GOLD

[woodworx]

Tested out the brass Scupt Nouveau the other day on a 3D piece that has been sitting around since I first got the bot a year ago. Turned out alright, but I am sure with a bit of refinement I can make it look nicer. The customer wants a bright gold 3D relief of some Marine thing. I don't know what it is but it has some swords and a crest type center. Lots of detail, so I want to make sure I can polish the piece after I apply the "C" coating. The also sent some gold lacquer, which I was relying on heavily to make the piece shine. After I was done I realized I should have done a better build up with the "C" before the final coats of the lacquer. Since there is a lot of detail I want to make sure that I can get in all the nooks and crannies to make the whole piece look like a million bucks. Any suggestions? JR

[rb99]

Lets see it!

RB

[joe]

Try real GOLD. No polishing necessary.

[rcnewcomb]

quote:The customer wants a bright gold 3D relief
quote:Try real GOLD. No polishing necessary.
I've gotta agree with Joe. The Sculpt Nouveau will look OK, but real gold will be head and shoulders better. (Slight smile vs. jaw drop) Is the customer willing to pay for real gold?

[joewino]

There is a saying among sign painters (especially the old ones like Crumley)....

"Gold is gold and paint ain't."

By the time you spend filling and sanding and painting and glazing and then doing it all again you could have put down real gold and it would not have cost any more.

You can't make something cheap look like a million bucks.

[woodworx]

where do I get gold? Is it just a micro thin piece? Can I get it at a craft store or somewhere local? Never heard of applying actual gold, so where do I start? Can I do it in silver too?

[Gary Campbell]

Justin..
Google.. "Gold Leaf"
Gary

[joe]

Justin,

www.letterheadsignsupply.com (http://www.letterheadsignsupply.com)
www.seppleaf.com (http://www.seppleaf.com)

You could probably use some assistance with this process. It's easy once you know the steps. Let me know if I can be of assistance.

Woops, Dr. Chapman was almost correct. My X, with the help of a few beauty aids, did it all the time.

Joe

[Call-Tech]

I am in south eastern Michigan. I have been wanting to try my hand at gold leaf for many years. Does anyone know of upcoming tradeshow, letterhead meet etc. in my area, where I could get some talk time with people who know gold leaf? I have read many books and articles on gold leaf and everyone seems to agree that even a few minutes of hands on with someone who knows is time well spent. I would love to see some demonstrations of gold application.

-Fred

[dakers]

6103

You can find some instructions on youtube typing in gold leaf. however some are for interior usage.
i have attached a photo of gold leaf job we did using approx. 36'' signfoam letters. Seems like preparation is everything. applying the gold was easy. i do like the slow dry seize but it is personal preference for everyone. The gold does show every imperfection in the undercoat so preparation to have a smooth non porous background seems important. we never clear coat gold unless on vehicles but now we use gold leaf vinyl. I think the main thing is customer expectations. I have had more problems with expectations than anything else. I try to let them know what to expect. Some have seen gold leaf on glass doors and think that is what they are getting, etc. good luck

[Call-Tech]

I have been searching for events coming up this year related to Gold Leaf. I am unsure of how to search as terms like Letterhead brings up mostly pinsripping and painting. Gilding tends to bring up stores selling gold leaf or museum type info. Can someone help me with the terminology that would let me locate upcoming events related to Gilding or Gold leaf. I've seen photos before of these events where lots of people get together and show off their skills. Every industry has their tradeshows or meets, I can't find the ones related to Gold leaf.

-Fred

[bleeth]

Fred: When using the search engines for something like that it helps if you are more specific in your request. Just adding the words "How to" to gild brought up a bunch of on line lessons.
That being said, once you have a bit of elementary knowledge I would take Joe up on his offer above. He was sincere and does great work. (Even though he is getting a bit crotchity in his old age)

[joewino]

"(Even though he is getting a bit crotchity in his old age)"

Are you trying to tell me that there was a time when he wasn't grouchy?

Fred, even though he's old and groucy, you would learn a ton from this sign master.

There is a Letterhead gathering at Fred's Sign Shop in Oklahoma City during March 13-15. You will find some of the finest sign artists in the nation there during that weekend. It would be a tremendous time for you to learn all about gold.

Let me know if you are interested and I'll relay the information to you. I'll be there and would be glad to help in any way I can.

There is also a gathering of artists in California in February, but they mainly deal in glass gold.

