Let me ask an honest question

[redbird]

I'm looking to offer design / prgramming services to cabinetmakers / woodworkers who have cncs. I own KCDw and Enroute wood. I can design the job, provide cutlists and all that KCDw does, plus provide the programs to cut the job. The question I have - does anyone think this venture would be viable? Is there a big enough market of folks out there who would need my services? Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks,
John

[harryball]

You're talking about a service to design cabinets and provide the cut files to bot owners... sort of like the VectorArt3D?

I could be wrong, but I don't think you'd get a lot of business from serious cabinet shops or those wanting to make serious cabinet shops. The job tweaking that goes on for custom cabinets might be a problem.

For shops like me... I doubt I'd ever have enough project volume to make it worth your while. I do plan to completely redo our kitchen cabinets... I might pay someone to create the files for me. But that'd pretty much be a one time deal. I have Cabinet Parts Pro and have made a few entertainment centers with it... I'd probably be inclined to buy that before going with a service just for the perceived flexibility.

That does leave a large number of other shops out there doing things with different purpose. You may have a company doing theater rooms that might sub-contract all their cabinets while they did the part they enjoy. Then again... what happens when specs change and those cabinets need to be 46" instead of 48". Even if you offered adjustments for free, the time delay might be an problem for your customers. I don't know if anyone would want to build their business on that model.

Probably not what you wanted to hear, but that's just my opinion.

Robert

[redbird]

Robert,
Thanks for your reply. What you are saying could very well be the case; however, I suspect there is a market of cabient makers out there who would rather spend their time in the shop making the product than on a computer doing design work and/or postprocessing. I have a decent amount of experience in the cabinet business, and I know that the hard part is not making the cabinets, it's getting the dang things designed right and cut out right.

Ideally how my service would work, I would get the dimensions of the kitchen or job, then I would design the cabinets. If the design looked fine, then I would supply the cabinet maker with cutlists, estimate, etc... plus if they have a cnc, I could provide the programs to cut out the parts on their shopbots. I have a good amount of experience on cnc in all phases, so I wouldn't be out of touch with the actual issues that arise when cutting a job. The two programs I mainly mainly use are KCDw and Enroute Wood, which provides nested dxf files and g-code via auto toolpathing. With these two programs setup right there is not too much risk of error.

Just curious...do you what do you guys typically use to get your code for your cabinets? I started out with BobCad/Cam, which is a good little program, but not for large jobs.

Thanks,
John

[harryball]

I specifically build bat houses and other bat related products. I also take local jobs for odd things as time permits (I'm cutting a template for anchor bolts on a generator pad) and I do a good deal of remodeling on my own home.

I use Cabinet Parts Pro for cabinetty stuff. I use VCarve Pro for almost everything else including cutting MDF doors if I need any.

I'm not your target market though again I'll say I'd be intrigued enough to ask when it comes time to redo my kitchen. I have the cabinets all drawn and sized and my current plan is to create them a section at the time using whatever tools I have a hand. The prospect of no design time, having a rendering and getting an entire set of cut files at one time and running them does have my attention.

I don't know if there are enough other people are out there in a similar position to have any business impact for you.

Robert

[cjohnson]

John,
If you look at the Shopbot market, you may find that there are some who would like to purchase cut files if they could run it on their existing software like Shopbot, Parts Wizzard, and CabinetPartsPro. If you had color pictures, plans, and cut files you may very well create a market. These individuals will want to see what it looks like before they buy it and they will want more than a cnc drawing. Especially if you start with items such as bookcases, basic cabinets, entertaiment centers, and so on. You would have to rely on a continual stream of new customers because your customer base will get more knowledgable of their CNC machine and will start to produce their own creations. Maybe you could partner up with CabinetsPartsPro Ryan Patterson, VCarvePro, or other software vendors and offer plans in addition to their software.

Why don't you do a sample bookcase and post here on the forum for free to demo out what you are capable of?

Beware, the newbies are going to wear you out with information such as material type, bit type, speeds and feeds, where to buy hardware, and things such as that. However, if you are up for the challenge, I say go for it.

Good Luck!

Cj

[redbird]

Robert: You may be right in that the shopbot users are not my target market. But I do have the understanding that there are folks out there who build cabinets commerically with Shopbots. For software, one has to invest quite a bit of money to get the design, plus postprocessing function, so I'm guessing not everyone wants to plunk down 12,500 for cabinet software. But you may be right...there may not be enough cabinetmakers who use shopbots. Also, if you are interested in taking a look at what I can do for your kitchen, shoot me an email with a rough drawing of the room you are doing. What I can do for you sure would beat drawing it in a CAD program, I promise ya.

Craig: Thanks for your response and encouraging words. You have some good ideas. I think I will work up an entertainment center, or a set of cabinets (cabinets are where I would expect repeat business) and post some images on here.

Thanks guys

[cjohnson]

John,
I suggested a bookcase because i need to make one but just haven't got around to doing it. Does that make me a bad person?


CabinetPartsPro, the software that Robert and I referred to, only cost 250.00 for the professional version. By far, the best deal out there and would be a great addition to your collection. Search it on this forum to learn more about it or go to the website.

Also, are you wanting to generate shopbot code? Or are you just wanting to make up engineering drawings? In my opinion, the real value in your offering is delivering the plans in the code for whatever software your client has. In other words, doors saved in VCarvePro (or CabinetPartsPro) format and ready to generate code.

Most of your newbie customers will not have the fancy ($2000.00 on up) software. My spouse had a cow when I spent 250.00 on CabinetPartsPro. (She doesn't know about the fein and milwaukee yet but thats my problem.)


