Help me price this sign

[cnc_works]

I've been asked to recreate this sign or close to it from scratch in about 18" x 24" size. It appears to be very nicely done with full 3D carving and gold leaf.


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The customer is asking if I could do it for $300 but given the 3D stuff and gold leaf my first reaction would be more like double.

I'm thinking that a compromise in creating a simpler 3D frog/leaves that could be engraved in the substrate would bring it nearer possible.

Anybody got any pricing guidelines for the fancy stuff?

Donn

[dakers]

Donn, i would hop away at $300.00 or even $600. if they are going to want exactly the same sign as you posted here with the same quality. If they had 3d files that would help but this i am sure was not done totally on the cnc.

this was done by the company below.
spring valley signs

http://www.springvalleysigns.com/wildanimal/mcKelvies.html

i think they are among the best in the world at what they do. they are not economical. they do alot of hand carving.

i would email them and ask them what signs like this cost. seems like it would have to be near $400. per sq ft plus or minus $100. per sq. ft.

Spring Valley Signs produces stuff i am not capable of even dreaming about. Even the designs is amazing. thanks for posting this.

[joe]

Donna,

I admire you for attempting this kind of sign. I'm sure you will do well however, it's not really a bigners project. I believe this may have done by Noella Cotrell from Sign-It-Signs. She's a fine artist and good friend. Some of this can not be done with a router but lots of it is hand work.It's in the $1,200 range.
www.farmsigns.com (http://www.farmsigns.com)

I'd suggest giving it a try. You'll learn a lot.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[rej]

donn,
if you can do this kind of work, please come and teach my sign class in june.
this is on the same level as dan swatzky

[joe]

Robert you certainly have out attention about your "Sign Class."

Please post more information about that and lets see some of your sign work. Do you have a website?

[cnc_works]

Well, thanks for all the responses, especially giving me the source of the picture. I figured it would be expensive, but not to the degree mentioned.

I do think that I could do this work, or as close to it as you can on a CNC (no handcarving for me), but probably not profitably. It's a moot point, though, because he is unlikely to accept the real costs involved.

I'll simplify it down to the point where there is no applied 3d/carving work and no gold leaf.

What do you guys think about a similar sign with a much simpler 3d frog/leaves engraved into the sign and no gold leaf for his price? Or maybe closer to $400?

Donn

[rb99]

Thats a lot of work for 1200 bucks...

RIB

[joe]

Richard,

One of my check points when pricing is based on time. With small sign, like this, material costs are minimal so it gets down to how much time it will take.

Our daily shop charge is $1000. a day. It's doubtful we could shorten up the process. But I'm doubtful I could get it out any faster, no matter the price. One of the advantages with this porject, the illustration has been provided.

I have a simular project for a B&B coming up. That one is a single sided oval with a band of roses along the bottom. It's priced at $1,800 and carved from Ponderosa Pine.

Here's a sign from on of my favorite artists Phil VanderKraats. Check out his website, www.signsbyvan.com (http://www.signsbyvan.com)


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[cartar929]

That is an awesome sign. What did you have to do to get that round over effect on the border?

[cnc_works]

Well, I went out on a hook and did a simulation of what I would do for the guy for $300. Found a local guy who would do the artsy painting for a good price and combined some existing 3D clipart I already had. He came back wanting the frogs to smile. Oh, well...

[mick40]

Someone like that will never be happy with what you give them. My question is, does he know, that you know, how much he paid to have the original sign cut? Guess it's irrelevant I just get upset with people who don't want to pay a fair price.

Just my .02 cents.

Mick

[tgm]

These are the kind of customers that you don't need. Too many of them and you will be out of business. It's amazing to me that people try to put a price on YOUR work and want you to do it for that. Have these same people go to Lowes or their nearest car dealer and try to tell them what you are going to pay for an item or a car.

Try going to your local restaurant and telling them what you are going to pay for a meal!

After you presented them with an economical alternative, now they want the frogs to smile. You gotta love a stupid customer!

My .02, get rid of him. It's not your responsibility to meet what he thinks it can be done for. He's dreaming..........and your about to lose money.

