The REALITY of CNC Proliferation...

[tuck]

"Comptuter Numeric Control" technology ain't exactly new anymore, folks. In fact, it's rapidly becoming "old hat" as well as affordable by just about anyone that has a few thousand bucks and needs/wants one. (Especially a used one.) The prices for high perfomance machines keeps dropping (relative to the economy), as the demand for the technology stays on the rise. There is, of course, both bad and good in this. The "bad" is that everyone and their brother will have a CNC (flat-bed router system) machine soon enough. The "good" is that the demand for CNC services will continue to rise.

What does this mean? It means one thing...COMPETITION!!! If you were the first guy on your street with a CNC machine say 10, 5, or even 3 years ago, my money says that you ARE NOT NOW! Likely as not, if you are a CNC man from "way back when", you already know that you're NOT the only kid on the block anymore!

This is certainly not to infer that anyone that buys a CNC machine will be successful with it, no more than it is to say that anyone that has been in business for a good while will lose out to all of the newer folks that are "hungrier". I am simply trying to point out that, as time rolls on, we'd all do well to keep a sharp eye over our shoulders for what's coming up behind us, "competition-wise".

I, for one, can forsee the day soon when good CNC machines will be as affordable and plentiful as a top-notch vinyl plotter, or near to it. That's my 2 cents.

[btk]

Mark,

I think that in addition to the cost of machines coming down, I think that also a lack of CNC operators is also keeping adoption rates lower than they could be.
From my experience, most of the people that I speak to that have not yet invested in a CNC machine are less worried about the cost of the machine (as labor cost money too ) but more so concerned about who would program and operate the machine in an efficient consistent manor.
I therefore think that universal CNC adoption will really pickup as the next generation of computer fluent users come out of school who no longer know how to draft/layout by hand and are forced to use CNC.

Brian

[joewino]

My new ShopBot is still out there somewhere but at some point it will be shipped and I'll join the ranks of those that use this "new" technology.

Since I am in the sign business my experience only deals with that part of the economy. Twenty years ago new technology came upon the scene in the form of vinyl plotters. Some folks predicted the end of the signman since anyone could buy a machine and go into business. Here, 20 years later, some of that prediction has come true - anyone can buy a plotter and go into business, but there are still sign folks around who are a busy as ever, doing outstanding signage.

While it is true that our craft has changed, I believe the plotter just improved the way I do business. And I see my new ShopBot in the same way - it will improve how I do business.

What I sell is design, not technology. If my designs (and the craftmanship that produces those designs) are good, it doesn't make much difference how they are done, by hand or machine. My ShopBot can't think. That's my job.

Way back there when I started in the sign business you could get into the business by buying a can of paint, a brush, and picking up a free yard stick at the lumber yard. Doing that didn't make them a sign artist though. The success was not in the brush, it was (and still is) inside the head of the person.

New technology doesn't scare me - it allows me to do my job faster and better. There will always be those folks that produce junk, whether by hand or by technology. I can't stop them. But what I can do is produce the very best that I can, by whatever method is available and the rest will take care ot itself.

Yes, there are other CNC machines in my area, but they are not producing the quality of design that I can, hence, they are not competition.

End of sermon.

[bhalle]

Amen.

[mikejohn]

Raymond
I saw new technology take over my old business, Aerial Survey and mapping.
It took 15 years, though, before old timers like me were superceded! (I got out 3 years ago next month). The technology was there, but it was not automatic. The basics still needed to be in place. Today you need one guy in an organisation that really knows the score, to ensure that the computer side is being done correctly.
I left, I wasn't pushed, because, towards the end I didn't often get into an aircraft (unless the task was super complicated) but sat at a desk sorting out the headaches. The pay was great, but life wasn't as good as making rocking horses.

Simple signs will be made by computer literate Shopbot owners. I do it. But that doesnt make me a designer.
Great signs will always be in the hands of talented designers.
What is needed for CNC, along with design skills, is a full understanding of the software.
Put that all together and you wil give the young 'uns a run for their money.

However, ignore technology advances at your peril!

.............Mike

[jhicks]

Guess its all a matter of perspective so here's my 2 cents. We are blessed with a diverse group of clients ranging from single order to repeat purchases in a wide range of businesses, individuals, and markets. The excellent cabinet makers and some sign shops continually say "next year I am buying a CNC machine" To that I say; Why, when you have me?. The sign shops only have the occasional panel, letters or complete dimensional sign and their core competencies are more retail design, vinyl or ink focused.
Vinyl and printed sign shops are chasing that technology on new printers, flat beds, etc.

Cabinet makers chase new clients for high end work and outsource more every day. Many buy face frames, legs, turnings, counter tops and embelishments from outside sources already. Their core competencies tend to be in sales, design, assembly, finishing, and installation. They want to turn the orders into an invoices as rapidly as they can and rightly so. Same with retail sign shops, builders, and other businesses. We think thats where we fit!
As time marches on they discover that outsourcing is a GOOD thing for them and not a single one has purchased a CNC machine.
In fact they regularily ask me to move ours into their shop. (maybe someday if the synergy is right)
Once one recognizes they don't have the full time work to justify it, the space, personnel and learning curve to run on the occasion they might, they have determined they have better things to do with their people, time, and cash. Developing an in house capacity and competency for a small percentage of your in house demand just isn't a good/smart investment. This is why vertically integrated manufacturing has been abandoned in favor of specialization and outsourcing.
Outsourcing is GOOD because specialization is key to ones focus,investment,expertise,proficiency,response time, supply lines,and overall economic effectiveness. One CNC shop with people and capability can support multiple customers and continue to become highly competent and competitive. One machine in a single use environment better have some repetitive volume or they have an expensive dust collector on the floor consuming valuable resources. Not to mention dust doesn't mix well with vinyl and paint shops without MORE dedicated clean space. Not great rationalization to become an owner and certainly not competition IF they focus on their repetitive parts, or vinyl signs. It is incumbent upon us to differentiate ourselves and help them do the same themselves through our products, services and skills.
We independents just need to stay nimble and flexible serving multiple markets while expanding our level of competency.
That diversity is Key in my opinion to a healthy mix of markets, seasonalities, customers and an overall healthy business model.
Lots of ways to "skin the cat" but I really don't see the competition beating you unless they are simply better at their focus. As it should be in a market driven,capitalistic society. "You have nothing to fear but fear itself"
There are commodity niches and "Rich niches". We perfer the latter, seem to have more fun there, and learn something new every day. What more could one ask for?
bot on!

