Truck Sign

[ghostcreek]

Hello All, I am still stuck on my Truck sign idea. I have revised it 10+ times, and I think it is getting worst. Made to go on the bed rail of my truck, it is 16x40. Let me know your suggestions, I really need it. Thanks in advance\
popjpeg{42928,Truck Sign 16x40}

[ghostcreek]

Sorry, here goes;

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[myxpykalix]

If it was me I would make my sign size like i illustrate and use the extra space to do more examples of carving because the carving is going to be what attracts someone to look at the sign.

I would delete the ccl info and the p.o box info
NO ONE is going to take the time to write that down then go home and write you a letter and mail it to get info.
Maybe if you have a shop address or a cell phone number or website address would be better suited in that space.
I might even utilize the open spaces (x) for additional carving.

What might look even cooler although i'm not sure how "busy" it might look is to have a basketweave background with your lettering sticking up from surface slightly.

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[dakers]

Back in the 70's there was a guy named joeseph Selame who made many corporate logos. One was Mr. Donut logo. His philosophy was simple.
1. logos should be identifiable at 1/8'' black and white or grayscale
2. never sacrifice legibility for designs sake

comments on your design using above criteria:
A. Your logos fits well into item 1. above.
b. Contrast looks ok
c. Jack is on to something in his comments. I would also increase height of smaller panel on end.
d.some lettering too close to bottom of sign
e. more can be said but many things are subjective

Personal subjective comments:
1. would like to see sketch with logo slightly smaller and moved to the right all the way and all radius cuts to be same radius as logo. Would like to see the Ghostcreek woodworking on two lines beside logo. I think this would make the letters larger and more legible.
2. would like to see the address under phone number just to break the copy into sections.
they say people read in blocks of copy so the more it looks like a book the more people will not want to read it. use negative space to create blocks of copy.
3. I would use more colors to help create blocks of copy.
4. i like the boldness of the Ghostcreek copy.
could the phone number be same weight. Maybe even shorter as the stretched phone number does not make it more legible.
5. make the sign as large as possible. 16x40 is the size of some magnetic signs so you will have some identification value with this size but the advertising value is all dependent on the sign being legible from the distances it needs to be legible from.
6. the concept is good.
7. looks like you are going with a natural light wood background with a clear coat. I love the look of those. They are tricky. Just make sure the contrast is good.
8. not sure i would put a PO address on sign if mine. There is alot i do not know about your choices so you may need it on there.


Final Summary:
there are alot of great trade magazines for sign shops. Signs of the times, Sign builder, sign business, etc. It is worth subscribing to one of them. My Dad asked me in the 70's why i got into the sign business. he thought it was the most difficult business there was. You have to know so many different trades to be a one man shop. The customers can pull you into areas that you should not go. We did the best when we did all we can do with all our heart but we had to stop doing some things because we could not do everything will all our heart. we were just spead so thin and always under a learning curve.

I like the fact that you are seeking information.
you can only critique yourself based on what you know. When you stop seeking info you stop growing. you are in a very good position with your approach to new things. Congratulations

I probably left out a few thousand words but it is not about me.

[ghostcreek]

Thank You all for the comments, I need them and more. As a point of reference, I am a cabinet maker (30+ years), only recently venturing into signs with this amazing machine (ShopBot). As a licensed Contractor in California I am required to post my CCL# (Calif. Contractors License#) and the address is only to show I am Local. My area is very Rural, town sizes vary from 500 to 5000. Maybe just my town name (Palermo), the state is obvious. The sign size is to place on my truck bed rails, between the lumber rack. I plan to put it on both sides of truck. This sign is causing me grief, customers come to me with a vision, and i only improve on that. This is my first from design to finish. Please comment all you folks out there. Kind or unkind I desire the comments. Thanks again.

[njandpa]

Great input given above. I think that it is very good to follow all local, state, Government license laws and rules to stay above board with business practices.
With that said, if it were me I would use vinyl letters. Put the required DMV truck GVW weight, CCL# info and maybe address down low on the side of the truck side. You would meet the rules but your NICE wood sign could be kept simple and contain more design and style.
Just a thought. Nothing says two signs on your truck is wrong they may even complement each other.

[ghostcreek]

Reworked sketch, thanks for input, it keeps my mind flowing.

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[myxpykalix]

mike,
On one hand you need to keep it simple as far as not having too much text but what you have looks too empty.
I would move the ccl over to under the web address.
And i'm not impressed with the carving. From a distance its hard to tell what that is. I would pick something that shows off the quality of carving you can do.Sonmething with a lot of details. It doesn't have to be woodworking tools. I'd do something like an eagle or cherub.
Also i would increase the size of my "millwork" text to fill up the space more.
Is the saying "too many chefs in the kitchen spoil the broth" (or something like that) starting to ring true here?