I don't know if your idea will be a cash cow because a lot of people are very helpful on this forum and sometimes bale us newbies out when we have a problem designing up something and its usually free. However, it looks like the 3d market is cooking right along so there again it may work.

A while back one of the regular members (Marshall i think) was going to offer all of their designs on cd but I dont know where that is today. You may get some competition from those who don't mind helping out others for free. Since I have a regular job, I would fall into that catagory. However, right now, I don't have a lot of knowledge to offer, just hopefully non-bias opinions. When I was a volunteer fireman in Fayette County many moons ago, some of the paid firemen saw us volunteers as a threat to their livelyhood and their future pay. They had a point but I still volunteered. Very rewarding to give your time with nothing expected in return. Very rewarding.

Right now, my sister wants me to rewire her rental house for free. Not very rewarding. I guess there is a limit to the free thing.

Again, good luck and I look forward to seeing your "Bookcase" or whatever you choose to post. Should be interesting.

cj

[dray]

Heya John.. I would be interested. I use kcdw but Im not willing to pay the huge price to upgrade for shopbot. But designing cabinets is a rough deal sometimes I'll spend up to 8 hours designing and not get the job..

Id be interrested in designing the cab then sending out to u for the code to cut it

[myxpykalix]

I actually think it's a viable idea. I admit i've never cut cabinets out yet but if someone contacted me and wanted me to make a set of cabinets and i went and measured contacted you to make the cut files, there are probably things that i may not, because of my experience, take into account that you might. So if the service was priced right I could see how it might allow me to offer a service that before i couldn't. Like suggested maybe somewhere post a file to see what you can do, then come up with some pricing guidelines so we could see if it would be viable for us. Just because someone can afford to buy expensive software doesn't mean they know how to use it right off and i'd rather deal with an expert. I can envision where you may have to do some "phone support" so you may have to account for some of that. But i'd move forward.

[richards]

John,
Offering a software service is a great idea - if you can find exactly the right niche market. I have and use Ryan's Cabinet Parts Pro. It's a great program and easily handles cabinet making; BUT, I have a distinct idea of exactly how a base cabinet should be made (exactly 768mm tall, shelf pin holes exactly 37mm from the front edge of the edge banding material, first shelf hole exactly 46.5mm from the bottom edge of the cabinet, self-pin holes spaced exactly 32mm vertically, shelf pin holes space on 32mm centers horizontally - with exact hole placement dependent on the drawer hardware being used). Anyway, you get the idea. The difference in what I would like to have and what I can afford is tremendous. But the difference in what Ryan has already built and what I need is very small. In fact, I normally tweak Ryan's files just a little to get exactly what I want. It only takes a few minutes.

It would seem that building up a library of standard parts (base cabinet, no drawers; base cabinet 1-drawer, 1-shelf; base cabinet, three drawers - style A; base cabinet, three drawers - style B; base cabinet, three drawers - style C; etc.). The list would be huge, but then one of use shopbotters could just send you a list of cabinets that we wanted to cut, along with exact dimensions, and receive back the necessary cut files that have been totally optimized for our machine. That would be a great service, but could you offer it at a price that earned you an income while it still allowed each of use to earn an income?

[thewoodcrafter]

I sort of got John Bell started in the ShopBot direction.
I found one of his posts on another forum.
I need code generated for my shopbot to cut cabinets because I can't pay the $12,500 for KCDW with the post.
I am going to use him for some projects so I don't have to spend that money for the software.
I have a 9649PRT but don't cut cabinets with it because of the software. I now use E-Cabinets and send the file out to a shop with a Thermwood. This is getting expensive. So John's service will be useful to me.

[redbird]

Roger,
Just received the updated version of e-cabinets this evening and will be looking your file over. I will call or email with more details shortly.
Thanks,
John

[djmcnutt]

John,

I would be interested also, you can email me with some details of how you would charge for this service. mcnutt@verizon.net (mailto:mcnutt@verizon.net)

David

[redbird]

Craig-hey I will see what I can do about that bookcase
I should be able to post some images on here pretty quickly so folks can get an idea of what I’m offering. I do appreciate your support and advice. I don’t plan on doing like Marshall and disappearing. What I hope to do is find a few good customers and do a really good job for each one, and I think everything else will fall into place.

Danny-If you already use KCDW, then that makes things even easier. If you get a chance, send me an email: samloren@windstream.net (mailto:samloren@windstream.net)

Jack-I understand your concern about the work quality. Soon, as I told Craig, I will have some images to show. But I know that cabinets are more than the cool 3-d images. There are a lot of details and things that can go awry in the process. And I think that is actually my strong suit, considering my experience in the industry. Please post or email if you have any other questions.

Mike-I think I understand what you are talking about. I take it this Cabinet Parts Plus does not do post files? Either way, if it is feasible I can buy the program and provide post files easily. Email or post with any more questions, please.


David, Thanks for your interest. I’ll email you in a minute.

Thank all who have posted here for you interest, comments, encouraging or not. Anyone who has any more questions please email me or post.

[myxpykalix]

John,
Reading my post then your post:
"Just because someone can afford to buy expensive software doesn't mean they know how to use it right off and i'd rather deal with an expert."
You might have misinterpreted my statement there. I didn't mean to imply you didn't know how to use it, i was trying to say someone like me may not know how to use a big complicated program right off and it would be better to rely on someone like you with experience.
I reread my statement back and it didn't quite come out right but i hope you get the gist of it now. Like the grandkids say..."it's all good dude"!

[redbird]

Jack,
Oh, I got ya. Hey, "it's all good"