[gerald_d]

Mike, your profession was "data capture" or "recording" - something that is absolutely natural for computers to do. You weren't trying to create pretty mountains, lakes, beaches, etc. I am not making light of your past profession, but I don't think it compares to the "creative" or "artistic" professions.

[wcsg]

Hey, my post got hijacked!

[mikejohn]

Gerald
It was only technical. It was incidental that photography was involved.
I didn't intend to compare that with design and illustration, quite the reverse.
I guess I must try harder to get what I mean across first time


.........Mike

[earld]

My 2¢:
I cut my teeth in the machine shop at the tail end of the "old school" machinists who ruled the roost. They were incredibly knowledegable and kept most of their experiences to themselves, all the way to the grave. We lost around 36k machinists and tool & die makers a year for a decade, with no one coming in to replace them as college was the popular pipeline.
The thinking about 25 years ago was to replace machinists with cnc machine tools and cheap operators, with a few cnc technicians to keep the machines running. Didn't work. The cnc machinists that did well were previously machinists that had put in their 5 year learning curve. Tool & die shops still had to hire highly skilled tool & die makers to do final fitting and provide the answers.
Now, all the technology and skill is being farmed out to China... Think about that fallout.
I'm seeing the same in the wood industry.
The cnc router is not a replicator, but is a very valuable asset in the right hands. It can range from the computer being a brush and the router being the canvas to a very efficient mass production machine tool, if you can get the details covered that Gerald was posting recently, for a skilled set-up person and semi-skilled operators. And redundent, goof resistant buttons.
But, the cnc in a shop that has crafts-people that have been around the block and know the strengths and weaknesses of the different machines (and hand tools) will do quite well.
As long as their business skills are on par with their trade skills...
EtP

[tuck]

Well all righty, then! Here we go!!!

Raymond, I have NO DOUBT whatsoever that you will not only profit very well from your new Alpha, but enjoy it just as much. You have an established business, you're a fine designer, and your new machine will only help you continue to prosper with what you (and your son) love to do and are good at. I didn't spell it out, but the gist of this thread (inspired by Erik Gastelum), is more directed at folks that might now be thinking about buying a flat-bed router and "going into business". My message to them is: "You better have a plan and be ready for some stiff competition." As I posted in another thread, I personally know of a local guy who purchased a new Alpha last year, with all the bells and whistles, when he was worried about his "day job security". His fears were unfounded, and that machine sits in his garage "gathering dust" instead of "making dust". That just breaks my heart! A $15,000.00 machine, gathering dust! :-(

On a side note, Raymond, I'd put my design skills up against yours or Joe Crumley's or anyone's. Either you got it or you don't. But like Earl Doane says; "business skills on par with trade skills". Business skills is something I may be lacking in, but I'm working on that. Meanwhile, I don't do too bad surviving on the scraps that folks like you and Joe drop on the floor! Ha! ;-)

Jerry, that was a GREAT post! You made me start thinking about diversification instead of prolification. I might do well to hit-up some of the local small cabnitery and woodworking shops, shake the bushes and see what falls out. What I've learned about CNC can carry over to other trades easily. Thanks, man!

And last but not least, BKT. The "difficulty" of programming a CNC falt-bed router machine may well be the last "secret" we have. With a little practice (and a few mistakes), it's child's play. There will always be occasional headaches with it (program glitches, etc...), but it's really easy and a rewarding thing to learn. HOWEVER,...all of the computer skills in the world can never replace good design skills. They are really two seperate things, but if you can combine them both, you can be a fairly dangerous man!

[mikejohn]

Have you ever noticed that, when you first take on a piece of new software, it's like having to climb Mount Everest in the worst winter weather ever, but when you finally make the peak, and look down the other side its just sun drenched rolling meadows with wild flowers and butterflies.
You have to think back hard when others are at base camp about to make the climb, to remember how it felt.

......................Mike

[tuck]

Mike, that's EXACTLY how it was for me. It was a foriegn languge, so to speak, but really not NEAR as hard to learn with a little help and some practice. Now, I can whip up a good sign design in short order, create a tool path, and go make my 'Bot sing like a bird. After 4 years, I still marvel at watching it do exactly what I told it to do and in the order I told it to do it. It rarely complains (well, just spent $300.00 for a new router), and has yet to ask for a pay raise.

[tuck]

I have a complaint. 30 minutes to edit a post is not NEARLY long enough! I need 24 hours to study my own nonsense! Reason?

"prolification". Yeah, I said it. But you guys know what I meant; "proliferation". You know that, right?

It don't matter now. I'm an idiot! :-)

BTW, is "prolification" a word? I keep saying it here and elsewhere. What does it mean? I can't find it in Websters. It sounds sinful, maybe that's why.

[gerald_d]

Prolification has to do with the Pro-Life movement? Let's not go there!

[tuck]

"Prolification has to do with the Pro-Life movement? Let's not go there!"

Okey Dokey! Ha ha!

Back to the subject matter: Gerald, with your particular wisdom and experience (which is obviously very much valued here by myself and many others), what would YOU tell someone that was thinking about buying a ShopBot or any other CNC flat-bed router and "going for it" these days? What do you have to say?

[gerald_d]

"Let's not go there!"

It is not the right decision for everybody. Many people over-estimate the capability of CNC - they believe that CNC will relieve them from having to think.

[mikejohn]

Cast your mind back 25 years. What advice would have been given about getting a 'home' computer?
I was lucky in computing by having a young son who forced me to learn to teach him, then after 5 years when he became 12 he taught me.
Anyone not computer literate in this day and age will find business life extremely difficult in almost any small business. It won't get easier in the future.
Remember how long and how difficult it was to sort out technical problems, learn of new ideas, source materials and tools before we had the internet and Forums like these.
Marks' question might be better put by asking "What advice would you give someone not to get into CNC routing".

..............Mike

[jhicks]

Mark, glad it makes sense to someone besides me and hope it opened your eyes to the endless possibilities. Everyone has a comfort zone which they gravitate naturally towards. The challenge is to extend your reach beyond those comfort zones and you might be amazed what you will find out there.
Follow the money. Wherever there is discretionary spending to satisfy peoples WANTS, there are opportunities to fill that desire. The bot, skills, and a creative/ open mind obviously are able to come up with some really cool commercially viable products or works of art. Thanks to the advancements in CNC in particular at Shop Bot plus this overwhelmingly creative and supportive forum, camps, and overall wealth of inspirational botters,one can truly be independent and proud of their unique creations.
To those who might consider purchasing a bot, I say; no free ride but you get out of it what you put into it in more ways than you might imagine.
Bot On!