[dakers]

more interesting and easier to read for me.
i like the way my eye is first drawn to the name. then to the logo to try to process the subtleness of it. then to the phone number and website then to the blue and back to name. it is like going on a journey full circle. You could change it 10 more times and dial it in a bit more but i think it has better advertising value. It is all so subjective.

I have attached one using your ideas. it is all subjective at this point. Your basic idea is good. for a small sign i may try to do the layout at bottom to increase legibility and keep radius on logo and cuts the same but i like your design.

[dakers]

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[dakers]

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[dakers]

There are so many things you can do with this design. you can do more woodworky gimmicks, more tricks, etc. Somewhere you have to stop so you do not overdo it to the point where the sign is just too distracting to do what it is intended to do.
Especially at this size on a vehicle. this is small and has to work hard to do the job.

[dakers]

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[dakers]

i would use a separate piece on bottom where moisture congregates that you can replace if needed.

[mims]

I'm racking my brain here trying to remember where I just recently saw a photo online of a pickup with a nice sign like this. It had an 'old timey' feel with a nice carving on it.

[signtist]

Michael, sorry.....there ALL butt ugly.
I think your missing the point. Your too concerned
with getting every bit of information on it.
You need to put this picture on a picture of the truck. UGLY no matter what the truck looks like.
You need to "MAKE THE TRUCK LOOK GOOD".
This all looks homemade.
The design is WAY more important than any fancy carving.
Might be time to spend a tiny amount of money
and have something designed for you, so you can be proud to show.

John
www.signgraphics1.com (http://www.signgraphics1.com)

[donchapman]

My favorite thusfar is this one you submitted earlier today.

The single dimensional graphic conveys your skill.

Your business name and contact info is easily read.

The additional details of the type of work you do is also easily read but secondary to the above info.

I'm a signmaker and have made hundreds of dimensional signs and have no doubt others will legitimately differ in their opinions, but this is mine.

To me, the abundance of negative space in the sign says you are talking to me instead of yelling.







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[donchapman]

Of course my wife disagrees with me, and she's the one with real design credentials.

[toych]

Eric, look at the "Vinyl Signs" thread.

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/315/42218.html?1243829702


D

[joe]

In my mind GHOSTCREEK is has nostalgia.


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And asks the viewer for a creative type font. These are from www.letterheadfonts.com (http://www.letterheadfonts.com).

[david_gardner]

Holy Cow Crumley!!!!!

Those look awesome!!

[mims]

thanks Darren, that's the one! I was hunting all over the place for that pic cause it got me thinking of doing my truck up too.

[ghostcreek]

Holy Cow is right. I wish to thank one and all for the input. I was thinking about some more carvings on the sign to show what we can do, but I hestiate because I don't want the sign "crowded". I prefer "just the facts".
Joe, you got me thinking (as you tend to make me do), a old-time, western flavor is needed. That fits our business.
I want to keep in mind ;
"There are so many things you can do with this design. you can do more woodworky gimmicks, more tricks, etc. Somewhere you have to stop so you do not overdo it to the point where the sign is just too distracting to do what it is intended to do.
Especially at this size on a vehicle. this is small and has to work hard to do the job."-Dick Akers.

I am going to also try Joe's company name idea.

Eric; That is the photo that got me started getting serious about this sign. Wow, a first, a sign for ME!
Thanks again to all. I'll be posting my revisions here.

[dakers]

Michael,
i was hoping Crumley would post something
I like his design in the middle with the ghosty Ghostcreek. I was thinking along those lines of having something Ghostly too but was not sure where to start. I like the flavor Joe has in the design.
by spreading the woodworking out like he did it really works because it gives contrast the the tight ghostcreek lettering. Contrast is important, different size and weight copy makes it interesting. Some thin stroke fonts and some thicker. Upperlower with caps. Slanted and straight. I just like that contrast. It is all subjective but i would ask joe to send you the file if it were my sign.
I started full time in the sign business in high school in 1967 with 2 years vacation in the army.
i have seen generations of signmen since then. Crumley would be in my top ten list. I would be somewhere in the middle of the pack but i can tell the difference between what is good and what is great. I just cant always create great.

