,I'm a cabinet maker, so all my software is geared towards that , and I can appreciate the labor involved as well...all those little things add up.I use autocabinets from Routercad,then Import the DFX into Enroute wood 3.3 where it does an automatic toolpathing and nesting.It'really works great .So now I'm experimenting cutting some 2.5 D reliefs and lettering.Thank for the Info
Ben

[tuck]

Alright you sign makers out there,...what's your price?

[jben007]

Hello mark ,another off topic question,What type of paint do you use on the HDU foam, Automotive types,I would thing it would need to stand up to UV rays.I know this can be a problem clear coating exterior doors.
Thanks again ,
Ben

[tuck]

Ben, in this case I will use Behr exterior latex enamel for the green background and OneShot Metallic Brass enamel for the "goldish" copy color. The post will be primed then painted with either Behr Pure Black latex or Porter DTM acrylic. Probably the Porter, as I have almost a gallon left over from another job.

[steve4460]

$100-$150 sq ft + install, and tool rental like post hole auger etc . 50% down payment , and the rest bevore you deliver to install.
Bot on

[benchmench]

If you break this down into it's Material, Labor, Overhead and Profit components, I would estimate the price around $5,900. You can plug your own numbers into the attached spreadsheet.

Pricing with the square foot method assumes that all square feet cost you the same to produce. It doesn't account for any components that could cost significantly more. Your mileage may vary. Thanks Mark for raising a great topic.
Jobcost Spreadsheet

5948 (16.4 k)

[benchmench]

The above is for the 4x8 sign. For both signs, $6,762.50.

jobcost spreadsheet both signs

5949 (16.4 k)

[tuck]

Dan, what program/utility do I need to open your Jobcost Spreadsheet attachments?

I get "Windows Cannot Open This File"

[andyb]

Mark,
It is a Microsoft Excel file. You can download Open Office for free to open it if you don't have Excel.

Andy B.

[gittel]

This may be a bug in the forum software.
To view the spreadsheet, save the file to disk (on your desktop).
If you don't specify the extension in your save dialog, it will be saved as "Jobcost-29749.unk".
Change the name to "Jobcost-29749.xls".
If you have Microsoft Excel or Open Office (free) installed, you should then be able to open the file as a spreadsheet.
A better way to post shared spreadsheets would be to use Google Docs shared spreadsheets. It's really easy to use.
Mike

[tuck]

Thanks Andy! How ya doing?


Dan, nice work and good job. I've been making signs like these for some time now. I did some quick calculating in my head after I finished the designs and came in @ $6,900.00 for both signs, so we're singing off the same page, as it were.

I gave the proposal to the customer(s) today and they about fainted. LOL! They immediately started on me to come down with my price, to which I responded; "Do your patients try to get you doctors to cut them a deal when they come in for visits?" That ended that, lol. I explained to them that there were other ways to make the signs that would be somewhat less expensive, like making the m out of all Polymetal instead of routed HDU, but they had seen another routed HDU sign I had done nearby and really liked it. They said they'd get back with me next week (read: "We're gonna shop this around"), and I said "Fine. I'll be here."

Everybody wants nice signs, but not everybody wants to pay nice money for them. Too often, customers have little to no experience purchasing custom signs and have absolutely no idea what they cost. They think you go back to your shop and pull them off a shelf. I could come down maybe $300.00 and still do very well, but I'll keep that ace up my sleeve for now. ;-)

[signtist]

Mark, I'll take a stab at it. . . . .$4000
The cost of materals is more like $700.
This to me is a plain sign. Nothing fancy. I would do the name panels a little different.
Not all jobs are "Glory Jobs".

[andyb]

Hey Mark,
Doing good. Can't wait to see the sign. Them Drs. are different animals. They charge you out the ying yang for there services but don't want to pay for yours. You can tell by looking at some of their signs.

Andy B.

[tuck]

"The cost of materals is more like $700. "

My cost locally, John:

2 sheets 1 1/2" Duna (foam) = $607.56

1 sheet 1/2" Duna (for name panels) = $116.00

2 sheets 6mm Polymetal (backing boards) = $190.00

4 6x6x8' cedar post = $240.00

4 2x10x8' cedar planks (for the bottom "wraps") = $95.60

2 gallons of primer = $50.00

2 gallons green exterior background paint = $60.00

1 pint One Shot metallic brass enamel = $26.50

4 80 lb. bags quickcrete = $15.40

miscellaneous (glue, screws, roller pads, etc. = $40.00

Total = $1,441.06 + tax (7% here) =$1,542.00

Ok, so I'm over by $60.00 or so. I call that a "cushion".