[earld]

And to add another 2¢ to Jerry's message-
There are things that the ShopBot can perform that I never could do with regular machines or by hand. The designs are in my head, and the computer tranports them to the ShopBot and removes the waste until the final idea emerges.
Computers as well as the ShopBot should not be the goal. The end results that are attainable with these tools are the real brass ring.
However, I also enjoy the designing, program editing and operations that come from using cnc.
I strongly recommend ShopBot because of their attention to detail and caring to do the "right things" with their customers. When I opened the crate and found a ShopBot ball cap, I knew these were good people.
Earl

[bill.young]

I was wondering where I put my hat!


(sorry...couldn't resist)

[earld]

Wasn't going to mention the socks and women's under garmets...

[wcsg]

Hey, I never got a ShopBot Ball Cap with mine!

SCOTT?!?!?!?!

[mikejohn]

Ball cap?
Around here we wear jockey shorts!

[gerald_d]

or cricket boxes

[slendon]

I'm a bit slow off the mark here...but great post Jerry....

[jhicks]

Thanks for the positive feedback. since that went over well I have 2 more cents but keep in mind, my advise/opinions are worth just a little less than you pay for them.
One thing I keep in mind when trying to rationalize a price is,; What is the alternative and what would it cost?
Example: A cabinet shop or furniture shop has many tools but generally they are best suited to straight cuts. Sure thay have band saws, routers etc but the vast majority of their work tools and skill centers around straight cuts, dados, edge banding, routing, finishing etc.
So what happens when they want a perfect circle table top, an oval, a cabinet arch, or a 2 piece corner kidney bean shaped desk top? How would they go about making one?
One can create a template and draw it on the stock to cut with a jig saw, band saw, or router.
OK, the time to create the template for a single use is costly and no doubt imperfect at best and has blade or bit marks along the edge.(moreso than a BOT cut)
With a 2 part corner designed kidney shaped front desk face, both need to match perfectly or be sanded to fit. And don't forget about odd walls. leg cut outs, or corner outcroppings either.
Then one could cut the template to route around or set up a circle jig for the band saw. OK, more time doing something that's NOT their every day process and probably also requires a temporary set up to hold the large sheet stock level as they cut or route it. When they complete the cut, hopefully its correct but not unheard of to do over. More time, material, etc.
Mind you that guy doing this could have cut several side panels for another cabinet in a fraction of the time with no scrap and be assembling them right now generating invoices. And he's probably one of the better cabinet makers in the shop because the apprentice/ trainee will surely cut it twice.
Now the top is complete. Then one wants a routed edge. Sounds simple enough BUT if those edges aren't crisp, the router bearing will follow all that edge chatter and you know what that means. Uneven, rippled edges on that beautiful Cherry top routed edge pattern. HMMMM. Not good.
They know this as well so they now spend time having someone hand sand the edge before routing the edge detail. PHEW!! Thats a long and expensive process with an uncertain outcome until they have it completed and in their hands.
So when we think about cost and the cost/ft, cost/ hr etc, it rarely represents the true value.
The value in outsourcing it is, keep your cabinet makers on task doing what they are good at and set up to do. Hand that top off and let the supplier worry about the fit, edge and scrap.
OK then, percieve that value as material with a slight and fair mark up for delivery and handling. Some of these customers tell me they use material cost x 2.
Then the estimated hours the customer would probably spend. (often they will tell you if you ask, but its not necessairily the whole truth) times their hourly shop rate (here its rare to hear anything under $75.00/ hr.)
So that plywood or maple circle which takes them 1,1/2 to 2,1/2 hours to pattern, trace, cut,and sand without the routed edge seems to have a market value of $115.00 to $190.00 plus material.
And that doesn't count any gluing up, surfacing etc on hardwoods.
Not to mention the invoices they didnt send out because journeyman was setting up templates and jigs for the saw/router.
Sound unreasonable? Well its happening out there with items Botters are better at than table saws, band saws, jig saws, and hand routers. Among those things are non linear shapes and letters, being made, purchased, or used in custom furniture,cabinet, and franchise vinyl sign shops as we speak.
Hope its some new food for thought weather you build those complex shapes for your products or someone elses, there is some added value there compared to a square table or desk top.
Thats why my jig saw,band saw, and hand routers are collecting dust.
Something about a serpentine curve, oval or an arch is fun to make and pleasant to the eye and the wallet.
Bot On!

[jhicks]

I had to add these final last thoughts.

Next time you make your pitch, throw in a curve. There are unparallelled opportunities out there for you.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[earld]

Just run/show a demo that cuts an involute spiral with 20 lines of SB code...
If that's not enough, do it in 3d with a rise to the center.
Twice.
2¢

[gerald_d]

I reckon I could keep a bot busy in Cape Town cutting only circles and ellipses all day long. Pizza platters, stool tops, tables, mirror frames, picture/photo frames,.... The local board shops are often asked "who can cut a circle out of this for me?" and they drop our name.

Yesterday morning a guy called and asked the price to cut a single 6" circle out of a piece of hardwood that he would supply. $6. Can it be done before the weekend? Sure, bring in your wood. An hour later a pick-up truck arrives with a full size, L-shaped, kitchen counter and the driver standing there with $6 in hand wanting a hole cut out for some fancy garbage disposal unit!

Some may call this the "bottom feeder" market. But balance that out with the chat at the bot when the customer realises that don't have a portable circle cutter, but a machine for shaping the outside of his counter tops as well......

Now, back to the subject of this topic, CNC. If one does end up cutting circles all day, then we should be able to do that without computer control - with some mechanical rig. Everything does not have to be CNC in the end.

[tuck]

A wooden kitchen counter top? That's kinda unusual. I would have said $60.00! Some in here may have insisted on $600.00! Ha! But you can't even buy a 6" hole saw for $6.00, so they got a deal!

[jhicks]

I personally liked what Joe Crumley told me about his opinion/perspective on this type of decision making. "If I did it all day could I make any/enough money?" Lets see, discuss the project, meet the customer and move the counter, set up and design the files, chuck the bit and zero it out, cut the file, remove the counter, clean up the table, move counter back to the truck. Not sure that can be done in anything less than 20 minutes. So one at a time equals 3 per hour. $18.00/ hour.
Sounds like a Black hole to me but to each his own.
Everyone has to do what they have to do out there. No question, they saved a ton compared to doing it themselves.
I think the Hole itself would sell as a nice cutting board for about $50.00 + so hopefully you got the scrap or they ended up with a $6.00 cost on that $50.00 cutting board and the counter cut out for $0.00. Guess its all a matter of perspective and value judgements.