[dakers]

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Here is one that is busy and has alot of tricks and gimmicks. it was about 30 min work but needs dialed in. I usually use google and googled clipart images for creek and came up with something i could use as a template
This is the one i found

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://pioneergrill.com/discgolf/lambs_creek_logo2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://pioneergrill.com/discgolf_index.html&usg=__OdjnhdzcJb_m0wbFu08CFPHG uqk=&h=296&w=325&sz=18&hl=en&start=8&tbnid=5NNnnK5 1cc5d9M:&tbnh=107&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcreek%26imgtype%3Dclipart%26as_st%3Dy %26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

I use corel draw. it took about 6 months to learn.
and i am still learning it. Started using it in 1995 along with xara and adobe.

As far as designs go everyone has a style. you can pretty much copy others styles and there is a ton of clipart, flourishes, fonts,
There are great designers and you can try to emulate their styles if you have time or want to learn. Signs are fun fun fun. i do not like the design i did but just wanted to show something busy. too busy for small sign on truck i think. i like joes the best.

[dakers]

oh i forgot to mention the wood background with flourishes was already to use. We keep blank templates around to make the design easier.

Here is another one i could have used for ghostcreek with some modification. it is easier than it looks. Now with all the programs and clipart available i think most people could learn to make decent designs if they apply themselves and watch what the pros are doing. Joe Crumley and Raymond Chapman are my design hero's. So all you shopbotters who want to make signs. just go for it. There are plenty of people here to help.

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[dakers]

I forgot to mention Raymond Chapman. He is another guy who can really help when he has time. He is really like a legend in the Sign World.

I want to elevate DESIGN and those who can help you.
i really do not want to elevate me. I just just borrow ideas from everyone.

[dakers]

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here is the logo i found on google images that can be used as an idea starter. i googled creek
(ghostcreek)
never been to ghostcreek. scared!

[ghostcreek]

Stunning images. Causing me to rethink abit. Seeing many options. I've been looking at Fonts, an Antique Western look. Maybe Raised letters. Thusly,

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[dakers]

Michael, let me encourage you for hanging in there and thinking about design. i usually start with an idea like the one you did above. If the small lettering will be routed in i usually then edit the design to get the proper spacing between font characters, stoke width, font selection for the minimum size router bit i can use. If i can use v-carving on small letters that helps legibility at more angles of viewing than using a straight flat bottom bit. The side walls of the routed letter can block viewing of the green paint resting on the bottom of the letter whch makes it impossible e to read at certain angles. I have made more mistakes with signs and have been so critical of what i do. I always think my work is never finished and can always be improved.
I could not make a cabinet if i had to save my life.

[powerlsc]

Dick, I just bought a shopbot buddy for sign work and am pulling out my hair trying to learn to use the partworks design program. I also have an old version of Corel draw that I could easily upgrade. For a new user do you have any suggestions how to expedite the learning process.

I have designs in my head, on paper and everywhere but the computer. Do you think going to the class up in NC would help or is this just a keep trying until you master it effort.

Anyone else have any suggestions? My bot is gathering dust while I struggle. Thanks

[myxpykalix]

Lynn,
If what you want to learn is signmaking then email joe crumley about his classes. I don't think shopbot offers a class in signmaking.
Contact a few of the other more prominent names on the signmaking column like Dick Akers, don chapman, john arnott, and many more (please forgive me if i left you out) because these guys are absolute MASTERS of their craft and check out their websites and see if anyone is close to you and see if they might offer any paid classes like joe does.
I don't make signs but if i did i would make the time and effort and expense to go learn from joe.

[bob_s]

Lynn
If you want training in Corel Draw I recommend using "lynda" training series. http://www.lynda.com/home/ViewCourses.aspx?lpk0=32
They charge $25 per month for access to what I think is the best video training available. I have taught digital photography, and I believe that this company does a fine job at a bargain price. you can see their whole program and try a bunch of different videos without any registration or commitment. They cover everything, but graphics programs are their strength. If you get to know the graphics program first, when you get some sign training from someone like Joe I believe you will learn a lot more.

[joe]

Thanks everone for the nice complements.

Bob is spot on with www.lynda.com (http://www.lynda.com) I think they're the easiest way to learn graphics programs.

It should be made clear, Parts Works, ArtCam and the likes are not design programs. Although they include a design package, they do not approach the levels of Corel, Illustrator, Flexisign and Photoshop.

Although I don't use Corel, it's probably the cheapest and best package on the market. I'm not suggesting everyone needs a professional illustrator program. Many on this forum may do very well with the smaller "PartWorks" type program. That's how I started, only it was "Rams".

Happy Routing

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[powerlsc]

Jack, Thanks for the input. I switched careers after 20 years from illustrating educational kids books and media to signmaking much like Michael has.
I flew to Banff, Canada to Larry Whan's sign school then to Mike Bloomquist's school in Wisconsin. Both were amazing teachers and a wealth of information.