Once I've rounded up all of the materials, all I have then is a big pile of materials.

I totally agree that they are relatively plain signs, nothing too fancy, nothing 3D or anything like that, but the cost of materials is what it is, right? It wouldn't be worth it to build and install them for $4,000.00 and net around $2,400.00, no?

[wcsg]

That sounds about right, 7k-8k plus tax & permits. Or make it electric and go for the 10-12k

[signtist]

Mark, I would take (16 hrs)- 2 days (easy days) to make and install. $2400.00 profit for 2 days work is easy money. Plus I would get other jobs done in those 2 days too. I would spray the paint with a HVLP spray gun and roll the raised parts with a 3" roller, real fast.
I would have quoted something like $3990. I don't do permits, thats their problem. Life's too short. Have fun & let us know what happens.
John

[jamesgilliam]

Mark, At the $6900.00 price tag you could be a little high. I have done a few signs now and would probably come in around $5500.00 for both. I do know the feeling when someone tries to get your price down. Three signs I am installing next week the company tried the same thing, "do we get a discount if we are order three at once?" I pointed out to them that the same amount of work went into each one, but managed to show them a discount on paper by raising the material cost by 50%. For a simple 4'x8' sign, two color, custom welded aluminum frame, installed I normally get around $4500.00, and have about $900.00 in material costs. The first signs I did for them, a 4'x8' and a 20"x8' on the same frame, they took a while before they gave me the job. After it was in the ground I ask them point blank what the next higher bid was, and it was about $1500 over mine. I knew they would send the design out to other shops for bids, and I knew I would get the job because I could do it under anyone else's price. Now I have the order for three more, and have all their sign business. They even help with the install with manpower, lifts to position the sign, etc... My thinking is if I can sell 10 signs and make 35K I am better off than selling 5 and making 27K. With this said I am sure I will have differing opinions, but I am a one man shop, and only take jobs I want to work on. Being self-unemployed, (wife retired and I quit my job), I feel very blessed to be able to do only what I want to do. I have spent the last eighteen months setting up shop at our new place and for the next year or so, I will be building our house next to the shop.

[tuck]

Yo John, I will be spraying the backgrounds for sure! lol!

16 hrs. and 2 easy days + installs??? Heck, it's gonna take me most of a whole day just to round up all of the materials. Nobody delivers to my neck of the woods!

I like your thinking though. I have often sold jobs at below my competition because I know how easy something like this can be if you know what you're doing and my overhead is as low as low can get. One man shop, own the shop, no employees, everything is paid for. The price I gave them is around some mysterious "national going rate" and I may well lose it because of that, but I want to see what happens and I will keep it posted.

2 easy days? Man, I can't make paint dry that fast! Thanks for your input, John. That's really what this thread is about.

[jamesgilliam]

John, You are right about spraying the base color, but a 3" roller? I have started using a 1" foam brush and it works great.

Mark, I see another $50 in your costs you could either make or discount. I also use Duna, and Porter Paint, but I don't prime the signs, it doesn't need it with the Duna.

[tuck]

James, you are correct, sir. Duna does not need priming but the cedar does. Maybe not 2 gallons worth, for sure, but I still like a "cushion" and try to have at least $100.00 worth of cushion on jobs like this.

I use foam rollers for top-coating.

I'm with you, James. I feel blessed to be able to do only what I want to do. If I lose this job, it's on to the next and lesson learned: "You can't get those kind of prices around here!" LOL!

[joe]

Mark,

Here's the way I'd approach this work.

All of the above suggestions have merrits. Folks like us, who've been at this work for some time, have our tried and proven favorite materials and techniques. With my usual way of doing post & panel the work moves right along. For others it might be a nightmare.

Here goes:

I'd do three proposals concepts at different price structures with the little @ copywrite bug on each. First is a line drawing with lots of shape and routing techniques, Neat-O fonts. This sketch is made to "Knock Their Socks Off" at $150.00 a square foot.

Second proposal has less shape and the only router work is applied pieces on some kind of textured surface. Like Sculpt Nouveau on OSB.
$125.00 per square foot.

Last is an all rectangular shape with applied panels and routed raised routed letters. $100 a square foot.

None of the above would use HDU as the substrate. It's expensive, floppy at legnth with out significant support, and finaly doesn't like those little screws to hold on name panels.

I'd probably us HD0 for all backgrounds. If that isn't available OSB or MDO. You gotta be choosey with MDO since is can be a poor grade.

One option for the imitation gold is brushed anodized aluminum. It routs like a dream. Name changes are a snap on this hard surface. They can be done on site.