[mikejohn]

Wasn't this Geralds very point "Some may call this the "bottom feeder" market. But balance that out with the chat at the bot when the customer realises that (we) don't have a portable circle cutter, but a machine for shaping the outside of his counter tops as well......"

In this country earning $18 an hour is 18 times the minimum wage, which is why I stated in another post direct dollar comparisons, country to country, or even state to state,have little meaning at all

...........Mike

[jhicks]

Guess I missed that part of the case. Argument for the defense duly noted. I still hope he got the circle of scrap for a nice cutting board, as well as the counter tops at the maximum value possible.

[gerald_d]

Jerry, that is definitely not how we make a living - that was an example of how things get misunderstood.

Edited - was typing whle Jerry was posting. We didn't care about the off-cut - our business is contract cutting, not trading in off-cuts.

[mikejohn]

If you know my belief about Gerald from other posts, he can always make them an offer they can't refuse

[gerald_d]

Mike, Jerry, you guys are too fast for me. If customers don't collect their off-cuts, they go in the dumpster. We have a good band of dumpster-divers who invariably bring cutting work as well. We are focussed that the strength of the business is CNC cutting....period. Besides, I collect mechanical junk - don't want to contaminate that with wood as well.

[btk]

I have always tried to counter-ballance Custom Design Work with more productized items. If all work is hinged on "design", then it could create a bottleneck (particularly if there is only one designer in the firm).
While design is a big differentiator, In my experience, I feel that the biggest differentiator is Good Marketing and Good Service (this is coming from someone who has been trained extensively in Design and a large portion of my work is pure design). Not to put words in his mouth, however I think that Gerald would have loved to have cut 50 holes @ $6 each, however he is building a focused "CNC cutting business" and you have to take the small ones along with the large ones or you risk getting a stigma of being picky and hard to work with and to some point, have to chalk up as a cost of doing business.
I think that Gerald was also pointing out that the $6 job was serving also as marketing/advertising to a potential new client. I personally have seen many "$6 holes" turn into months of work.
I have not had that much luck turning a $600/ hole into the same. However the obvious trick is how to ballance this and figure out after speaking with the client if this is going to lead to more work and adjust their expectations accordingly for future work and your minimum orders, etc.

Back to CNC Adoption....I still feel that the largest limiting factor to quicker CNC adoption is the lack of computer fluent fabricators (as opposed to the pure cost of the machine). As more people come out of school who grew up on computers, they are going to think of CNC machines more as "printers" of there work. However as was always the case in all businesses, good marketing and good service can bring you to the forefront (as well as design and other differentiators).

Brian

[gerald_d]

That $6 hole started as a $6 circle on the phone - assuming the customer is bringing a 8x8 square and wanting to take home a 6" circle. For that, total program, clamp and cut time is under 10 minutes. Remember "Van"? He does these for his own pocket as part of his training (1 or 2 a week). Min wage here is $2 per hour.

[andyb]

Well, I think I need to respond to the post by Mark farther up the thread in my defense and maybe the defense of other that have a Shopbot sitting in their garage. I’m the local botter that Mark is referring to that has a Shopbot sitting in my garage. Mark and I haven’t actually met yet, we’ve talked on the phone a couple of time. I still look forward to meeting Mark and seeing his shop if he has the time. My understanding is he is a very talented sign maker and designer.

What I have is an Alpha96 with a 5 hp spindle and a home built steel welded table. The table cost me a total of $475. It was welded for free. I wouldn’t consider that all the bells and whistles. Some may say the 5 hp spindle is overkill, maybe! I purchased the spindle after talking with several friends and co-workers. I had my reasons at the time and still have them.

Currently, I consider myself a woodworking hobbyist. When I bought my bot, I bought it for two reasons. One was that I enjoy woodworking and have been actively pursuing it again. Second was to have something to fall back on IF something did happen with my day job. I’m in the computer field by trade, working for a manufacturing company. My company was bought and sold three times in five years. Each time downsizing occurred. Mark’s statement about my job concerns being unfounded is incorrect and I have 84 ex-coworkers who can attest to that. Albeit, my job seems to be safe for now, but I work in the corporate world and if anyone thinks their corporate job is safe they need to be slapped back into reality. I think I’ve seen a post my Brady and ours that can attest to that also.

I decided to buy my Shopbot while I could afford it and not wait until I couldn’t afford it. I didn’t buy it thinking that I was going to become rich overnight or even rich at all. It does have the potential of making me money but I realize that it will take time and could one day maybe turn into something fulltime if I needed it to. If I can make a little money now to help pay for the bad boy, that’ll be alright by me.

Yes, I’ve had my Shopbot eight months, in that eight months I’ve been learning to use the Shopbot and what it can and can’t do. The way I currently look at the Shopbot is that it is a toy for my hobby. For others it is their livelihood. But, what’s the difference in me buying a $15000 Shopbot for my hobby and my friend/co-worker that just purchased a $22000 bass boat with all the bells and whistles literally for his hobby of bass fishing.

My bot may be collecting dust but I do dust it off a couple days a week and on weekends. Currently I’ve been working on two projects. I just cut some parts for a local cabinet shop and I’m waiting on more. Also, I just finished a prototype for a table for an associate. That may be a contradiction to my previous statement about being a hobbyist but when they found out I had a CNC, they came to me I didn’t go to them.

As I said, I consider myself a woodworker and not a sign maker. I realized that when my daughter wanted me to cutout a sign with a beach theme for her room. Viewing the posts of the sign makers on this forum, they have way more talent than I’ll ever have. So for all you commercial sign makers you can put your fears to rest. I won’t be treading on your turf anytime soon.

Oh, the sign for my daughter, she still doesn’t have her sign.

Andy B.

[tuck]

Andy, I certainly didn't mean any offense and sorry if it came across that way, friend.

BTW, I'd be happy to help you make a sign for your daughter when time allows. I think I have some "beach themes" in my clip art.

[earld]

BTK-
An interesting point you made. But, and I don't have any facts on this, would the market for cnc machines be driven by people coming out of school with design and computer skills or from craftsmen and people from the trades that have an understanding of what these machines are capable of performing? It takes a craftsman far less time to integrate into cnc than it does for a computer designer/engineer to learn the trades.
And, concerning Gerald selling $6 holes, goodwill is a huge part of business and is a major pricepoint when selling an established business.
2¢

[andyb]

Mark,
I didn't take offense to it. In some ways you maybe right. I just wanted to get the point across that I consider myself a hobbyist also that I realized when I bought the bot that there was going to be a learning curve and no instant gratification. I just hope that others thinking about purchasing a CNC don’t expect instant gratification, even current business owners. There is always the learning curve. When I was thinking about purchasing a CNC I had a long talk to our Engineer at work that handles the companies CNCs and we talked about the pro’s and con’s. The more I talked to him the more and more I saw the benefits of owning one. He has been of great help. He also put me in contact with other resources. However, the best resource so far has been this forum and the Atlanta Camp. I’ve gotten several ideas from material holddown to material alignment to projects.