Unfortuneatly Larry carves in wood only due to restrictions in Banff and Mike's course doesn't cover computer design.

Up until now I have designed a sign, used a plotter for vinyl lettering and taken the "negative" letter space as a pattern to hand carve all my lettering. Quite a dinosaur, yes?

When I found the shopbot I was pumped, just didn't realize I'd get so bogged down with the software learning curve. I'd like to take any sign class and appreciate the point to Joe's. Follow his work as well as Ray's.

Bob, I'm planning to jump right on the "lynda" site. Googled several but would rather have a recommendation from the sign guys. Appreciate the support.

[dakers]

Lynn,
Corel has some free training too.
http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite/us/en/Content/1152796556718

The lynda site is a wonderful resource.

If i was to recommend a program for someone starting it would be Adobe Illustrator. We have three other designers who use Illustrator here. They say Corel is slower working with large bitmap files. They use all the Adobe Products and it is easier for them to work with files that are ftp'd to us as most graphics designers use Adobe in our area. I usually give them eps or pdf files from Corel so they can work with them in the router, Printer rip, and plotter programs. We use Gerber for our sign program for printing on the Gerber Edge Printer.

Corel can do alot for such an economical program and someone here needed to learn it. I have used illustrator to compare speed on large bitmap files and it is true. Adobe is the Seabiscuit

If you have time google "corel vs illustrator" for a more detailed discussion from the graphics community.

[bob_s]

I certainly agree about Illustrator & photoshop. I have them and use them, but they are expensive programs. You can buy them used however - legally - I am not condoning bootleg software. As opposed to many CNC programs Adobe has a "legal and Approved" way to transfer ownership. http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/152/tn_15281.html
So, if the seller does the first part you can get a legal, upgradeable, and registered version of a slightly out of date Adobe product at a very reasonable price.
Almost all of the current Adobe products have the same interface, therefore the learning time can be leveraged over several products.

[dakers]

Bob, i went to your website and clicked stock illustrations. You have some really original work there.

[bob_s]

Thanks
My wife is the illustrator/ painter, my past profession was advertising photography. I am overdue on building her painting web site. However I am finally getting to building her "mega closet" this week so I'm not in the doghouse permanently! I just waited to get my shopbot (2 years), so I could do it right.

[ghostcreek]

I have come to realize there are two types of folks here (well three if you combine the two), Really great designers and the ones like me, that understand wood and the mechanics of carving. I see I really need to educate myself with design, If I want to get past the basic stage. Thanks to all for excellent tips. What a great tool this forum is.

[ghostcreek]

Last version (maybe),
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[bob_s]

Michael;
a good source to start at is http://www.jimkrausedesign.com/

in particular his book "Design Basics index"
you can see some excerpts on his web site if you follow the links.

There are as many opinions about the best way to design something as there are viewers. A couple of basic books will give you a quicker start to developing your own style, and a good idea of what the public is seeing from some experienced designers. I think that the most important part is learning 'why' things work: how to direct the viewer around the piece, how to accentuate the important parts ... It takes some studying for most of us, and then there is the lucky few for who have a natural sense of what works well!

[dakers]

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michael if you can spread your letter characters out it will read better. also if you have raised letters beware that they will look like a streak of color from angles as the returns of the letter will blend with the top of letters if the returns are painted the same colors. you would need extra spacing between font characters in that case. i was just playing around. i do not think the word ghostcreek is large enough so this is a case where legibility is sacrificed for design. not good.

[dakers]

I am amazed sometimes how many ways there are to do things. Too bad i am never satisfied with what i do.
always room for improvement
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[myxpykalix]

This is like having a staff of several design experts on call...every revision seems to be better then the last.
However I guess i need to develop my "eye" to be able to envision how some of these designs would translate to a solid color wood and then the most important aspect is the painting of the several different elements are what make it stand out.
Dick you really should think about going into the signmaking business..............lol

[dakers]

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[dakers]

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i think the design possibilities, material combinations, are endless. This is just a sampling of a variation on a theme.
As far as design and legibility goes i think the middle one that Joe Crumley did is just about impossible to improve on. His middle design can be executed so many ways and it had design and legibility. not just pretty. Then you go beyond the design to the woodworkers mind and have an endless choice there too. John and others had some comments above about putting graphics on the truck too. That is a great idea, especially if you need alot of advertising value rather than just identification value. A 1'' letter does not read very far. Michael i would probably scale your truck sign to real world sizes and see how large the lettering will be also. It is like doing a survey. 1. you want a routed sign on truck bed. 2. what size will it be? 3. Will the lettering be large enough for advertising value or just identification value only. 4. Do i need to use other areas of the truck also to meet your expectaions of what vehicle advertising , identification will do for you. If i do then i can balance the message between the routed sign and the other graphics.
it is all about your budget and expectaions.
Design is an evolutionary process where the customer and the designer dial in what is needed. Sometimes something has to be compromised. It ia hard to satisfy every element needed sometimes.
Sometimes you just want a sign, just a sign then move on to thinking about other things that have more priority. There are so many important and urgent things, important and not urgent things, things that are not important nor urgent, urgent and not important things it is a wonder that i get anything done. I have to go brush my teeth i think.