Loosing clients. I ALLWAYS give my prospective client a square foot cost somewhere along the end of our first meeting. It goes something like this.
"The cost of these signs are based on a square foot price. They cost between $100 to $150 a square foot. Your sign will come in at approx. xxxx"

Now your Antenna's should go up: If they even act like they aren't comfortable, or want to see some sketches it's time to apply the closure technique. "I'd love to design a up a few concepts for us to work with. To get started we have a little cheeepiiie up front design fee of $50.00 or bla bla something". This will apply to your final order. It's also good for your sign permit applications in case we don't get the job.

Last, you can't want too much. That flaw telegraphs. You'll quickly find yourself on the defense.

Good luck to everyone.

Joe

Once you receive any deposit, the sale is much closer to closure.

[tuck]

John (and all),

When I stated above that "I could come down $300.00 and still do very well", that was a typo that I didn't catch. Read: " Come down $3000.00 and still do very well." I couldn't get it done as fast as John in my small shop with my old Bot (John must have an Alpha! lol) but I could net $2,400.00 in about 5 lazy days including installs, no problem, and $2,400.00 for a weeks "work" is dang good money in my book.

We'll see what happens. I'll be shocked if I don't have to come down substantially with my price to get the work. They seemed to like me and they loved the designs, but that and 50 cents will buy me a cup of coffee. This is an experiment in pricing and everyone is welcome to give their 2 cents. I'm kinda surprised some of the old pro's (Joe Crumely, Raymond Chapman, etc.), haven't weighed in yet.

Edit to say: THERE'S JOE! We bumped heads posting my friend.

Sage advice, as usual.
If they want to beat me up too much on the routed HDU, I want to show them how I can do it all out of Polymetal (with MDO backers) for less money and it will be beautiful indeed. I can get the Poly in dark green marble (background) and brushed gold (copy and name plates w/ vinyl copy for those) and THAT will indeed go very quickly. I would actually prefer to do it that way as I REALLY hate to paint!(lol)

[jben007]

Here's a relevant thought ...I get cabinet maker magazine, a free publication because the huge amount of advertisers and once a year the spec out a kitchen or a fancy built in unit and companies large and small from all over the country submit bids ,broken down into material and labor.For example they might show a simple "L" layout and and when the bids come in they will range from 4,500 to 25,0000 roughly and of course the discussion is why does the price differ so much ? And there are several reason's ...the Area you are located in and what type of operation you have, as one post said his wife is retired and he quit his Job and probably is set up on his on place in a little building or garage, basement.Which is fine ,but he should always(if he want to) be able to low bid when compared to a shop paying premium rental space with employees and the whole nine yards and there are other reasons as well but I won't get into those. I usually glance at them and do a quick bid and mine ends up about in the middle price range. I to started in a basement,but since expanded into a larger existing steel building which was just a shell, but that was 27 years ago,I'm still on my own property and overhead is about as low as you can get,But over the years the business grew where I added CNC,Woodmizer sawmill,drykilns and so on.So I'm able to tackle bigger jobs and still usually be the low man but not always I don't try to be.But I have a friend that comes in and we burn the midnight oil if need be to get the job done on time and that's what keeps them coming back.
I think every one comes up with their pricing policy based on many factors and their different situations so you will see a pretty big price difference from the east coast all the way through the heartland and into California, which I believe just on it's own has the world's second largest GNP .Second only to the USA.Just a thought. Everyone has a different way they approach life.If If we were all the same it would be boring...lol
Ben

[joe]

Mark,

It's way past you youngsters bedtime! Put on your sockey PJ and dream away.

Us old geezers are just getting a second wind. I'm sure Chapman had his napppie after dinner and is probably routing up a storm while we speak.

[tuck]

Haha Joe, you're right! Time fer us kiddies to hit the sack!


For those that don't know about "Polymetal", it's also called "DiBond". Check this out, it's WONDERFUL stuff, bullet proof, cuts like butter, relatively inexpensive and makes beautiful signs if'n you know what you're doing with it: (and ya ain't gotta PAINT it!)

http://www.alumapanel.com/products.cfm?step=1&lines_ID=292

[jben007]

Mark, How do you use this "polymetal" ,looks like cools stuff, Do you route through it or use is as a back drop for lettering that may be painted or something.Sorry for the dumb questions, but that's how I learned to do Millwork.
Thanks
Ben

[tuck]

Ben, in this instance I would use (cut), the dark green faux marble for the background substrate. I would then cut the brushed gold for the copy (letters) and name plates, which would end up with black vinyl copy for the doctor's names. After the brushed gold is cut, you take the "negative" or the "skeleton" (what's left over of the brushed gold sheet), and lay that on your background substrate (the dark green poly), and VIOLA, there's your template to glue down your letters and name plaques! Using 3M marine grade adhesive and being careful that no adhesive "presses out", you adhere your boarder, letters, etc. to the substrate, let the adhesive set up overnight and you're done, except in this case you'd need to glue the signs to "backer boards" like MDO plywood, but you'd have to do that with routed HDU signs as well. I'd do that with Gorilla glue. Sets fast, easy to use for large surfaces.

