Outdoor Sign help

[pete]

I am quoting a strip mall shopping center request for back-to-back 3'x1' signs (for the individual shops). The signs will be hung outdoors with two eyehooks under a covered canopy - so not too much weather exposure except for wind and ambient humidity (40-50% typically). The signs will have block letters with cleared out background – about a ¼ inch. My question is about material – would you experienced sign makers use extira – say two 1” or 1.5” laminated back-to-back or sign foam or …. Suggestions? Thanks, Pete

[bleeth]

Your best choice could get down to color requirements. Any 3/4" material can be routed 1/4" on both sides so you don't need to go so thick. If the existing colors of King colorcore works for your client then you don't have to paint it and it lasts forever. Since Bill mentioned it the other week I've done some research and have a shot at 200 Realtor Yard signs just because they are a no-maintainence item. By the time you factor in the time and pain painting you are way ahead of the game even with the increased cost of materials. Other than that Extira will be cheapest but I would be careful about screwing eyehooks into the edges. On both it and signfoam you may need to laminate in some solid material to accept the hooks without degrading the holes. There is a lot of liability in hanging signs over a walkway. The mall manager may not have thought about this when he specified signs swinging from hooks.
Dave

[pete]

Dave - Ah, good points. I was going to use long eyebolts, through to the bottom of the signs, for support. Would the King Colorcore support eyescrews into the edge or would I also need to go to the bottom of the sign, do you know? I dread the painting side of this, so a product with color built in would be good. Pete

[billp]

Pete,
You could probably tap/thread a bolt into the Color Core, (and a dab of epoxy wouldn't hurt either...).
Another option is to find some sort of decorative "ring" ( "D"ring, etc.)that could be inserted through the material, and THEN use a fastening to the ring. Marine stores always have a wide variety of stainless/bronze hardware which would work great for an application such as this.
As Dave points out, you might want to stress the liability factor to the mall manager when you bid the job, it will probably give you an "edge" compared to any competition...

[joe]

Dave,

I've had failures with this kind of sign. Here's one solution.

We have a welding shop make a channel iron top with a couple of small rings welded on top. We then drill and bolt through the side. With this technique the sign goes along for the ride.

Our attachment is painted a complementary color which looks clean and professional.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[gene_marshall]

I have some of these with signfoam 18# coming up.
I was thinking of 6" eye lags coated in epoxy dropped into holes in the top.

Has anybody tried this?

I would love advice on this one.
Thanks
Gene

[fleinbach]

I'm not sure why everybody is concerned about the holding power of an eye hook in end grain. If the proper size hole is drilled one 3/16 eye hook will hold 20 times the weight of a 1' x 3' and since you're using 2 hooks it will hold 40 times the weight. This safety factor is far above what's needed in the building codes.

If you drill the proper size hole it will not split. The biggest mistake that most people make is drilling too small a hole or none at all.

[bleeth]

Frank: Those numbers change when the product is an mdf type panel or sign foam rather than wood as neither holds fasteners from the ends nearly as well. I like Joes answer but obviously it drives the price up. I wouldn't worry about the kingboard. That type of plastic holds screws well so Bill's suggestion of tapping or using the right size pre-drilled hole for self-tapping is also acceptable. I'd probably use stainless hardware as well or at least hot dipped. For sign foam how does the idea of boring the top for an epoxied in dowel which is then drilled for a self-tapper sound to you guys who have worked with the stuff more?


Dave

[fleinbach]

In situations like this I was like to make my own test, so I went out in the shop and picked up a piece of three quarter-inch MDF. I drilled a single hole in the edge grain and screwed in a 3/16" eye bolt. I hung it from my panel lift cable and put 1 foot on each side. I picked myself up with this single eye bolt. The peice of MDF was 1' x 2' and the eye bolt held it plus my additional 175 pounds with no problem.

In real life if this were a sign it would never get anywhere near the additional weight applied. So I would not worry that it may fall due to the failure of the material.

[bleeth]

Frank-While hanging from the plank did you let out your best Tarzan yell? I have to admit I would not imagine it holding that well and although that alone is not enough to convince me the right answer to the original post isn't still a different material (Finishing is still a time consuming issue) I'll bear in mind your experiment in the future. BTW-ever get any hurricanes that far up the Chesapeake in BelAir?