Like I said in my post, I haven’t actively looked for outside work but it found me. If more comings my way, I’ll took it. But I let them know up front that I’m still an apprentice of sorts. They haven’t had a problem with that yet.

Oh, as for the bot sitting in my garage, my wife says that if I do start a business I can call it "Mom's New Car Woodworking".

Thanks for the sign offer for my daughter. But, I think she is on another fad this month. She’s 14 and her mind changes with the wind.

One last thing, I saw that you also posted in Letterville. I went looking for some of your work. I saw the door that you hand carved. It’s a beautiful piece of work. You should post the picture here for other to see or at least the link to the picture.

Anytime you want to sit down over a beer, I’m just down the road. I sure I could draw from your knowledge. I’ll add a no compete clause to the deal.

Andy B.

[jhicks]

Food for thought never goes to waste, when its served to a table hungry for ideas.

As usual, There has been some good food for thought here and I learn something new every day.
Thanks

[btk]

Earl,

I agree, probably the more rapid adoption of CNC will mainly be by crafts/tradesman who are entering the workforce with more computer skills than before.
10-15 years ago, CNC was mostly found in larger corporations and universities, however as more machines are located in high schools, a new generation will think of CNC as basic shop equipment.
I do however think that CNC could help level the playing field between those gifted with traditional trades skills and those who come from a more computer/technical background, so perhaps (as evidenced by some people on this forum) more CNC users will be coming from that backround as well.
When I first started with CNC, there were not a lot of people who were exactly sure what it was. Now, I deal with a lot of Architects, and recently (in the past 2-3 years) the younger architects all have CNC experience from their graduate programs and are very fluent in the capabilites.
I had an intern here last summer from my old Mechanical Engineering Department. When I went through that program 15 years ago, we had 1 CNC machine that was necessary to schedule time on in advance. The Students now have casual access to several CNC machines, Turning Centers, Stereolitography, etc.
When these guys get out of school, I can not see them doing much of anything by hand :-).

Brian

[rookie432]

Very interesting thread. I would like to chime in by saying I started out just like Andy. To me it was buy it while I had the opportunity and leard how to use the machine and if I made money with it great. I still work full time and it's unlikely that I will be quitting anytime soon however the bot paid for itself within a little over a year and thats just working evenings and weekends. I have to align myself with Jerry's thoughts on subcontracting and specializing work. I really liked what he has to say here. I was suprised to land decent work from several cabinet shops just doing stopped flutes. It didn't occur to me that cabinet shops would have such difficulty with these however as it goes they have to mill them blind face down on a router table and get their alignment perfect. Very time consuming and if the material rests a hair to long on the cutter ...well we get a burn mark...
who would have thought something as simple ase flutes for us would have been so difficult for the old pro's. Translates to cash for us. I think there will always be niches for us.
Being a part time botter(evenings and every second on the weekend I get has also put me in a position to look at ways to make things quicker for botters and cnc users in general. Like James Booth and Vector art we also have been working on prividing helpful products for cnc users. I think we will begin to see more offshoot service businesses to the cnc industry. As proliferation grows this becomes a unique opportunity for veteran cnc users to provide niche products to the cnc market themselves. Lets face it we are our own market as well. Brady has figured this out . Since the veterans have taken the hard knocks and figured out a "special jig or tool that works well,saves time, and allows us cnc guys to put more chedder in our pockets I say bring it to market. If you show me how to make more money faster I'm gonna buy it.
With these theories I would have to say I'm not too worried about proliferation. I like what John Forney says about this...
"every cabinet shop has the same table saw but I still make plenty of money with mine."


Bill

[tuck]

Very nice post, Bill!

And Andy, thank you! I will post a pic of those doors in this very thread as soon as I figure out how to do it right. So far, no luck! Ha!

I'll be looking forward to that beer! We'll do that at my place on the lake here, and I'll show you some stuff in my shop and how I go about doing some of the things I do It'll be fun! ;-)

[richards]

Tools are tools. Some roofers still pound every nail with a hammer - but they don't get much done in a day. Their competition, using air nailers, can do the job in a fraction of the time. Given the fact that both roofers probably have the ability to lay down shingles properly, the air-gun guy is going to either have more money in the bank at the end of the week, or a lot more time on his hands. To me, the CNC is a tool. It can't think for me. It can't design for me. It can't find customers for me. It can't stop me from making stupid mistakes. BUT, if used properly, if I've thought out the process properly, if I've designed proper tool paths, if I've found customers, and if I'm careful in my use of the tool, the CNC will help me do my work in a fraction of the time that it would take using more ordinary tools.

For those of us who remember the days when using a computer meant punching holes in cards and then waiting forever for time on the multi-million dollar main-frame computer just to see if the programming was correct, having a personal computer finally allowed us to write a program and then test it as quickly as we could type. It didn't stop us from making mistakes, and the quality of the program still depended on us using whatever talent and training that we had, but, if we knew what we were doing, the personal computer let us be efficient.

So, tools are tools. They can help us or hinder us - depending on how we use them. One fact remains constant - anyone properly using a new tool will be more efficient than the ludite that always insists that the old way is the only way.

[gerald_d]

Before the age of computers it had never been possible to make so many mistakes in such a short span of time. That's one of the advantages of CNC - it makes much more consistent mistakes.

[tuck]

I don't know about that, Gerald. Even the most basic "tool/device" can get you in trouble if you aren't concentrating enough. Personally, Ive read a "6" as a "9" (and visa-versa), more than once on a tape measure and screwed up some jobs royally!

I can be PLENTY consistent with my mistakes (in more ways than one), on a daily basis, and I don't need any help from my computer to help me screw everything all up! :-)

[btk]

Earl,

...also, I was just thinking after reading Bill's post that it is interesting to take note that just as you mention that many technical/computer professionals can be helped into the crafts/trades via CNC, it also works in reverse and as more craftsmen become familiar with computers and cnc technology, many are venturing into programming, automation and associated digital businesses (for example, read Bill Youngs Bio page on the new Shopbot website).

Brian

[bob_lofthouse]

A quick example......

I dropped out of woodwork @ school when I was 14.

I'm more computer/sales orientated.

None of my employees will let me touch a circular/jig saw and always politely decline my help with any handcutting.