Here's the only thing: when I rout 1 1/2" HDU foam, I rout down 1/2". This gives "depth" to the letters/graphics etc., and some folks think they gotta have that. Polymetal is only 3mm thick in custom colors like marble and metal, so your letters are only gonna stand off the substrate 3mm (about 1/8"). I say "so what?". At 25 ft. from the street and at 45 mph, who cares or notices? The Poly comes with factory baked-on enamel paint, UV treated, you just can't beat it for MANY applications in sign making. And did I mention the fact that YA AIN'T GOTTA PAINT IT?

[khaos]

Joe C, That is a tremendous post. I think that makes good sense from a business perspective. As a software developer I use a similar approach. Your post in this thread should be in the FAQ! It is very pertinent to this industry.

Thanks from all the lurkers,

[jben007]

I can appreciate the no paint,Spent many and hour panting and sometimes putting a glaze for that "aged" look on painted cabinets whether it be MDF or solid or a combo of solid wood stile and rails and MDF panel.And they have to be perfect because the customer has their face in them every morning if it's a kitchen.Ten usually shooting 1 coat of clear after after every little blemish is filled primed and painted ..just to keep it from coining as they call it...a little pencil line mark that a ring will make on conversion varnish it the metal hits the paint, if there is not a coat of clear on the very last coat.A high quality paint cabinet is the most labor intensive to make, you save a little bit time not have to be particular about the Tones of th wood,but does not make up for the painting time,
Thanks for the info!

[benchmench]

This is a great discussion along the same lines as the CabinetMaker Magazine article Ben refers to.

The Cabinet Makers Association (http://www.cabinetmakers.org) has a seminar on pricing but much of it could apply to any fabrication business.

Here are some relevant take-away points:

-- "Just because you have a machine that can do things faster and cheaper doesn't mean you should lower your price." You probably didn't buy that expensive machine to give more of your profit to the customer.

-- "If you are winning more than 3 out of 10 bids, your price may be too low." May have to adjust for your business but you get the idea.

-- "Anything you can do to reduce labor and waste, do it." Automation is usually the key here but things like forklifts or vacuum lifts will pay for themselves.

-- And my favorite..."You are a professional and should be paid like one."

When a customer balks at price, it only means their perceived value doesn't equal or exceed what they have to pay. Rather than reduce price, focus on the value side of the equation by putting it in terms of what is important to them. How many times have you heard one of the greatest Value Statements of all time:

"You don't pay more, you just get more..."

When value equals price, in the customer's mind, you have a winner.

[jben007]

Very well put and I agree...one of the first things I do if a customer balks at the price .....is start taking things away or scaling back on the pricey additions the customer wanted, and almost never do I drop my price .It tends to make the customer think you had extra $$$$$ added in or that I'm gouging them to start with. Oh....and my favorite one also is " I'm a professional and I want to get paid like one" .
Thanks,
Ben

[jamesgilliam]

James, You are right with not dropping the price. The customer will, 9 times out of 10, try to get you even lower. When I quote a job, it final. I have lost a few jobs, mainly because I am the only one in the area I live that does carved signs. I had to bid on a install only job two weeks ago. They wanted to hang 2 8'x8' signs back to back on 4x4 posts. When I gave her the price she was shocked, so I explained what needed to happen. Four foot in the ground, cement in, set overnight, and then hang with stainless fasteners. Her boss thought you could just drop the posts in the ground two feet, nail the signs on and that was it. So he sent one of the "company" crews to do it. Now it is leaning at about a 30 degree angle, and she wants me to 'fix it for them" and "will I do it for the same price?". She got approval for the first quote now, but since I have to deal with their mess of an installation the price has risen, and I told her why. I am still waiting to hear back from her.

[joe]

The three stage priceing technique is very affective. That way the client doesn't feel it's a take it or leave situation.

We all work different!

