Composite decking material

[mziegler]

Has anyone try use composite decking material for signs? I come across a half trash bin of the stuff and been experiment with it. It cuts easily and v-carve wonderfully. I made couple small address signs that look great. V-carve the lettering first (cutting .050 deeper than should be) - spray paint the letters - wait a day - plane off .050 for letters be right depth - then cut out sign - done. The paint seem adheres good - push hard for fingernail to scrap it off - and the paint in the letters didn’t chip when plane off. The decking didn’t have voids in it and at 1 1/8 to 1 ¼ thick it can be v-carve on sides.
Mark

[paco]

Hi Mark!

Hummm... look interesting! Is this recycled platics?

Any pics?

[pete]

Mark, I have been making address signs, ham radio call signs, name signs, etc out of the stuff and I agree it is nice to work with. It typically comes in 5" widths but if you need larger widths, I have been able to 1) rip saw off the rounded edges, 2) joint the edges, and 3) biscuit join and Gorilla glue the edges to make larger width stock. Of course, being decking material it is impervious to weather and makes great house number and address signs. I use the red stuff from home depot - I have not tried TREX brand - I don't care for the appearance of that brand. The stuff I use is very heavy and fairly expensive - but fun to rout. I also thickness plane the "traction ribs" from the wide face of the material as I like the smooth appearance. Pete

[mziegler]

Paco, I think all or most of the stuff is recycled material - plastics. Also the paint I used was paint for plastic by Rust-oleum.

Peter, thanks for the tip on joining the stuff. I also was try to make larger widths. How are your signs doing weather wise? Are the joins holding? What I did - saw edges - joined the planks together with pocket hole jig without glue - wasn’t sure what kind glue to use so didn‘t - v-crave - painted - plane off. The stuff seem to fused in the join when being plane off and making the join invisible. Just wondering will mine joins hold up? Mark

[jsfrost]

Mark, and Peter
Thanks for the tips. I made a lunchtime trip to the lumber store, and have samples to test tonight.

Jim

[pete]

Mark, well, I have not asked anyone that I did the joined material for if the signs are holding up. I am presuming the joints will hold up to weather because I used Gorilla Glue (The strongest glue on earth, as you well know). But I think I will put a sample outside the workshop in the weather to see how it holds up. However, here on the central Cal coast, there is not much (bad) weather. I agree, when you plane the joined material, the joint seems to disappear. I have tried v-carving and, also, raised letters with a hogged out area surronding the letters out to a raised border. They look pretty nice - I used some fancy shapes from the VectorArt collection for the sign outlines. I have not tried painting yet -but will do now that you have provided a paint product suggestion.

Paco - I think the material I use is made from recycled plastic soda bottles mixed with sawdust.

Jim - Glad we could help -

[paco]

Thanks guys! I'll do like Jim!...

[bleeth]

Several months ago Fine Homebuilding ran a comparison of most of the syntho-plank decking out there. They vary in their ingredients and properties and it may pay you to check out the article.

Dave

[stickman]

guys,

I've been wanting to cut that for signs and such. I need to find a deck builder that has some excess of that material. I would love to cut signs and such from it. I would really love to build some adirondack chairs from that material. I also think it would be great for four inch exterior letters.

Jay

[pete]

Jay - I think the material would be great for exterior letters, however, it does not have any structural strength and the material is very heavy. I don't think a person would be able to lift an Adirondack chair made of it. I’m not sure it would be good for furniture for those two reasons. There are some composite materials made for furniture – PlasTeak I think is one of them. Spelling could be wrong.

[mziegler]

I am worry about the joints holding in this material. Does anyone know about this? As Peter mention the stuff has no structural strength and is heavy. A hanging sign would be a no no. But would be good test to see if the joints hold. Mark

[Allegheny (Unregistered Guest)]

I did a project about a year ago with laminated Trex and found that the only adhesive to use was epoxy. According to a page on the West System website, using their epoxy with sanded or unsanded Trex gave incredibly strong joints - i.e., when stressed to failure, the substrate failed, not the epoxy! Unfortunately, I could not find a way to link to this page. Go to www.westsystem.com (http://www.westsystem.com), go to their Search function and type in Trex - there will be 5 citations.

[mziegler]

Thanks Allegheny, I going to order some epoxy today.
Also I stop using the pocket hole jig. The decking slit apart when driving screws in the edges of it, just like mdf. Mark

[donchapman]

If West System says their epoxy works joining Trex I would believe them. I've been using West System epoxy for about 15 years and they are a great company with excellent technical info and support, but I myself have not yet tried their epoxy on composite decking materials.