Being a holiday in the UK I decided to let all my staff go early in the afternoon. What a big mistake!!!

As I'm about to lock up a customer turns up at our premises desperate for an oblong piece of ply 20" x 60". I didn't want to let the guy down so spent the next 5mins looking in horror at various hand held cutting tools wondering which I should use...

In the end I bottled it and drew and cut the wood on the cnc in a matter of minutes.

The customer was impressed.

And now I finally understand why my guys don't want my help.

Give me a computer keyboard anyday!

[earld]

Brian (BTK)-
We are on the same page.
As a craftsman, there are many things that I can accomplish with the ShopBot that were difficult, if not impossible, because of my skill handicaps- I can't draw or reproduce a carving based on drawing. But, I became a wizard with T- Square drafting and then CAD. I really dove into cnc and immersed myself in anything I could find.
What I have discovered, in the trades, is that in the recent past, engineers and designers had a tough time in the shops applying their education to the practical realities of the shop. From what your telling me, perhaps engineering schools have woke up to this and are sending better prepared graduates to the market. I hope so. I lost a few jobs because I upset a few "junior" engineers for not knowing what they were talking about in the shop environment.
On the other side of the coin, if I'm reading the cards right, most of the work requiring skilled trades is being farmed out overseas, which will result in the skills and trades disappearing from the states. Perhaps the previously "junior" engineers have eliminated their problems after all- the crusty machinst in the back of the shop has all but vanished. Google "Jay Leno, machinists".
I do not worry much about an over-proliferation of low cost cnc machines. The machines will perform as programmed, and it will be the talent and vision of the programmer that determines the success of operation.
I just hope there will be enough wood or raw materials available at a reasonable cost to keep operating within the supply/demand theater.
Earl

[btk]

Earl,

I grew up in a Construction/Development business, and have been designing/drawing/building things forever.
I was using some of the first available CAD programs on a Macintosh in 1984 and have been upgrading ever since, always looking for more technology to help me create things more efficiently. After 5 years of Drafting/Architecture and Design studies, I felt I needed to switch from Architecture to Mechanical Engineering where the facilities (at that time) were only available for more advanced 3D CAD/CAM programming and manufacturing to do what I wanted.
In the more progressive Engineering programs in US and elsewhere, they now take a more "Integrated" or "Concurrent" Design approach to teaching where Engineering(electrical, mechanical and computer), Design, Architecture and Business students all work together in small teams and learn the art of Design for Manufacture etc. The goal is for better communication and apperciation of each others disciplines, needs, etc. Hopefully this helps bridge the commuication gap and the result is better products/processes.

Along with a raw material shortage in the future, if current trends continue, we will be facing a serious shortage of Engineer Graduates in US as well if enrollments keep declinging.

Brian

[jhicks]

BTK, Your input on offshore is undeniable for both design and fabrication skills BUT fortunately the good old USA just seems to keep up with the challenges. Guess its a good thing the technology is available to us and the BOOMERS are staying active until the younger generation catches up.
Sounds like more opportunity on the horizon.
No offense to the rest of the Global Bot community. I'm sure you folks face similar challenges and are responding as well.

[drodda]

All the Engineering grads that I deal with are only interested in how much they can make. They come out of school with very little knowledge that is usable in the real world market. I deal with this every day and have seen many of them come and go as a result. I do not have a engineering degree but I hold a positions as a designer for an engineering firm. Schools do not teach students how to design they just teach them how to pass the next test so they can show good numbers at graduation. With this system we are on a downward spiral. Who is going to do these jobs when all us "OLD" people are no longer wanting to carry the torch? I don't think the younger generation has any interest in catching up?

This of course is just one persons opinion. It's going to get much worse before it gets better.

By the way I turned 39 last week.

[tuck]

Like Mike Richards says, "Tools are tools". You DO NOT have to be an engineer to operate a CNC machine. It's taught in High Schools and Technical schools all over the world. In the spirit of this thread, "It ain't no big secret anymore". This is not to say that "any idiot can do it", but it is to say that anyone with a mechanical apptitude and some computer skills can still buy a CNC flat-bed router and make $$$ with it,IF they can find a ready market for their machine and what THEY are capable of doing with it.

[richards]

Well said Mark.

My travels used to take me regularly to San Francisco where I often listened to street musicians playing their hearts out for spare change when just across the street were professional musicians playing in the symphony hall for professional saleries. To my tin ear, both sounded good. I suppose that the professional was considerably more disciplined than the street musician.

In the CNC world, I would imagine that some people systematically practice the CNC craft until they've mastered the capabilities of their machine, thus preparing themsleves to be able to confidently take any job that lies within the capabilities of their machine, while others seem to be content to do as little as possible to make a buck.

Years and years ago, when I was serving a two-year stint in Belguim and France as a missionary for my church, Richard L. Evans, a man known world-wide for his radio addresses, interviewed me. Part of my assignment at the time was to run the offset printing presses. He asked a little about what I was doing and then asked, "Are you professional in what you're doing?" That question made me think - and it still does. Whether we're the only CNC operator in town, or whether there's a shop on every corner, if we're professional, we'll find an audience who will appreciate our ability.

[earld]

Mark-
I agree, you don't have to be an engineer to "operate" a cnc machine. But you do need to know things engineers know to do programming, setup and operations with one. To get a strong grip on the cnc one needs algebra and trig. Emphasis on strong grip. Yes a "tool is a tool". A tool is a device that magnifies effort for increased efficiency.
Mike-
I don't agree with the musician analogy and engineering. Both musicians you refered to have had long hours of practice in their crafts. The symphonic musician had the advantage of recieving music theory and the classical training- both integrated into practical application by long hours of practice and experimentation to arrive at a mastery of the craft.
Engineers evolved out of the machine trades and eventually dropped the shop training (according to the Smithsonian Institute) and focused solely on the theoretical side of design, without the practical experience. Then are sent to industry.
I have seen many machinists, after spending 4-5 years in an apprenticeship which is theory and shop experience, pick up on cnc within a couple of months. And, I have seen junior engineers struggle for years with designing cnc operations and eventually get a technician or machinist to get the operations working. My point is that a few classes without hands on practice do not a cnc machinist make. Engineers are being short changed by not getting more of an apprenticeship in the trades they are designing for presently. Won't matter for long though, the trades and designing are being farmed out to those willing to put in the "effort" overseas to make it all work for them.
Now, the exception to above. Probably the reason I feel so strongly about this forum is that it is composed mostly of entrepreneurs or those with entreprenureal spirit- who want to be independent, have sharp, curious minds that want to excell and become restless being a manager.
Those who are undertaking the cnc routing for reasons of becoming wealthy usually don't hang around long. Which isn't to say that many here haven't done well in their endeavors. Entrepreneurs will apply themselves to learn new skills and have the drive to achieve their goals, no matter what level of their abilities.
Earl

[drodda]

I think Earl has found the golden ring. I think that the key ingredient to this is the Entrepreneureal spirit. Without this all the knowledge in the world won't make your CNC business successful. I think this is the main thing that shopbot was founded on and this trait in people is what makes this such a great place to find information.