Check out www.handletteringforum.com (http://www.handletteringforum.com) for information on just about any kind of gold application you would want to know. You will be awed and amazed.

[dakers]

Thanks Raymond, did not know that existed. I see Mike Jackson is one of the moderators too. He has been generous in sharing like you have.
I have been working in signshops handlettering since 1968 with 2 years out for the army and i have not had one day where i did not love it.
I have alot of respect for you Raymond as i have learned so much from you that my mind cant store it all. thanks for sharing.

[Call-Tech]

This forum has helped me alot and I welcome the knowledge of Joe and others here. I would just really like to see some gold be applied in person.

Raymond,
As much as I would love to go, I do not think I would have the time or money to go that far from home. I was hoping for something in Michigan. If not then Indiana or Ohio.

I got an email from someone named Yosemite Sam who is in charge of a letterhead meet wrapped around the detroit autorama. I'm not sure of the date. Is there much gilding taking place at a letterhead meet? "Letterhead" seems to be more sign painting than gilding. not to say that gilding is not involved. Has anyone here attended one of these?

PS. Would imitation gold leaf be good to use while learning? It is about 1/2 the price. I'm sure it is not as nice as real gold, but would it be good for practice? Is the application about the same?

-Fred

[joewino]

Fred - while most Letterhead gatherings are about signs in general, there is always someone there who has a basic knowledge of surface gilding, since it is not all that difficult.

Imitation gold is thicker than the genuine 23k leaf and you could get a general feel for the product, but nothing like working with the real thing. Consider the cost a part of the learning tuition. If you took a course at your local community college you would pay for books, tuition and supplies. It's an investment...not a cost.

You could also learn like I did - buy the book "Gold Leaf Techniques" and study it from cover to cover. Original author was Raymond LeBlanc and it has been revised several times by Kent Smith.

ISBN: 911380-50-7 Available through ST Publications and SignCraft Magazine.

The hand lettering forum site also has a list of available supply sources.

You can check The Letterville Bullboard for a list of Letterhead meets that may be near you.

[Call-Tech]

I think I read that book a few years ago, I'll track it down again. I guess I just wanted to see it done just once before I tried it myself.

My brain kind of works like this:


6104

[joe]

In the mean time.

I've found an imitation gold, water based, gold paint made by Modern Masters that's amazing. It's "Iridescent Gold" ME 194.

With a light application of Pitch to darken the recesses, it's a close match for real gold. The best I've found

www.modernmasters.com (http://www.modernmasters.com)

[myxpykalix]

Fred,
I have this hanging in my office. I guess great minds do think alike....right?

6105

[Call-Tech]

Yes they do, and I believe that is why we are ALL on THIS forum.

[paul_z]

Joe,

Thanks for the tip on the paint. I bought a quart and we'll see how it goes.

Paul Z

[joe]

Paul,

Yeah!
To get the most out of the MM's Irredescent Gold, it helps to paint over a very lightely textured, almost smooth, surface.

To give it even more spunk, a touch of gold mica on the surface will give it a subtle sparkle.

[woodworx]

great help everyone. Still waiting on customer approval, but gold leaf is going to work much better that the Sculpt Nouveau. From everything I have heard the gold is a timely, but not that difficult. I was told imitation gold will tarnish if it is not sprayed with a sealer.

[paul_z]

Joe,

When Joe speaks, I listen.

I tried the paint and it is the best looking gold paint I have found to date! Very easy to use and it cleans up with water. I paid $29/quart which I thought was very reasonable.

Joe, Have you used this outdoors?

Paul Z

[joe]

Paul,

Thanks for the complements.

To make this product really sparkle, I've been making a smooth texture to paint on. It's amazing how well this works. There are several ways to do this. I use an exterior paste, Crack Filler, made by Precision Board. But any exterior spackle should work. I stiple it on with a 2" disposable brush. When good and dry, sand off to a smooth texture. I like puting on two coats of MM Iredescent Gold.

It seems to be good outside. However, their products have only been on the market for a couple of years and I only have been using it for about six months. I think it will do well. Don't topcoat it.

[fmihm]

Joe -- Does your recommendation not to topcoat also apply to using Modern Masters MasterClear, their Protective Clear Topcoat?

They say, "We recommend using MasterClear on exterior applications or on interior applications that are in high traffic areas. MasterClear is formulated to maintain the metallic value of the Metallic Paint Collection. The use of other clear coats could result in the dulling of the finish."

