Router lifespan

[gerard]

having gotten a shopbotomy the first time I came accross CNC routing and the shopbot, I have been luring for years within the various forums, watching the new devlopments take place on variious machines. in the process, I have learned alot about the machine, and have decided to take the plunge on a new one for myself.
my question at this time is for those of you who use a router as opposed to a spindle, obviously, the lifespan is less, but I would like to get an idea ofwhat sort of life I an expect from the router, what tactics will accelerate the wear, and what techniques will help prolong the life.
basically, how many hours can you get out of your router, doing what you normally do, how quickly you can trash it by treating it like a spindle and what considerations need to be made for the router.

[wooddr]

Gerard,

I have been using my Porter Cable for about two and one half years. I don't use mine for production type work, and I have yet to have a problem with it. I bought two of them, just so I could have a spare when the bearings do go bad.
I don't know how they would hold up under daily use running 4 to 8 hours per day. I would estimate mine gets maybe 6 to 12 hours per week over the last two and a half years. I do most of my cutting in two to three passes for 3/4 inch sheet goods, and the Porter Cable runs just fine.

Hope this helps,

Dirk

[beacon14]

I also ran a PC router for a couple of years without a problem, until I started "treating it like a spindle" and cutting full many sheets in a single pass. I've been replacing the bearings every 8 weeks or so, hopefully for the last time as my spindle is waiting to be installed.

[joe]

It depends to some extent on your nerves.

Aside for the fact that a spindle has less run out, runs hours more than a router with no bearing propblem, the RPM speed can be adjusted while routing, won't burn your shop down, and is so quiet you probably won't know it running, there's no reason at all to buy one.

j
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[joe]

It depends on some extent on your nerves.

Aside for the fact that a spindle has less run out, runs hours more than a router with no bearing propblem, the RPM speed can be adjusted while routing, won't burn your shop down, and is so quiet you probably won't know it running, there's no good reason to at all to buy one. After all, hearing aids are getting cheaper all the time.

j
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[drodda]

I have had my router running 8 hours a day for about two years now and it is still working like a horse. The noise is the only complaint that I have as I get tired of wearing hearing protection all the time in the shop.

Spindle is on my wish list.

[myxpykalix]

I can't justify 3K or more for a spindle for part time work/hobby although there were many a late night i'd like to work but any setting higher than 10k and she screams like you're beating a redheaded stepchild. And i'm getting tired of my ears sweating.

[gene]

Hi Gerald
The question is how much do you like your ears ?I know the spindles are higher in the price aspect and if you plan on late night work your neighbors might be willing to help with you purchasing the spindle.
I dont think you would regret the spindle option.

[gerard]

first, I would like to thank everyone for such quick input to my question, from previous experience in "forums" I can see that it will stray to other topics quickly.
its not a matter of being opposed to the many benifits of a spindle, (some more obvious than others) as much as it is a matter of short term economics. Having been in many small businesses through the years, I have come to appreciate the learning curve that always manages to prove that I knew far less than I thought I did when I decided to enter the business/hobby. Although I could bore you with experiences in lawn maintenance, powerwashing, sealcoating, construction, embroidery, laser engraving, greenhouse business, photography and so much more, Ill try to stick with my current obsession, and how my question relates.
in using any new tool in the beginning "stupid" mistakes take place, instruction manuals, warning labels, and advice from more seasoned users while all valuable are never as good as experience, both good and bad, I would imagine, within the learning curve, I will damage a router/spindle from something I didnt consider to be important enough before it happened.
the tool snob in me begs for a spindle, its always great to have the best but as a newbie, it makes more sense to go with the router as I get used to the capabilities

[donchapman]

On the other hand, ear plugs are a lot less expensive than a spindle. That said, I'd love to have a spindle but my almost 8 year old PC just keeps going, and going, etc. I replaced the bearings and brushes after about 5 years so I'm still on just my second set and it was an easy couple of hours to replace.