[tuck]

"Mark-
I agree, you don't have to be an engineer to "operate" a cnc machine. But you do need to know things engineers know to do programming, setup and operations with one. To get a strong grip on the cnc one needs algebra and trig. Emphasis on strong grip. Yes a "tool is a tool". A tool is a device that magnifies effort for increased efficiency. "

Earl, with all respesct, I think we may be comparing apples to oranges. Having been a fairly successful CNC man for some time now, I can PROMISE you that what I know (remember) about algebra and trig wouldn't even fill up a "sticky note". Lol!

The challenge I faced some 4 years ago was learning computers and CAD and getting comfortable with that, as well as my Bot and its' capabilities. I made a few mistakes early on, but not many because I had an experienced mentor that was there for me for help and training, for which I paid him accordingly. Looking back, it was $$$ very well spent.

Before I took the plunge, I had spent most of my working life as a sign designer/fabricator. My experience in that was invaluable. The "design" aspect came naturally to me, but working with various power tools was something I had to learn and that's what I mean by "a mechanical apptitude". It helps immensely to be comfortable with and confident in power tools and what their capablities/limitations are. I had run hand-routers for years, for instance, so I already knew that you can only plunge "so deep" and go "so fast" without hogging the bit and burning/ruining your material, CNC or not.

But back to algebra and trig; I recently designed and cut a large set of planetary gears for a motorized display. They were all of different sizes (circumfrances), but the gear teeth had to be of the same size and spacing and mesh perfectly for them to spin correctly and not bind or jam once the display was hooked up, plugged in and spinning. How did I figure out how to do it?

Pi=3.14159265

:-)

[rookie432]

Where there is a will there is always a way. That's the entrepreneureal spirit at its best. I remember Bill Gates had no idea how he was going to develop windows for IBM but he sold them on it. He figured he'd find a way. Of course Bill may be a bad example as he did kinda pillage a bit to get a final product, but I was always awestruck by the deal. He didn't sell them on a product he already had. He just sold them on the idea and committed that he could deliver. It was a huge risk/gamble and he ended up coming up sevens.
He's the richest man in America and to punctuate the kind of wealth he created the second richest man in America was his longtime college friend and partner. That's a lot of wealth to create the 2 richest men in America.
The moral to the story I guess is that abilities/and capabilities are debateable but I see success coming from "being at the right place at the right time" in many cases and be willing to take a Risk. History is littered with folks like this. Ode's are written about them. The trick for us is to be ready when the opportunities present themselves and some of that comes from creating opportunities. I couldn't do a trig problem today without spending a few hours refreshing myself and that is a conservative estimate but I wouldn't necessarily turn down a lucrative contract because it required a lot of trig. My will..will find its way.


Bill

[rookie432]

P.s. I would probably subcontract Earl to do the trig. tehee

[earld]

Mark-
Nice post. Approached cnc from the crafts side.
What was the DP of the gears you built? Were they involute?
Bill-
Do you think Steve Jobs feels the same about Windows and Microsoft?
Do you guys do any manual programming or are you strictly CAD/CAM? Try this manually- make an octagon that is 10" across flats- no cheating.
Please let me know how it comes out.
Back to proliferation issues-
I inhereted a little money from my mother's passing and debated with myself about what to do with it as I preferred to invest it. My conclusion was to return to the world of cnc and create an entrance for oppertunity to occur- The ShopBot. Wouldn't have happened if I'd paid the bills off, or bought a car or something. People bring oppertunity to me now, and my thinking as well as attitude has changed since getting the machine- with the increased creativity I can offer better ideas and applications than before.
What a great forum!
Earl

[tuck]

Earl, I don't know what you mean by "DP", (probably some tricky algebra or trig thing, lol!) but yes, they were involute. For those that don't understand what the heck we're talking about, here's an animated sample of involute gear teeth in action:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/gear8.htm

When my customer approached me about the job, I said, "Yeah, sure! I can do that!" Then I had to go figure out how to do it. ;-)

[earld]

Mark-
DP means Diametral Pitch.
Official definition: "In the inch system, diametral pitch is defined as the number of teeth for each inch of pitch diameter. The diametral pitch is equal to the number of teeth divided divided by the pitch diameter." -Machinists Ready Reference
Or:
To find Diametral Pitch, divide 3.1416 by the circular pitch. That's how you did it.
And yes, it's a set of algebraic formulas developed by the American Gear Manufacturers Assn.
My early days of cnc were interesting- no cad and the cam we used was Strathmore & Ticonderoga, version 2. We had to calculate everything with algebra and trig on point to point machines- like the ShopBot. In the shops I worked in a phrase used by the now gone master machinists was "firm grip", and doing the basics by calculation set a strong foundation, especially once the programming became intuitive. But, punching in code for a thousand lines was very tiring and gave rise to mistakes.
One of the best innovations that came along back then was cutter compenstation- you could program based on part dimensions without the trig and the controller would do all the calculations. We would even cheat and tell the controller that the cutter was .020" larger than it really was and the controller would adjust in offset, which was great for roughing. Then, give the true cutter size and do a final pass- very sweet, since I do all my profile work as sub-routines and use the main line for the new z-offset. I would use the cutter comp alot if it was available.
Another "canned" routine I made use of was "axis rotate"- I would programm for one pocket of an open faced pump impeller and repeat the same code in a 30 degree rotation and a sub- routine. With all the custom architectural work we do on the 'Bots, that would be a very huge plus rather than using polar coordinates. ShopBot's pocketing routines are the best that I've seen with the spiral option.
As long as I'm dreaming- For/Next Step xx looping would give me alot more flexibility. Just haven't worked out the coding yet with what is available.
The controller's capability, with canned routines, speaks volumes on behalf on the designer of the cnc machine.
There are still times I manually program the ShopBot, and by knowing the geometrical limitations and pitfalls, it can be faster than going and using cad/cam.
Don't get me wrong- cad/cam is a great tool, especially with software like the Vectric line, PW, and Corel.
I'm just glad I have the firm grip to understand what is going on in the controller and on the cutting table.
I answered alot of questions for myself in this thread and even clarified my relationship to the 'Bot here. Thanks for indulging me in my growth.
I admire your spirit Mark. You typlify the entreprenerial spirit of finding a way to get things done.
And this, I feel, is the Reality of CNC Proliferation.
"I'm still learning"- Michelangelo, age 78
Earl

[tuck]

Haha, Earl! You're EXACTLY RIGHT! I figured out a "Diametral Pitch" with those gears and didn't even realize I did that until now! LOL! LMAO! :-)

I approached it like this: The customer wanted large planetary gears, with about 12" diameter being about the largest, and on down, cut out of hard foam board for the display.