[tuck]

Joe,

The three stage technique is a great idea. Now, my designs are nothing too fancy. I designed them to mark spots and do a job, and I think they would do that effectively as do the customers. They should be $100.00 a sq. ft. based on your pricing techniques, and a total of 48 sq. ft. = $4,800.00. I'm fine with that. However, one thing that drove up the price of material estimation for this proposal is the cost of cedar post and lumber. I REFUSE to use pressure treated pine for this job. It's nasty lumber meant to build decks with, not nice signs. It's full of knots, doesn't take paint well when it's fresh and wet, weighs a ton, and even 6x6's can start to warp when they eventually dry out. I've seen it happen. A 6x6x8' p.t. post at Home Depot is $15.00. A 6x6x8' smooth sawn cedar post from my local supplier is $80.00.

Sooo, I have about $360.00 for cedar post and lumber priced. Then I gotta make something out of them, as in turn them into pretty supports. The bottom "wraps" (at the bottom of the post), is a considerable amount of table saw and miter saw work totaling 16 pieces (for both signs), that have to be cut, glued and screwed together, puttied, sanded, primed and painted. I also want to round-over all of the hard edges with a hand router and round-over bit.

I think all of that work is worth at least $500.00 on top of the cost of the cedar ($360.00), so I'm looking at $860.00 for the cedar post and wraps, $4,800 for the signs themselves and let's say $300.00 for installs. Does $5,960 total sound about right Joe?

To all of you reading this thread, I'm asking Joe Crumley specifically because he is the world's oldest and most experienced sign maker. Word is that he made the first sign ever but Moses gave credit for it to someone else! LOL!

[joe]

My good friend Mark,

Posts are an expense. I've made them an intrigal part of my ground sign. I feel, all too many times, sign artists spend way too much time on making the sign and not enough on the structure. Even a mediocre sign, set between beautiful posts will look much better.

I personally use those CHEAP wet green treated posts for most signs. As you say, they do need some special consideration however. My first reason, they won't rot off in the ground and will last a long, long time. Many times I had to replace cedar posts because they will absolutely rot off in a hole where I work, and lawn movers and weed eaters chew them up at the base. Expensive also.

I do some shaping with a hand router. This is quick and can take on a handsome appearance. My second and favorite technique is to wrap them with 1/2" sheet materials. I most often use MDO, or Extira. Fluted Extira is my favorite. I've been considering a wood grain concrete siding materials which I've been eye balling at Lowes. It's cheap.

Covered 4"X4" post increases in size and value.

Warping: Mark's correct about this. This lumber is made from the very center of the tree which makes warping more likely as it dries out. Be sure to check your posts from their end. Make sure you get one with dead center growth rings. That way the natural tension within the wood is more equal and doesn't tend to warp so much.

Screwing an exterior cover around the outsides seems to solve the warping problem. I use good glue also.


5950

Let me state again: Even when using inexpensive materials, covering posts can be expensive. I always attach a kick plate at the bottoms. This is usually PVC like Centra. This protects against weed eaters.


5951

Another technique is texturing. I prime the boards with then apply one of many good textures. One fool proof test material is from Presision Board. That's their Texture Coating. This stuff wont' turn loose and doesn't show cracks or checks since is very flexable. They also have a two part hardcoat as hard as concrete. We use their Crack Filler mostly. Trowel it on, and stipple with a big brush. Then sand of to a smooth texture.

Nothing wrong in using steel either.


5952




I really like the three level pricing. With a few well chosen photo's showing the difference in cost structure the customer can see better what's he's getting. My experence is if you can get their mouth watering, they will opt for your most expensive signs.

5953
5954

[tuck]

Thanks Joe. One thing I forgot to mention is that when I use cedar post, I trowel on a thick coat of asphalt based roofing tar on the bottom 2 to 3 ft. of the post that goes in the ground. I also have a large container of granulated termicide that I acquired some years back, and I'll sprinkle some of that in the holes before I plant the post. Those steps will stop the rot and bug attacks.

To me, the cost of the cedar is worth it in this instance, but I certainly could get the same look with the p.t. pine, as much as I hate that stuff. If my customers keep fussing over price, that's one option to lower it and I'll explain that to them. You know, I read on a website recently that you should never paint p.t. lumber. Actually, here it is: http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infxtra/infpre.html

I don't think that's ever stopped anyone, myself included, but I have seen paint fail on fresh p.t. lumber. Another website suggest that you let it dry out for 90 days prior to painting, but who has time for that?

As far as wrapping p.t. post, I've done that many times but you have to agree, it's more work. If I can sell the customer on the cedar then I have nice, smooth, clear (knot-free) and light weight post that my old bones can handle! ;-)

[benchmench]

Joe, you are a great example of value before price. Your method creates desire then allows the customer to pick the price level they are comfortable with. Very nice!

[wendell]

5955
What do you guys thing this sort of work is worth? It's not Joe's work but okay for a park. Yes I painted the treated posts but it was a free.