[joe]

I agree with Gene however Shopboters are a different type of CNC cat and are working up to a spindle. I'm suspecious most are part timers or hobby types. While there are some production shops, for the most part that's probably not the main stay.

If Santa was realy doing his job right, every SBer would come down the stairs on Christmas morning, and there would be a medium sized box with, bright red bow with his name on it. Surprise, Surprise, a shiney bright 15lb. spindle. It could happen! Dreams can come true.

I used porter cables for years on my first CNC. I'll tell you for sure, routers are not MANUFACTURED to run 8 hours a day. PERIOD. I've burned several up. One absolutely came apart. I'm talking about parts flying around the room. Once the bearing went, the armature was fried. I was amazed that anything could exit out of the aluminum router housing.

But if youre just cutting raindeer for the mother-in-law, or something like that, a good old router will last for years. By keeping a close ear for bearing squeeks, and doing regular maintenance they'll do ok.

Use ear protection! Routers will take your hearing away from you, perminently. I know because, each night I retire with constant ringing.

Do your ears ring too?

[gerard]

Joe, rock concerts, and backpack blowers coupled with pretending to be 18 for 15 years longer than I had the right to took its toll on my hearing, as I have gotten older, I have developed a respect and passion for personal protective equipment, from gloves, to safety glasses, and yes, both ear plugs and muffs. along with no dangling jewelry, and buttoned long sleeve shirts. as well as the 1/2 face respirator, my ears dont ring at night, but I do have more than my share of hearing loss as a result of past carelessness.

Your probably right about the hobby aspect, afterall, if you look at the pricing of the shopbot, it truely is an affordable machine and quality made, which is what attracted me to it, for about 12 minutes, I actually considered a compucarve, afterwhich I came back to the trusty shopbot page, the benchtop machine caught my eye, and I realised that a 38x96 was within my range, I dont have contracts line up out the door that will pay for it, but I do have a nice size shop that it will be at home in, as well as a couple hours every night that I can go and express my creativity.
from what Ive seen, there are a ton of ways to earn a reasonable return with these machines, and Im sure I will be able to do the same, while keeping myself amused, and my family and friends in gifts.

what I find most impressive about the shopbot is that it is being used in more commercial settings, and holds up as well as it does given the price.

[ljdm]

I too considered the Compucarve first. And bought it. And learned it wouldn't cut it, barely even for main hobby. Then bought a Shopbot. Next comes the spindle, when finances, and demand dictate. You don't have to run it 8hrs a day, every day, to make a living, as a one man shop. When I get to hiring help, probably second Bot. Still more cost effective than a 100k machine Tool nut in me wants the spindle NOW. But in the meantime, will make do, router does the job. My 2 cents....

[henrik_o]

quote:I would imagine, within the learning curve, I will damage a router/spindle from something I didnt consider to be important enough before it happened.

I dunno, but our 5hp Colombo is built like a tank. You'd have to come up with some serious abuse to actually damage the unit as such. I peeked around inside it a bit when I changed the fan. The weak link seems to be the ceramic bearings, at least that's what I hear (here and elsewhere). Need to warm that puppy up every morning, but that quickly becomes routine -- put on coffee as my employees come in, start warm up program, go have a cup, when I'm back it's all set.

I'm still fairly new to this, but one of the good things about having a spindle (at least the more powerful ones) is that I know that almost whatever I come up with the machining tool (i.e the spindle) is going to take it without complaints. That means I can concentrate on more pleasant matters, or in the case of problems at least I don't have to worry about that part.

That said, we're a production shop, and it is of course very different if you're just starting out and don't really know what you'll be making with the 'bot etc. We could never do what we do with a router, but if I bought a machine just for myself I would probably start with a router.

[Brady Watson]

FYI - My spindle has been running for the past 3 days nearly non-stop. Since Friday afternoon, it has run overnight cutting a large 3D format part with very fine detail. Temps are stable and consistent at 117° F, which is well within operating range and since it's a 3D file, duty cycle doesn't really enter into the picture since there is little load on the spindle. There is absolutely no way that I could do what I do with a homeowner grade router. They are great if you are just getting going and on a low budget, but not suitable for a pro who needs to really rely on a tool to be 'Super Duty'. My customers need to rely on me to come thru at the drop of a hat sometimes & I need to rely on my tool to be tip top when I need it.