Dave

[larry_fiala]

I use threaded rod through all of my hanging pieces and often in standing ones. '1/4-20' rod is easy to bury in just about anything, and couplers, eye rings and hooks are available just about everywhere. You can usually program the slot you need and cut it into the backs of the peices to be laminated, glued or screwed togeteher. Washers and acorn nuts with locktite or epoxy for bottom finishing. May be overkill but they dont fall down. Doesn't require welding
just a hacksaw and a grinder to size the rod and it can be glued into the peice as well.

[fleinbach]

Dave,

The last hurricane in 2003 I believe it was Isabel did come up the bay and completely destroyed a good number of homes 20 miles south of Bel Air in Middle River. A good friend of mine who is a builder in that area has already re-built nearly a dozen. I received a few calls myself from people affected by the hurricane but at the time could not take on any new projects.

[joe]

Pete,

You can get some pricing information, for your proposal, from the attached web location. These guys are still hand carving. Mostly V carveing. Good work to look over.

www.capecraft.com (http://www.capecraft.com)

Extira would be a good material. We topcoat it with an epoxy wash which enhances the paint adhesion.

Swinging signs do take a lot of stress. So be careful with the attachment method.

Happy Routing,

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[pete]

Joe, et al.
Thanks very much for your inputs - I am not the only one to benefit from your suggestions as I think several ShopBoters want/like to do signage. One item that I would like more info on is finishes. For example, Joe, you talked about an epoxy wash - what the heck is a epoxy wash. Other folks talk about epoxy paint. As I look in my local hardware store, I don't see paint that say epoxy - except for garage floor paint. Can you guys provide brand names and maybe sources for some of these epoxy based products. In any case, this has been great information. Also, the Capecraft people have a real nice setup. Thanks, Pete

[kerrazy]

Peter,
What is the wind like in the area. You get a 1foot x 3 foot sign swinging on a couple of eye hooks and well, let's just say no good can come from it.

My suggestion for longevity and durability is use 15lb Sign foam 1" thick for each side, then sandwich in a 1/2 inch piece of crazon or MDO plywood. Use epoxy to bond these peices together. I would then have a custom frame made that would support the entire unit and have eyes welded to that frame. As a quick rule of thum the finished sign when all said and done should sell in the 5-$700.00 range. So be sure to price it accordingly. If it does break free from wind it will be you who is held liable.
For finishing use a premium exterior Acrylic Latex that has some real good elasticity to it. This will allow for expansion and contraction over teperature changes and the finish will not be effected by UV rays. If you are considering anything other than sign foam, you should bevel the walls of the letters, otherwise you leave some great shelves at the top of the letters to collect water, which will eventually cause problems.

I will be offering a quick course on sign Crafting At the jamboree if you attend please be sure to approch me and I can explain this alittle clearer.
Dale

[pete]

Dale, thanks for your input, as I know you are busy getting ready for the Jamboree - can be a high wind load at times. However, the signs that are currently hanging there have withstood the wind. They look like sandblased wood to me. I would make sure the signs are sturdy and well anchored. Pete

[joe]

Peter,

I agree with many who have posted. You've certainly been give lots of good advice.

Just a sales hint or two that work for me.

When asked to quote, I give the client three options. Each priced differently according to the degree of difficulty. The customer usually appreciates these options. They don't feel as though it's a take it or leave it.

Years ago I came to the realized putting a sample sign in potential customers hands, showing materials or colors, and technique, ets. worked. I could sew up a job faster that way. These samples ultimately ended up in my small display room. Over the years I've made enough of these, when called upon for a quote, I'm half way there. Good for honeing the techniques too.

Quoting against sandblasted signs can be difficult. Shops set up to do this kind of work can be rather competative. The wood grain texture can be beautiful and hard to accomplish with a router.

I have stated many times, on this forum, the most effecient routing technique for small signs is 2.5 V Carving. The caviet is the letterstyle and pre-painting the substrate. Although we do sandblasting, hand carving, along with routing, V Carving is fast and hard to beat.

Samples of your work sell signs.

Joe

[joe]

Gene,

Perhaps my post is too late but here goes anyway.

Threaded eye bolts in the top of HDU will work, kind of, but it's not that strait forward.