They claim it is UV-protective and Water resistant.

[joe]

Frank,

The MM clear may be just the ticket. However I haven't seen any that has worked over the years. Most clear coats have done more harm than good. The main flaw is they turn yellow or peal. So I'm cautious with a recommendation.

Presenty I use only catalized automotive clear but I'm realatively sure it would lift water based paints. The automotive doesn't turn yellow or peal.

I can't seem to keep up with all the new products coming on the market.

I'd sure like to hear from someone who's tried it out to give us a heads up.

[toddmaci]

Joe,
Would you please recommend a supplier of gold mica dust? How would you apply that?

Thanks,

Todd

[joe]

Todd,

You can get a sample kit of Mica powders from WWW.letterheadsignsupply.com (http://WWW.letterheadsignsupply.com) I don't think it's listed on their website so, give them a call.

Their sample kit is more than you'll probably use but it has so many colors to choose from it's a good way to get started.

Mica is a natural earth product and is good outdoors. You've probably noticed the sparkles on your wifes face with fresh make-up. That's the material you'll be dealing with.

I personally don't know any artist using it, but I know there are some. I guess it's a trade secret. It's applied to surfaces that have tack. Like the feeling you get just applying gold. It will adhere to painted surface just before the paint is dry.

The process is to sprinkle a very small amount on paper. Very Very small amount. With a brush known as a mop, pick up a little mica powder and dab it on the surface. You could, if brave, sneak into your wifes make-up drawer to see if she has an extra facial brush. You know the big soft one. Your on your own with that.

I suggest you use a mica color that's almost identical to your paint color. It isn't good for large area's because getting it down even is difficult. However on letters it's very attractive. Sure looks good in the well of V carved letters.

[toddmaci]

Thanks Joe.

Todd

[joewino]

Thanks for the information, Joe. There are not many in our profession that have such a wide range of knowledge as Crumley does...and it's to his credit that he is willing to share.

I've learned something today. All this time I thought that the sparkle in Joe's face was just his personality.

[toych]

Modern Masters Pale Gold.
6106

[joe]

DT,

Good going.

MM has several gold paints. I'm not familiar with this one. It looks rather bronze. Is this that way it appears in real life?

I'm impressed with your skill at 3D routeing.

Joe

[toych]

Thank you Joe.
The credit should go to Vetric and Shopbot. They make thing so easy.
The paint is actually a little bit brighter than in the photo. I've never done gold leaf so I have nothing to compare it to. I imagine the gold is quite a bit richer looking.
I'll have to try that soon.

Darren.

[toddmaci]

Joe, I purchased the MM's Irredescent Gold. I am fairly disappointed in the results. I am painting v-carved letters in MDF. The letters were sealed with shellac then primed with kilz and the MM applied. It barely covered. Is this operator error(me) or is there a trick to good coverage?

Thanks,

Todd

[joe]

Todd,

It sound like the mixture hasn't been stired up very well. However you will probably need more coats. You will also notice an increase reflectivty by having texture to paint over. I apply my undercoat, which is yellow, with a stiff brush. I make sure it has considerable texture.

Before gilders apply 23k gold, it's advisable to have a good coat of yellow painted underneath.

If you are still having problems, let me know and I'll send you a sample I've done as a comparison.

[lstovall]

Joe,
I noticed when we were using it in your workshop, it did better if it was sorta dabbed on thick but not enough to run. I had to put on two thick coats on my sample letter. Of course it may be better to put on multiple thin coats I guess depending on the surface and use conditions.

[joe]

Marvi,

These products ar made with a clear base and looks best when put on thick. Thanks for reminder. I made a texture test last week using glass beads, spackle, and sand as undersoats for MM. The glass beads came out tops.

It's amazing when I do some kind of test, like this, is finds it's way in one of my sign somewhere down the road. The point is, it pays to play around every now and again.

[lstovall]

You're right Joe, nothing beats experimenting for finding out new and untried techniques. I still gotta get me some glass beads.

[joe]

MS,

There in the mail.

[lstovall]

Thanks Joe.

[wcsg]

You can always try the usual sign suppliers too like McLogan, N.Glantz, Montroy & Interstate.

[bcondon]

Fine Woodworking magazine (April 2009) just arrived and in the Masters Section has a multipage article on gilding. (pgs 92-96)

BOB