I decided to use 1" wide teeth with (naturally) 1" spacing in between the teeth to keep things simple. So, using "pi=3.1415", I came up with the following formula to make different sized gears that 1" teeth, properly spaced, (1") would fit on:

"Find a diameter that 1" x pi (3.1456) will mulitply into equally."

12.75" x 3.14156 = 40. This means 20 cogs, or teeth, with 20 1" spaces, = 40.

8.28" x 3.14156 = 26. 13 "teeth" with 13 spacings.

6.375" x 3.14156 = 20, or "10 teeth with 10 spacings",......and so on. :-)

Am I on a roll, or what????

The hardest thing was designing the involute gear teeth and arraying them on the circles, but that got easy quickly with SignLab (CAD) once I figured out the steps.

Damn, Earl! I'm a mathematical GENIUS and didn't even KNOW IT! LOL! :-0

Algebra and trig? CHILD'S PLAY! Bring on the quantum physics, dude! Let's get SERIOUS about math!

I've enjoyed this thread immensely! Peace! ;-)

[earld]

Wait until we get into Cartesian Coordinates and Polar Coordinates...
Please give the octagon a try when you get a chance. There is a hidden problen inherent with point to point programming. I'll let you cheat a little. Draw the octagon in a cad/graphics program to get the x&y coordinates of the points, then write a program to make just a skim cut on a surface of scrap, enough to measure the octagonal.
Do you have all the gear formulas? They'll save alot of time if you head that direction again.

Enjoy!

[mikejohn]

Earl
Can we use Excel to achieve the program?
You say there is an inherent problem with point to point programming.
I can't detect it with the octagon.


.........Mike

[earld]

Yeah, Excel would work great for all the gear math.
Are you manually programming? I don't want to give too much away yet.
Earl

[dirk]

Here's my shot at it

Octagon program cut

6113 (23.6 k)

[dirk]

Here's a sheet to produce a part file for a polygon up to 50 sides.


polygon.ZIP (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/315/polygon-12864.zip) (8.5 k)

[mikejohn]

Looking at Dirks solution, I may have read the problem wrong. I had the length of the flats at 10".
Have I got it wrong?

.............Mike

[tuck]

Be careful here, Mike, because Earl is gonna tell you that pi R squared, when everyone in their right mind knows that pi R round. I ate one tonight, so I know that for a FACT!

Don't let Earl get one over on you!

[mikejohn]

Take great care Mark.
In England you do get Pi r squared (or at least rectangular!)

I think I have the answer anyway, 'cos I got the (half) right angle on the result!(.707)

..............Mike

[gerald_d]

Samoosas r delta

[tuck]

Mike, you eat square pies in England? Ewwwwww! And you put SHEPHERDS in them! OMG! :-0

Here's the formula to solve Earl's puzzle:

Any octagon will fit into any rectangle, and every rectangale is divideable by "pi". So, if the rectangle measures, say, 32" x 48", you simply do: 32 x 48 = 1,496. However, any idiot knows that every octagon has 5 sides. So,...5 x 1,496 = 7,480. Divide 7,480 by pi (3.1456) = .706....not .707.

How could you be so silly? What are you guys smoking over there in England?

[mikejohn]

Cos 45º=.707107 Pi=3.14159265,etc,etc
However, your grasp of mathematics seems greater than mine


(My grasp of pi's may be greater than yours, hence my excessive circumference, even if my Pi is smaller than yours!)

.............Mike

[mikejohn]

Pi=3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399 375105820974944592 + another few million places!

[gerald_d]

p = \greek{p}

[tim_whitcher]

The learning curve for making vinyl lettered signs: 24 hours. The learning curve for making CNC routed signs (includes learning software, bit choices, feeds / speeds, substrates, finishing, machine maintenance, etc): ? Most sign shops still "farm out" this kind of job, and will probably continue to do so until CNC sign making is "plug and play". When will that be? I'll be retired by then, but I guess you 20 somethings have something to worry about.

[joewino]

Tim -I think it may just slightly more than 24 hours. I've been doing it for over 40 years and am still learning.

[joe]

Yep,

Even if a CNC's was pure plug & play, with zero learning, I don't think most sign folks would jump right in. None of the SB owners I've spoken to, delayed buying because they were worried about learning. This comes after you've signed the note.

Thanks to Shopbot the price is right.

I would really like to see more photo's of signs on this Forum. We all enjoy seeing botters work.

Perhaps I'll start another series on Monday. Wouldn't it be fun if everyone did a step-by-step on their projects?

Too, too, too, much talk.

J.

[earld]

Ahhh, Joe-
The differences between artists and scientists.
Octogon's are eight sided.
Hexagon's are 5 sided.
Rectangles are not square.
It's 10" across flats.
We are diving a little deeper into what occurs between cad and the machining operations with a look at some simple algebra and trig that is taking place.
No, you don't need to know these things. Cad/Cam will cover most design and programming for cnc and is an inseperable part of the proliferation.
Trying to explain to someone why there is a glitch in their CAD/CAM program, who doesn't have a background in this, can be very difficult. If not impossible.
I came up in the school where we did have to know the theory and practical. Like learning math before using a calculator.
I'll post the solution tomorrow.
Hint- if you program manually using the real world coordinates of the octogon points, the part will not come out to size.
Earl

[earld]

Pentagon's are 5 sided. My bad.

Earl

[tim_whitcher]

Ray,
I paid for my computer and software with the first sign I designed in Casmate (Dos version, 1992). It was a lighted church sign I sold for $5,000.00; ordered from a wholesaler, then vinyl lettered. I did the layout during an eight hour training session put on by my software dealer. I'm still experimenting with the best (most consistent and quickest) ways to produce and finish a routed sign, and I've had my 'bot for three years now. I am a one man shop and produce a lot of vinyl work, so I haven't had the time to work with the 'bot as much as I'd like, but the learning curve is definately greater than a simple layout / cut / weed / apply formula.