For exterior use, a bolt directly into HDU will probably fail, as the bolt will expand and contract and the HDU won't. The result is crumbling and failure of the foam. What Coastal Enterprises and Sign Foam recommends, and I have to agree, is drill a much larger hole than the bolt, pour that full of epoxy. You can tap the epoxy, or put a bolt in while the epoxy sets up.

When I first started using HDU, we treated it like wood with respect to screws. It wasn't long before I found out the screws were loosing their grip. They would expand and contract while the HDU was stable. Returning to older signs, and removing bolts, the threads were full of powder as the foam was crumbling.

Hope this helps,

Joe

[gene_marshall]

Thanks Joe,
I thinks that is the way.
Either with a wood dowel or without.

Plus I managed to find 3" signfoam.That helps alot.

BTW, I saw a blurb on the local news...
a signmaker is getting sued by a town for not using reflective paint on the lettering for street signs.
turns out that it is a federal DOT ordinance.
I don't have all the details but I heard that road signs must have either pearlesent, reflective, flouresent paint or coated with a plasticized topcoat like polycrylic.

This info came in the nick of time as we are now under contract for an order of 30 streetsigns for an upscale subdivision.

good catch huh?
Thanks for the help.
Gene

[joe]

Gene

I believe the US DOT standard is for reflective material only. Years ago you could buy the glass beads which could be poured over the paint. When dry they glowed at night with car lights. I would be very surprised if paint would meet the standards.

The major vinyl manufactures sell reflective tape. The standard is Scotchlite Reflective made by 3M.

Be careful with wood dowels in your project. I'm concerned about that.

Joe

[beacon14]

I have agreed to make a sign for my son's Boy Scout troop. I have no problem routing the design, and I plan to follow advice on other threads on this forum for the painting technique, but I'm in a bit of a quandry for the mounting. This will be a free-standing, two-sided sign, 24" high x 30" wide. My plan was to make two panels, using 15# signfoam, and bolt them to 4x4 posts imbedded in the ground, so the posts will be sandwiched between the panels. After speaking with my local supplier and the signfoam people, it seems they recommend sandwiching a layer of aluminum between two layers of foam (for each panel), to give the screws/bolts something to snug down onto. One person also recommended a frame to cover/protect the edges of the foam. The sign will be near a main road, next to a church driveway, so it's not expected to have much human contact but I can't rule it out. It will be fully exposed to the elements, including heat, cold, high humidity and occasional tropical storm-strength winds.
Any helpful hints for how to construct this sign would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
David B.

[rookie432]

This is just me but here's how I would consider this sign.

First I would substitute Extira for Signfoam. I was with you on the signfoam until you said tropical storm winds. Extira requres just as much sanding as signfoam but is heavier and doesn't require special signfoam primers. The Extira will take paint well in my opinion. Just use quality paints..3coats primer...3 coats paint...sand between each coat. Big drawback is dust in the shop, and I mean DUST.

Now mill your sign just as you would signfoam and sandwich a piece of aluminum or MDO between the front and back But make your MDO about 2 -3 inches longer than your sign. Now all you have to do is cut a stop groove in each of your treated posts and slide the MDO "tenons" of your sign down into the stop grooves. Put a decorative post cap on the top and your done.

There are several options on this but this seems the quickest and easiest to me based on your parameters.

Hope this helps

Bill

[beacon14]

question: if the MDO and posts are providing the structural support why would Extira be better than the foam? I could double up the MDO if one layer is not strong enough.

However, we are trying to get away from exposed posts - the church is being gracious enough to allow us to place the sign where we want but they are concerned about the size - having posts on each side adds 7" to the width. That's why the preference is to bolt or otherwise attach the sign directly to the posts - 2 signs with posts in between instead of 2 posts with signs in between, if you will.

I'm curious about your comment "just as much sanding as signfoam" - how much sanding does signfoam require? Or are you just referring to having to sand the primer?

Thanks for the input
David

[rookie432]

Dave,

Your right about MDO offering the structural support. My issue with signfoam here (and again this is just me) Is that wind carries debris, and signfoam doesn't hold up to many direct strikes. Also you can't rule out human contact. After having to repair a few vandalized signs I tend to steer clear of signfoam in low level applications.