[ron brown]

I like WEST system epoxy. However, I have used a ton (literally) of System3 epoxy and like it for many qualities it has that Gougeon Brothers stuff doesn't have. I understand MASS has an epoxy that cleans with vinegar (nice) and other epoxies have some different properties also.

Gougeon Brothers (WEST) wrote a book on using epoxy. I have never found anything in it or their technical literature I would disagree with. Their hardened epoxy seems to take chunks from good edge tools. That, and other epoxies more flexible temperature ranges, are the only negative things I have to say about Gougeon Brothers products. Some of the stuff they sell I have only found from them.

Ron

[bleeth]

All epoxies break down from UV light but as an edge to edge adhesive the exposure should be extremely limited. Gougeon has been the product of choice for laminating the blades for wind power electric generator systems for years. I have built entire cold moulded boats from it and I know others perusing this forum who have used it for strip planking and ply-boat encapsulating. When used with cloth as an encapsulator it will then be top coated with a UV inhibiting product such as polyurethane spar varnish. The main thing to remember is that epoxy bonds to hardened polyester (as in fiberglass boats) very well, but polyester will not make a secondary bond on cured epoxy.

Dave

[joe]

Hey guys, I'm stumped.

A couple of years ago I spent some time trying to find a primer for this material along with a good glue. I didn't have much luck at all.

I cut 2"X4" pieces and glued each to a decking plank. I used every glue I had, including Gorilla. Each piece I stuck together could be lifted very easily. Almost no adhesion.

So, I thought if I could find a thinner which would attach this stuff I'd be on the right track. "Chemical Adhesion".
I started with MEK, then acetone, and lacquer thinner. Nope, nothing worked. Well, nothing I was brave enough to use.

Good news however. A few year ago a client requested painting a two post which I had made for a sign. I primed them with Kils, and top coated with acrylic latex. They still look good. So now I'm stumped.

[mziegler]

Composite trim board is a good material to make address signs from. Royal Wood Composite Trim Boards offer lot features over composite decking material. The stuff is lighter than composite decking material. It also is thinner and has wider width - 5/8 to 5/4 thick and up to 12 in. width boards. It also can be paint.. The stuff is pricey though. Menards has it in their stores. Mark

[jhicks]

Sounds like interesting ideas. I have been using poly tone ( made by laminations)and Color Core (made by Kings plastics) which are great materials as well. No paint and with proper bits cut nicely. The 3/4" stock weighs about 3# per sq ft. I used a finger joint router bit, cut the edges on a router table for edge joints and seam the color surfaces on the bias, drill a pilot hole to clear material and reduce expansion, and pocket drilled to join. Very strong and no glue. Just adjust the finger joint bit height to get a clean biased edge joint flat on top & bottom.
Not sure how price compares ($350.00 delivered for a 3/4" 4 X 8 sheet) but the addition of multi color choices gives you a cut and ship sign. The good news is nothing sticks to it,(including grafitti) the bad news is nothing sticks to it (including adhesives). They extrude the colors in a single sheet so no delamination. Materials are Polypropelyne on the poly tone and polyethelene on color core. Used for boat decks, outdoor funiture, chemical baths, and signs. Comes in 4'X 8' sheets so generally a single sign with no joints anyway. I'll have to try the Krylon to see if it sticks and check out the decking materials locally.

[rjguinn@optonline.net]

Jerry,
This material is quite heavy. What methods do you use to wall mount & suspend large signs.
Thanks,
Jeff

[Mike Davis (Unregistered Guest)]

Why don't you re-inforce the edge joints with coarse thread pocket screws on the back side of the signs.The pocket holes and screws could also be used to edge join the 5" material into 10". This material holds screws pretty well, and the addition of a water proof adhesive like Gorilla glue would make a pretty strong joint.

[mziegler]

Here is a picture of a sign made out of composite decking. I made some of these signs 6 months and they been outside since then. The paint still look OK. Mark



6123

[pete]

Mark
Thanks for posting sign photo. What method and what products did you use for painting pls.
Pete

[georgew]

I've been making and selling products made from recycled plastic material for a number of years now. I market mostly to gun clubs and make gun racks, park benches and scorer's chairs. The material I use comes in all the standard deminsional lumber sizes, 2x4,2x6,4x4 etc. My Shopbot makes most of the parts I need and I also engrave lettering into the backs of the park benches. I have used epoxy mixed with oil base paint to color fill the lettering but not often. Usually just engrave quite deep and the shadow effect makes the letters stand out well.

I have not tried to glue this product because the manufacturer assured me that not much will stick to it. The product is made from mostly old milk jugs and is almost impervious to chemicals and solvents.