My 5HP Colombo is 6yrs old now & I replaced bearings (orig. were NOT ceramic BTW) about 6 months ago with ceramic bearings...which are a wee bit noisier, but made for going the distance. The most important thing on the CNC is the cutter & powerplant that drives it, IMHO.

-B

[bleeth]

OK-Let's take this to what really counts. It has nothing to do with the noise. A spindle runs a lot quieter than a router AS LONG AS YOU AREN'T CUTTING MUCH. If you are plowing into a hunk of wood, plywood, mdf, particle board, or aluminum with as much speed and depth as your SB frame and software can handle the sound you hear will be the bit cutting material and your vacuum and dust collector sucking air. If you are trying to make a living by producing as many inches per second as smooth as possible as you can while running your tool than there is no option except getting a spindle. If you are using your tool as a pleasure device without need for a profit motive than you may not need one.
Try an analogy: If you are going to race cars for a living you can't make much money off a go-kart or even a rebuilt junker at the local short track, but go-karts and short tracks are a heck of a lot of fun. I've been watching this debate for years now and I certainly understand questions from those who are new to cnc trying to determine how much it takes to get into it without overspending, but once you have spent time researching the forum and assuming you are an experienced woodworker you would have no trouble deciding to invest in the spindle if you can afford it just as you would buy the dual compound slide chopsaw rather than a single side bevel tool to install crown molding for a living.
As opposed to, for another example, chasing a little white ball around umpteen acres with a stick, I'd rather "play" with my Shopbot anytime. Mine needs to earn it's own way though and I can tell you from that point of view I bless the day I decided to go with the spindle and class A software from day 1.

[myxpykalix]

One of my pet peeves with this arguement (spindle v router) is that yor shop will only be as quiet as your loudest tool. At the lower speeds my router is not the loudest tool, my dust collector is. So for me it isn't really a debate between the two when you come to noise levels. Someone needs to come up with a Maxwell Smart inspired "Cone of Silence" then i'll be happy (of course his never worked either!).

[joe]

Mr. Rosenbleeth,
"It has nothing to do with the noise."

I couldn't disagree more. Speak for yourself!

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[jsfrost]

Even with dust collector screaming, the router noise was dominant in my shop. With a spindle, I can actually hear the wood and bit telling me how the cut is going. Once I understand the language, I will be cutting better parts. With a PC, that feedback was missing.

No doubt, a spindle is a better tool. But IMHO, with limited funds a router is a good choice.

[rhfurniture]

I have just moved from a 2hp Bosch router to a 3hp spindle, and yes, the spindle gives me much more control, power, and better cut quality. But I miss the noise of the router telling me how much power was being drawn, when the cutter was blunting etc. I have put a large amp meter on the outside of the control box to do the same thing, but it only works if I look at it.
R.

[Brady Watson]

Ralph,
You can gauge the sharpness of your bit by your edge quality. If it begins to suffer or burn, then switch it out.

I totally get what you are saying about being able to use the 'ear meter' to tell what is going on...the problem with the PC is that it bogs down and this can affect your overall quality depending on what you are cutting. If you cut plastics, consistent RPM is an absolute must on some varieties.