Good Luck,

Tom in PA

[bleeth]

He just gave you a request for a closer Donn!!
Your reply is "OK-I'll do this sign, add a carved in smile line, and you, of course, must pay for this type of work in advance". Watch him pony up or get out of your life forever.

[cabnet636]

don do you have aspire? i have the frog file for you!

email is mcgrew 636 at msn dot com

[widgetworks_unlimited]

Since I'm not a sign maker, I didn't want to chime in with a price earlier - but I agree with the others, I'd have guessed the paint job alone was more than $300.

When I read your first post, my gut told me this was an impossible sale. The quality of the sign is top notch, which can't be done on the cheap.

I doubt many people can appreciate that level of quality. Most are probably pricing this in their head, based on it's size and it's purpose/use (I'm assuming it's going outside a residence.) I don't know anyone with a $300 sign (or $1200 sign) hanging outside their house.

[cnc_works]

Yeah, Dave, we were kind of already at that point. He stated a lid of $300, then asked for extra after my proposal. I gave up and told him "no smiling frogs".

James, thanks for thinking of me, but no Aspire. Can you do an STL out in Aspire?

Russ, interestingly, in later conversations my customer says he was quoted $600 for the sign in question. In that case, I'm guessing that the ivy and frogs may be a casting, not carving.

Still, I'm not too unhappy he turned down my offer.

Donn

[tgm]

He was quoted $600 for the sign and then asks you to do it for $300. You gotta luv 'em!!!

Good Luck,

Tom in PA

[navigator7]

Someone like that will never be happy with what you give them. My question is, does he know, that you know, how much he paid to have the original sign cut? Guess it's irrelevant I just get upset with people who don't want to pay a fair price.

Just my .02 cents.

Mick

Mick...I think perhaps you are missing sales opportunities.
Your emotion is costing you money.
Is the customer an enemy? Or.....are they like a trout rising to a dry fly.
Presentation will entice a trout to a dry fly and also put food on your table.
People will pay a "fair price" when they are 'sold'.
When they are not "sold" they keep looking until they run into a salesman.
Imagine ... if within a 100 mile radius existed 10 shopbotters who would eagerly work for less than the last guy the customer talked to?
The customer is going to shop until he finds the lowest price or.....he finds a salesman who realizes the key to prosperity is slowing down the customer, overcoming the customer objections and satisfying a need with a product.

Talking price, IMHO, is a fools game. If you use price to promote your wares, you are done with the first words. You have nothing else to sell. You are an hourly employee allowing your boss to work you 80 hours a week and pay you for 10.

A customer must be controlled.
Customer: "How much for this?"
The customer is afraid and shopping price when he asks this question.
He should be shopping value. Answering a customer's question with a price is like putting a gun to your head. You are dead meat. The customer is in control. Not good.

You must get them telling you their vision. Find out what the ultimate goal is. Inspire them to dream. Ask questions to get more involved with their dream. Why are they in your shop? If you go through all these steps and the customer pulls out a quote that reveals his desire to get something for nothing...simply pull out the Take Away Sale.

I really enjoy the negative or take away sale.
Part of being a business man is knowing who to work for and who not to work for. It's also controlling the sale. If a person walks into your shop and leaves for another shop...they weren't sold. You should be writing orders when customers leave your shop or loading up their trunk with stuff.
Alas....not every customer is going to respond to the best salesman.
I default to humor when a sale goes bad.
Pass a customer a rattle can of spray paint and tell him 'it's on the house'!
You might suggest You have wasted the customer's time.
Take the heat for not living up to their expectations but deny service.

Difficult customers are part of the biz. The take away sale works great on these types because when you say no....that is the trigger.

I've had customers that don't want to pay for 90 days, refuse to pay travel, refuse to pay for any expenses that are not part of my service. I use the McDonalds Take Away Sale.
"Look, I only want as much respect as you receive from McDonalds!"
It's always worked! ;-)
I mostly get a laugh at the other end of the phone when they realize I'm on to them.
But always expect to take an order like the person at McDonalds!
Do you get your food before you pay at McDonalds?
How many times have you successfully negotiated a cheaper burger?

Don't allow your customers to beat you up?