Sanding, Yes signfoam requires you to break the cells on the surface to allow for the primers to fill the cells so you are still sanding your whole sign. Extira can mill a little fuzzy so you have to sand out the fuzz and sand smooth.

Now to the third issue. With Extira you can bolt right through the front of the sign and get the mounting strength you are looking for and not necessarily need a support backer. Signfoam suggests that you predrill your bolthole oversized then fill with an epoxy the re-drill to your bolt size then mount. O.K. if you do this you will still have to put a backer on both of your signs because I wouldn't reccomend leaving the centers of these signs exposed. If you bolt these to the face of your post, a 2 sided sign will have approx 3 1/2" of open space between the two signs. Definitely reccomend backers in this instance.

Finally, price. A sheet of signfoam will run between $200 and $300 depending on thickness.
1 sheet of Extira runs me about $50 for 3/4" and $65 for 1". However Extira is extremely heavy.

I'm not necessarily saying that extira is better than foam. Just saying that your environment is better suited to a more rugged substrate. (again only my opinion).

Thanks
Bill

[robtown]

One thing to look out for on sign foam is that the relieved side will want to curl eventually.

I still need to get by and check the new/now old digs...

[donchapman]

I'd use sign foam.
Attached is a photo of one of four about 4'x4' church signs on the Texas gulf coast that I made about six or seven years ago using 15# sign foam and they have all withstood the adverse weather and human elements just fine, needing just an annual mild soap and water cleaning, maybe a little touch up from nicks or scratches, and rewaxing (if the background is glossy). That's much better than some MDO signs I've made. I thinned the tops of the suppport posts to 1.5" and made the signs from 3 layers of 1.5" sign foam with voids left in the middle layer to allow the signs to be slipped over the thinned tops of the posts. Gravity and a couple of screws hold them in place. They have withstood strong winds and can be easily slipped off the posts and taken inside if a hurricane threatens. I love working with sign foam and believe it's about the best value in exterior sign material because it machines, sands, and holds paint well, is impervious to water, and relatively light but not too light, and repairs easily if I make a mistake or some sort of damage later happens. I've switched to high solids 100% acrylic latex house type paints almost exclusively and usually HVLP spray or roll on 3 or 4 coats of paint and don't prime. I got that idea from the Sign Foam literature or website some years ago and the finish appearance is good and I've never had a paint failure. Just be sure each coat is fully dry before the next. I do very little filling and sometimes leave some pinholes if the background is dark flat paint and they won't show in normal viewing. I seldom reinforce sign foam with anything other than epoxy in drilled oversized holes for hanging hardware, unless the panel is very wide, in which case I have either sandwiched a panel of MDO between two layers of sign foam or burried a piece of angled aluminum in the top and/or bottom of a long panel.
6200

[beacon14]

Rob, I've been lax about poker night - everyone's too busy to have a regular game. I'll call you in a couple of weeks when I try to get the next game together.

Don, that's a great idea and a great looking sign. But of course every answer leads to two more questions. Do you suppose since my sign is only 24 x 30 that I can use three layers of 1" foam? I only have to rout 1/4 to 1/2" deep. And can I use polyurethane adhesive ("Gorilla glue")? to bond the foam to itself or is epoxy necessary?

Many thanks, I think this is the solution I was searching for.

David

[donchapman]

An additional note regarding damage to signs:
I've made hundreds of signs, most of which are within reach of someone who might want to damage them, but I've had only one of them vandalized, and that was with a gang tag that I easily cleaned off with solvent and quickly applied a touch up recoat of flat latex background paint.

The real enemy of most of my signs has been lawn maintenance workers who inadvertently hit them with mowers, weed eaters, etc. But most damage is relatively minor and easily repaired with just touch up paint and maybe a little filler.

Once I had to repair one of my sign foam signs that was hacked by a weed eater in the hands of a landscape worker who was trying to trim away vines growing over the sign. It was a SB routed sign so I just shaved off the several damaged letters and cut some new replacement letters on my SB and glued them on using urethane glue and then sanded and repainted. Fairly simple, cost effective and looked as good as new.

Bird droppings, dirt, and slight mildew all happen over time to all signs out in the weather so they need periodic cleaning with a soft sponge and a little mild hand dishwashing soap and water.
6201
6202
6203

[robtown]

Gorilla Glue works great with Sign foam, the beauty of it is that it expands and will fill any gaps so you don't have to deal with seams or gaps, just sand it off smooth.