-B

[gerard]

so from what I have been able to gather from the above posts, I think the following decisions are what I will put into play, first and formost, I will get a 48x96 machine, as it appears the versaitility ot offers over the smaller machines far outweigh the additional cost.
second, to start out, I will go with the router, and as budget permits, I will move towards the spindle, its quite possible however that the noise factor might push that decision faster than budget alone.
As this is a hobby business, I have the luxury of dedicating more of my earnings back into the hobby without compromising my wallet as much, ultimately, I forsee moving my dust collector into an outside building, along with my compressor, and a few other items that make the shop less pleasurable than it should be, at that point, the spindle will make even more sense for me.
software is another issue entirely, and although I will be starting out with entry level, I anticipate upgrading as I can appreciate the need/benifit

[Brady Watson]

Gerard,
You will be fine with a router to start out with & you can always upgrade to a spindle at a later date. If your primary concern is noise that you will hear, then a pair of these will make your ears happy regardless of the tool you run:


6548

As others have pointed out, cutting certain materials with certain bits, generates a decent amount of noise no matter what. If you have neighbors that are close or the Bot in your basement, then a spindle will eliminate the router's load cooling fan whine that is there all the time. A spindle is nearly silent when not cutting at 13000 RPM. If you do have neighbors close by or plan to put it in your basement or garage, you will want to think about sound insulation to keep the inner workings of your shop discreet.

-B

[gerard]

my shop is a 1500 Sq foot building, 200 feet from both my house, as well as any of my neighbors, its insulated with 2 inches of foam, 8 inches of fberglass, and 2 layers of radient barrier, not only does it stay above freezing in the winter it seems to keep the sound in as well,at least no one has ever complained about the planer. as much as I dislike earplugs, I dislike the ringing ears more, so Im used to looking out for my self first

[joe]

Gerald,

A small shop is more noisy. I have a friend who has a router unit set up a in a double door garage. The noise is absolutely deafening.

You can use sound deading devices, baffels, ear phone & plugs but at the end of the day, it robs a person of energy..

We've moved our vacumm pickup out side. Although ours is perminent, it could easily be rolled in and out each day. Hose is cheap. It's advisable to put a ground wire inside the legnth of the hose to remove static electricity.

When cutting Trupan, PVC, EPS, DiBond, and HDU there's very little noise useing spindle. 3D carveing in HDU is almost silent. The really noisy stuff is flat sheets stock. I found it necessary to reach for the ear phone when cutting these.

I hear ringing, hope it's the phone!

[bleeth]

Joe: I always speak for myself and would certainly not presume to speak for a seasoned professional such as yourself. Note that I listed the materials that my own experience has led me to conclude that aggresive cutting will create a lot of noise from the bit contacting the material and my point was that wether you are using a router or a spindle such cutting combined with the dust vac and a hold down vac will create a lot of noise. My shop has a 16 foot ceiling and is a 25oo sq ft concrete space. The bot is closer to the back than the front and my office is in front. When drilling or making shallow passes the loudest noise is from the auxiliary equipment but I can still tell the moment the bit hits the material; when cutting through the bit noise drowns the rest out and I can tell from my office if it is cutting smoothly. If the door is open to the shop I cannot hear a normal conversation on the phone. Hence, since a fully set up machine will be making a lot of noise when cutting aggresively through the materials mentioned, TO ME, it's not about the noise, but rather the cut accuracy, smoothness, and speed.

Dave

And by the way-when did I become "Mr. Rosenbleeth"? I think that was my grandfather.
Are you trying to tell me I'm getting old?

[myxpykalix]

Dave, go look in the mirror and your answer should be self evident! lol. I think my house is haunted because everytime i pass a mirror I see my grandfather, and he was an OLD man.

Regarding router noise...I recall in one of our audio recording studio's we had sound deadening insulation (looked kinda like foam egg cartons) that helped absorb the sound instead of having it bounce off the walls. I wonder if that might help in a shop?

[beacon14]

Be careful mounting foam to the walls and ceilings - many foams are quite flammable and can create a serious fire hazard.

[bcammack]

The egg-carton type shipping foam is quite flammable, however the commercial sound-control foam used by professional recording studios and such is safe.

If you could keep the dust out of 'em in a shop environment, there is a lot of sound control benefit from hanging 12"x36" Masonite panels, on edge, covered with fiberglass in a checkerboard pattern from the ceiling where each "square" has the boards at right angles to the adjoining "square". Sound goes straight up into such a ceiling and "dies" there in the baffles.