[dakers]

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[ghostcreek]

Made an plywood sample, airbrushed letters to get a feel for size. I don't know if it's important or urgent, one must bear in mind this is on 2 "working trucks", they haul, Lumber to portable tools and sometimes a Goat. The stepped end of the sign was my attempt to allow some access from the sides of the truck. Gosh, those designs would be great printed in color. Thanks again.

[dakers]

Gosh Michael you have a goat? Now i am jealous. I heard a guy on the radio say everyone should have a goat in their bathroom to harvest the milk, make cheese. He said it would be healthy food.

I know the designs done with teak and a light wood with inlays would be hard to do. And the top clear coat would have to be redone occasionly for exterior. It is not a practical design for a truck. Like you said better off printed but it would look good with clear coated wood inlays for awhile. Maybe i will do one with a goat. GoatCreek?

[ghostcreek]

Gosh, got a small herd of Goats. Make Cheese, but most Important, they clear the grass & brush. I hate weed wacking. Live here on 10 acres, Fire country. The Fire season is almost here, (end of June). Goats pay for themselves! The inlay idea has sparked me again. You got me looking througn the lumber racks. Red Cedar, Doug. Fir, Cherry, Mahogany, Maple, Red Oak & Redwood. Lets see what combo I can put togeather....

[ghostcreek]

Inlays, I see it now. Quite a cut-out, but looks like a challenge.

[dakers]

You have all that wood plus goats.
We have tooth picks and one gold fish that died. Grankids were out of town and we overfed the fish.

[dakers]

Michael, Your first design is sufficient. i always make things too complicated. I am an options person who never comes to solutions. just keep thinking of more options except when i met my wife. I knew she was the one.

[joe]

Michael,

There hasn't been much discussion about materials, panel shapes or colors.

Here's a suggestion. How about a DriftWood apprarance. This would go with the GhostCreek title. A light weathered gray would work well with cleanly finished Mahagony or Cypress letters. They could be pocketed. If these were finished in a bright red mahagony, they'd look good against the gray weathered backgound.

For the smaller copy, a Mahagony V carved banner could be pocketed.

When coming up with concepts or designs, I often ask myself what would it look like if Walt Disney was doing it, or how would Norman Rockwell view it.

When it's your time to get up to bat, it's best to try for a homerun. This is one where you could take it out of the park.

Happy routing
Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[ghostcreek]

Thanks Joe, I thought I had a simple idea for my work trucks. I have gotten so many great ideas and suggestions, I feel lost. I am taking a step back, and trying to:
1) Advertise my business,
2) Show off my work,
3) Make a sign I would be proud of.
I wonder if a sign can be "too fancy" for my target audience. When I get a job for a local business sign, the comment I hear most often, I want it to look like it did in the 1800's! Made alot of Red Cedar & Redwood signs for customers that have the pocketed area weathered, then the letters/logo a bright color. Anyway, I am looking for a modern/nostalgia feel to it. Am I off base here? I really want to succeed here.
Thanks again to all the suggestions.
Michael

[dakers]

Michael, i think the middle design Joe did answers all you said you want for your target. it is a good one.

[ghostcreek]

Thanks Dick,
But I am also in love with some of the designs you showed, the decision on which direction to lean is killing me!

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[rb99]

The blue creek might be hard to render and look really good...

RB

[powerlsc]

Michael,

Just pick one and us it as a learning tool. Nice thing about signs is they are easily changed and updated as you grow. Point is to get your sign out there and let it do its work.

I think you are probably putting a lot of pressure on yourself to produce the "perfect" sign. I'm sure if you polled everyone here they'd tell you it's easier to come up with tons of ideas for a client than for yourself.

Just dive in with one Of Dick's terrific ideas and you'll get over your initial design hump.

Thanks everyone for your design software info. I'm waiting for a CD in the mail now, have subscibed to "lynda" tutorials and am moving forward. Appreciate the input.

Found out I can get a substantial discount on software as a teacher or student.