[donchapman]

Rob,
The total 3" of sign foam will be plenty strong for such a small sign and gorilla glue is urethane glue (the same material as the sign foam) and will glue it just fine, but it will not allow you to leave 1.5" voids for thinned posts like I used in the St Joseph church sign.
Mounting the sign is the tricky question. Do some sketches to see what looks good with the shape/design of your sign, and be carefull that the support system doesn't overwhelm or look off-balanced with the sign design. If you decide to slip the sign over thinned posts, don't thin them to less than 1.5" or they might snap off in a strong wind. I've also done lots of signs mounted between posts. Whatever looks good and works. Use epoxy, not urethane glue, in oversized drilled holes to reinforce hanger hardware. That's what I did to hold stainless steel eye bolts in this Star of Texas sign which is two 1.5" thick pieces of sign foam urethane glued back to back.
6204

[rjguinn@optonline.net]

Don,
Great looking signs!Can you recommend any sign hardware suppliers?
Thanks,
Jeff

[gene_marshall]

what do you guys think of a layer of marine ply , sandwiched between the foam?
I have one coming up shortly and was thinking along those lines.

Gene

[rookie432]

Don,

Are you connected to Raymond Chapman of Chapman signs?

Just curious, I've followed some of Ray's work and took a class with him a while back.

Bill

[donchapman]

Thanks for the compliments. I came to signmaking from a carpenter/cabinetmaker background and still struggle with the artistic side.

I'm not related to Raymond Chapman nor do I know him personally, but I have seen articles by and about him for many years in SignCraft magazine and I have the highest regard for him and his work. He is a true sign artist.


As to sign hardware suppliers, I just use and adapt what I can buy off the shelf at good local hardware stores and boating supply stores. I mainly use stainless steel eye bolts, hooks, screw-lock chain links, etc. I have a wire-feed welder and do some flat steel bending for scroll brackets, and some fabrication of sign posts/supports using various other easily welded and available channel, angle, box and tubular shapes of steel. Sometimes I'll adapt something like a commercial metal fence post with brass finial into a sign support. I'm always looking for new ideas.

Some specialty sign hardware suppliers advertise in SignCraft. I've not bought from any of them but you can probably find something about them on SignCraft's website.

I've not used marine plywood in signmaking but I would imagine it would be fine to sandwich between layers of sign foam for added strength. I've used 1/2" or 3/4" MDO instead because my sign materials supplier (Regal) carries MDO, it's exterior signmaker's grade plywood which is dimentionally stable and with a very smooth resin impregnated paper finish so I use it for some of the few vinyl signs I do, and I usually have some lying around my workshop. MDO is of course NOT MDF.

[beacon14]

Ok I'm getting much closer to making this a reality, thanks to those who responded. I'm leaning towards using 1" foam and 1" square steel tube as my frame, building up three layers with slots to slide the whole thing over the frame as Don suggests. Two more questions come up:

How deep can I rout the background out? The final sign will be 3" thick but only 1" at the frame uprights. I'm thinking I only need to rout 3/8" deep - is that deep enough to look good? (This only counts as one question.)

Also, I have to rout both sides, but there is an arrow with text in it, which of course means a right and a left. Can I rout the sign leaving the arrow area blank (in order to do both sides with the same toolpath), then rout the left and right arrows separately and glue them onto the main sign? The arrows would only be 3/8" thick (or whatever depth the main background is routed to, and it will also have routed areas within it which will leave only 1/8" thickness of foam to glue to the background. Is there an easier way to deal with the left/right issue where the bulk of the two sides are identical but one element has to be reversed? How smooth does the back of the arrow have to be to get a good glue joint with the urethane glue? (This also counts as one question - at least the way I count.)

Thanks again for all the input.

David B

[robtown]

1/4 to 3/8 should suffice. Like I said previously, the relieved side will want to curl over time if you take too much out. The fact that you are building a sandwich of HDU foam will help alleviate the curling issue.

It seems to me that you are creating a lot of extra work for yourself by doing the arrows seperate and gluing them on. Personally I'd just do two different toolpaths and let the machine do the work. Gorilla glue expands alot so if you did go that route you should be able to glue the arrow piece down without having to sand it absolutely smooth, but to do a thorough job you'd probably have squeezeout to contend with, that could get messy.