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9203&stc=1&d=1268587280

[mitch_prest]

Hey Joe

had a look at that site you posted.. farmsigns... and its funny what a tiny world it is sometimes... the sign on the top of the page in chemainus... I built their barn...

mitch

[joe]

Good for you Mitch. Noella is such a talent.


Whew!

Man of man, this topic has worn me smooth out.

[chiloquinruss]

In all of my past business lives I have learned that:
1. Have a set of rules you run your business by.
2. Don't deviate from rule number 1.
EVERY time I made a change to either a price or procedure or whatever for a customer it ALWAYS came back to bite me! :) See rule number 1. :) Russ

[dakers]

Chuck, i never heard of this "take away sale technique" you mentioned so i googled it and this is one of the things i found about it.
is this what you mean?






Before Sue began answering every objection Phil had, she could have simply said: "You know, you mentioned that ABC Competition has more colors, a better price and they were already here this morning. So I'm confused. Why didn't you order from them? I mean, we can't do all of that."
For the take-away technique to work, you must honestly be prepared to lose the sale and walk out the door without looking back. If you're not able to do this, the technique could backfire right in your face. But if you're 100 percent committed to making it work, then this technique is incredibly compelling when it comes to eliminating objections. Your task is simply to mirror back what your prospect is saying to you.
For example, when they tell you how great and wonderful your competitor is, reply with: "So you ordered from them." Don't speak until you get a response. If they did already order, it probably really is over for you. But if not, then you deserve to know the reasons why. And while your prospect is telling you why, you're learning what you need to do to get his business

[myxpykalix]

Learning to deal with customers is a college course in itelf. I started out with two used car lots when i was 21, then at 25 I got into retail video with stores and video production then into real estate. Each one of them needed a fair amount of dealing with the public and customers. The one thing i learned to do, especialy with real estate is to remain dispassionate in my negotiations. If you go in fawning over a house the seller knows he can ask his price. I could take it or leave it, didn't matter. I usually get it at my price.

Now when customers want to set the price for work from me I usually let them know up front that these are set prices that i have no control over (especially material costs) and this is what it is going to cost to get this done.

There is a difference between a "take it or leave it" attitude and "I'll work with you the best i can but some costs are beyond my control".
I think some might agree with this next statement that the ones you give the best price to, complain the most, and the ones who pay the most complain the least.

[chiloquinruss]

True story, my partner Dick had a customer tell him to "sharpen the pencil" when working on a quote. Dick worked on the estimate for a couple of hours, it came to $5000. When completed the customer came by to get the quote. The customer took a quick look and then asked Dick "is this the best you can do?" Dick took a minute without saying anything he then took the quote and drew a line through the $5000 and wrote very big across the page $6000. The customer left. Dick has been one of my best friends ever since! :) Russ

[GlenP]

Mornin Folks. Pricing is hard and dealing with some customers is hard as well. Never lower your price without taking something away from the project. If you do the customer gets the feeling you were overcharging them and they caught you trying to rip them off. It is hard in these difficult times but giving deals, discounts and low prices will haunt you big time. I ALWAYS have my quote worksheet ready to justify my price if I need to. For me showing a customer how I got the price usually puts there mind to ease. I let them know that I do not and cannot work for lower than this shop rate. I have only had to once run through the numbers and get right down to what my overhead costs are and what "hopefully" is left to pay me and the customer had no idea it cost me so much to run my business. He also said "thats all you pay yourself, I make almost twice that". That was enough said and he is know a very good repeat customer and great word of mouth advertiser for me. I can never understand why as carpenters and woodworkers we are at the bottom of the trade foodchain (pay). Plumber, heating, electricians all get more....alot more here and people pay it but when it is woodworker they try to beat us down. I have learned that "**** attracts flies". **** being your low prices. If you go low you probably will get the work but and the end of the day you will only attract more cheap customers (****) and work for peanuts and always wonder why you don't make more. Man I could go on forever on this topic. Price the sign were you need to be. If I were you go ahead and do this sign even if it is just to hang in the shop. Challenge yourself to try it and see how it goes. If you are like me you will look back at work you did years ago and be your worst critique. Good Luck.:)