I do not make many signs from this material but I do use a lot of Poly Carve or Color Core and use the recycled plastic for posts. The company is called Bedford Technologies out of Minn. Their web site is www.bedfordtech.com (http://www.bedfordtech.com). If anyone is interested in the product email me at george@advance-sign.com (mailto:george@advance-sign.com).

[tim_whitcher]

Mark,
I'd like to know what paints you are using as too. How do you "fill" the recessed areas? Are the raised portions painted, as well? Does the decking you use have the "woodgrain" appearance? Thanks, Tim

[steve4460]

Hi Guys

Has anybody tested the Krylon Fusion paint ?.
That stuff is suposed to stick to plastic.

[mziegler]

I use Rust-oleum paint for plastic and Krylon fusion paints for the recessed areas on the signs. The procedure was, routed sign, painted sign, then plane off sign, done. The plane off remove the paint and wood grain texture on the raised areas. I have some test signs outside the shop for six months and the paint still look OK. They have seen some sun, some rain, some snow so I think the paint will last for several years. Mark

[mziegler]

I should mention above that I used a jointer for the plane off. That would save a cutter change on the router. Should the paint peeled or fainted over time, the signs could easy renew by repainting and planning off again. Mark

[jhicks]

The material being described here (or similar to it)is also made by a manfacturing division of Compression polymers Vycom and called trim board. There are also others which incorporate wood by products so I may be on something different here. That Trim Board division isn't too interested in sign makers as their focus is construction BUT, their other division markets a product called CELTEC. Its basically an expanded PVC and comes in 4'x8' sheets.At one point they were marketing "a Color Core" type product as well but have phased it out. Celtec is white and I believe black and basically a light weight expanded PVC. I have been piloting it for use as vacuum pucks and for routed signs. Great for vacuum pucks, flat, closed cell, and by applying Allstar adhesives gasketing tape, it works fantastic. On painting, you can get Krylon type plastic PVC spray paint to stick well but need to clean wipe with alcohol or scuff up the surface a bit for good adhesion. I imagine One Shot would also stick but havent tried it yet. Routes and cuts well from my initial pilots. You can see more at http://www.cpg-vycom.com/
I am also working with John Murphy at Allstar and Gary DiFazio ( 845-496-5394) at Vycom on Vacuum puck development and to try coordinating some inventory at GE polymershapes in Naperville, Il. They have already put some color Core in stock for sign makers so there is now a central US stock if you are interested.
For more info call GE and get Matt Liska or Mike Januska 630-428-4350. I'm sure they would like to hear from more shop botters and sign makers on Color Core or Celtec.
If I can help, let me know.

[Andy (Unregistered Guest)]

Sounds like Foamex- been around 20+ years over here. We get a choice of 25 colours- not just Blk & Wht

[joe]

Yesterday we glued up a piece of Trex with Gorilla Glue. The holding power was anything but impressive. So We turned it over and glued a fresh side with epoxy. We'll see.

There are a few problems with this product. First is weight, second is price, third is painting. Aside from that it looks very good.

Joe

[jhicks]

Jeffrey, the Celtec (expanded PVC) material isn't that heavy compared to Color core which weights in at around 3 lbs per sq ft in 3/4" thick stock. I don't think Celtec weighs half that much in 1" stock but will check. Mechanical mounting is desirable however it is PVC so some adhesives will work and one does need to consider thermal expansion & contraction to allow for some movement. I think color core moves at a rate of approx .300" over a 10' length with a 60 degree F temp change but see http://www.cpg-vycom.com/celtec.asp
site for tech details on Celtec.
It does show some info but other thicknesses are available up to at least 1.0"
Also an interesting site at
http://www.thenewkitontheblock.com
He makes a product with hollow plastic fence posts, cuts a rectangular hole in them, then cuts an H type slot in the ends of the sign and inserts each sign end into a post on a slight angle. The H slotted ends then drop down into the hollow post cut out and square up to the PVC post. So when both ends are assembled and squared to posts, installed to ground footings, they can't be removed. Similar to the post in project ideas for rapid assembly furniture without screws or fittings. This accomodates easy assembly, and any temperature expansion. He seems to have a very nice design, plan, cost, and product offering to wholesale sign shops. Selling wholesale for around $40.00/ sq ft + extras.

[joe]

My results with glueing up plastic lumber.

Jerry is correct with the information about the PVC materials. It carves very well and I think it can be glued up with any pipe joint compound. Latex paint will do a good job of sticking.

As mentioned earlier, we glued up the edges of Trex board with Epoxy. One good rap against the counter and you have two pieces. That same kind of pressure with plywood would have stayed together.

So no luck with Gorilla or Epoxy.

J.