[donchapman]

David
3/8" is plenty deep, and I sometimes use even less depth if the letter stroke is particularly thin and the sign is small. More important than depth is good contrast between the lettering and background. Light letters on dark backgrounds will increase the perception of depth.

It will be a lot easier if you can mirror the arrow within the graphics program where you designed the sign. If not, then you can do the arrows the way you proposed. I cut my repair letters for my River House sign above from a thin piece of sign foam that had been used as a protection sheet in shipping a stack of thicker sign foam to my supplier. You can thickness plane or sand a piece of your 1" sign foam down to about 1/2" or 3/8" and then rout the individual letters. When you rout, use tabs or don't rout the full depth, then trim them out with a utility knife.

Your routed background surface may have some very small ridges from routing, but they are easily removed with light hand sanding. Both the sign backgroud and backs of your arrows will be relatively smooth and there will be no gaps or problem with the urethane glue holding.

Urethane glue is best for sign foam and cures from moisture, so I often spray a light water mist on pieces I am gluing. A little urethane glue goes a long way because it expands a lot, which is good for filling small appearance gaps but bad for having to trim away excess glue with sharp tools after it cures. All the more reason to try to correct problems such as your backward arrow in the CAD program instead of after machining.

[beacon14]

Well the routing is finally done. I hope to pass it off to someone else for painting, so I can't vouch for the final quality, so here it is so far.

Many thanks to all who contributed. The help was invaluable.

David B.


6205
6206

I used a 1/4" up spiral with a 1/16" offset to clear the background, then a 1/8" tapered ball end mill for the clean up pass and around the lettering and the logo, to eliminate any sharp inside corners at the base of the raised areas. A 1/16" straight bit at 1/16" less than full depth took care of the tiny details like the eagles wings.

Hopefully whoever paints it will be patient.

[pete]

David - what a great looking sign - well done.

[stickman]

David,

Nice sign.. and that one will take some time to paint. It would have been a great canidate for prepaint and masking.

Congrats,

Jay

[mikejohn]

Jay
I mask and paint all the time. However I V-carve.
If David wants to paint the whole of the raised pieces, including the edges, any words of advice?
I sometimes have to hand paint (actually Roxana does!) and it takes a long time and patience to get a good result.

David, excellent work.

.............Mike

[stickman]

Patience is key to painting the raised areas and edges.

This sign does present some interesting areas that would want to painted other colors as well as a couple "base" colors. The eagle and emblem would need to be hand painted. I would paint the blank one color, paint the background, after area clear another. Then peal the mask and hand paint the other area's, but I would just paint the face of the raised areas.

This is how I would do it, if others have other pointers or tips, I would be interested in hearing those as well.

[donchapman]

David,
Great sign!
I've painted scores of similar signs using 100% acrylic latex exterior house paints as follows:
-HVLP spray 3 or 4 thin coats of flat background darker color paint on the entire sign, including the back, by painting the back first and then setting the wet painted back atop a bed of the points of several screws screwed through a piece of plywood, then spray the edges and face, very lightly sanding between coats. A lazy susan is handy for small signs
-use a small foam brush to hand paint the lettering, graphics and border with at least 2 coats of lighter colored gloss or semigloss acrylic latex paints of your color choices

I quit priming years ago, at the suggestion of the mfgr. of SignFoam. Primer isn't needed on SignFoam for adhesion and the fairly viscous acrylic latex paint builds a smooth enough texture for all the exterior signs I've done. The darker flat background colors hide imperfections such as router bit "mowing" lines and contrast well with the semigloss or gloss lettering and graphics.
I'll fill only those pinholes that stand out after a coat or two of background paint.
A pleasing color combination is dark background to recede, light foreground to advance, and a touch of the dark background paint mixed with the light foreground paint to paint the border.
The background painting usually takes a day with a couple hours between coats, and the foreground hand painting can be done the next day.
The painting time itself is fast, so you can work on other projects while the paint drys between coats.
Do be sure that the paint is completely dry before adding the next coat, since SignFoam can dry only to the outside, not to the closed-cell inside, and the only paint failure I've ever had was from not letting it dry enough. Use a fan to speed drying.

Give your customer a baggie containing a small foam brush and small plastic film containers filled with touch up paint and it will save you a call back for minor touch ups.

I use these techniques because they are efficient and result in a very attractive end product that I can be proud of and and earn a living doing.

[donchapman]

David,
Both the River House and Star of Texas signs a few messages back in this chain were done using my above-described painting techniques

[stickman]

Don,


What are you using for an HVLP system? How much are you thinning latex paint?

Jay

[donchapman]

Jay,
Purists may sneer (and some already have) but my HVLP paint rig is an inexpensive (about $200) self-contained Campbell Hausfeld unit I bought at Home Depot several years ago and expected to replace with a better unit long before now, but it keeps getting the job done well and with minimal overspray. I'm sure more expensive units are better, but I've never used one so I have no burning desire for a better unit.
I thin most of my acrylic latex paints with a small amount of Floetol Latex Paint Conditioner according to the HVLP manual, paint mfgr. and Floetrol label directions but only as much as necessary to get it to spray well, not too thin. Depending on the paint, sometimes I don't need to thin at all. It's also important to have the right size needle and tip for the type paint or stain you spray with an HVLP rig.
Sometimes the latex paint will clog at the tip during spraying, so I just keep a wet rag handy to wipe it clear and return to spraying.
I usually have to smooth out some spots or mop up some spots of excess paint using a foam pad "brush". That's another reason I use flat background paint which is very forgiving in hiding brush strokes or texture differences.
Like learning most things, I learned how to paint well from some reading and a lot of trial and error. I use to always use sign painter quality Ronan and One Shot oil based paints, but almost everthing I paint now is with water based acrylic latex which means water clean up, less toxicity, better color retention, less mildew growth (since no linseed oil for the mildew to feed on), faster drying times, etc.

[jhicks]

Great posts and photos. For my 2 cents the lead material is Color Core. saleable at 1/2 the price of HDU, no maintainence, no warp, peel, rot, etc and nothing sticks to it even epoxy, exotic "plastic" adhesives, or Krylon paint. Grafitti proof! Good news is mechanical mounting with screws, rails, channels or on posts is robust and effective. Edge joining is a bit tricky but finger joint and/or pocket screw techniques deliver a fairly seamless joint but must drill properly undersised pilot holes. TC and Main street are 11, and 13 feet long with joints between letters in these photos.
Better news is cut, brush with a soft brass or fiber brush to clean up , spray a bit of WD40 on it for a nice clean finish and deliver. Modest sized Signs can be designed, ordered, and delivered in 1 to 2 days. Customers seem to love the mid range price and the routed look and a modest price with long life and easy maintainence.
Onsrud and kings Color Core folks give great advice on speed, feed, and bits but 12,000 rpm at 1.7" to 2.0" / sec are what we use unless its a .062 bit. Then 15,000 rpm and 1.0" / sec prevent broken bits.
A few photos fyi
6207
6208
6209

[donchapman]

Jerry,
Nice signs and your comments make me want to try routing some Color Core. The downside for me is limited color options and no one in my Austin, Texas area seems to be stocking ColorCore, so it's a special order item.

[jhicks]

Thanks Don, The El Rancho Sparta is for a small ranch just outside of Austin somewhere near Lance Armstrong and Cheryl Crows place wherever that is. You might try GE polymer Shapes. They seem more receptive to ordering it but there are other similar materials which folks wrote about in the "color core survey" thread. Call them and ask for 1 ft square samples in any color and their entire color chip sample pack. Ask for Rick Butler or Shirl at Kings Color Core and tell him I referred you and what you're doing. Very helpful folks. Once you run some, you'll love it. Two more shots in different colors FYI. The green white is 30" x 96" and the address plaque is 7" X 24"
6210
6211

[donchapman]

Jerry,
Thanks for the additional info.
I'll look for your sign next time Lance and Cheryl invite me over. (yeah, right)
I really will follow up on your color core leads.

[steve4460]

Jerry

Whats there web address or phone #

[pfulghum]

Way cool signs....I would like to try...
I tried to find the "color core survey" thread...
Can you point me to the thred you reference.

[pfulghum]

Found the Color Core survey at
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/315/9986.html?1131546012