Shopbot Upgrades for Cabinetry

[bill_lumley]

I am looking at upgrading my current 48X96 PRS standard to an Alpha platform and evaluating the option to upgrade to a 60" wide table . I really don't have a need to handle 60" wide material but more the addition of a second Z axis that is making me think about this option . The additional Y dimension would allow a second Z to be either used for additonal drilling operations or a second spindle . With a single Z I would have 2 air drills to allow 5 mm and 20 mm dedicated drills . These are most important to me . I currently have a single drill for 5 mm on the 48" machine .

I am looking for input on what folks use the second Z for by folks who are doing cabinet parts on their Shopbot . The addition of the Link was a great step forward for the utility of the Shopbot and it is making me think more about effeciencies that I can gain by making full use of the link beyond the standard drillings I use today for shelf holes, hinge plates and drawer slides.

Thanks Bill

P.S. Thanks to everyone who has given me input so far this year and helped sort out issues as they arrose .... especially Gary who pioneered the tuning of the Shopbot Air drill to allow a smaller compressor to be used . That was a big step forward !

[thewoodcrafter]

Your most productive upgrade by far is to an Alpha.

I have 2 Z's on my machine. A spindle for cutting and a router for drilling.

You have drilling covered.

A second Z could be used for a larger bit. This larger bit will save time in pocketing and faster perimeter cut outs.

I use a 1/4" bit for everything and at 6IPS it's not real fast. I would think a 1/2" bit could cut at 10 - 12IPS with acceptable results. Or maybe even 1 pass cut outs at 5 - 6IPS.

The Link will tool path the largest bit for the job and you select the cut out tool. So a second Z could be used to raise efficiency.

[dlcw]

I use a single 2.2hp spindle and a Shopbot air drill. Most of my sheet material operations are done with a 3/8" mortise compression bit. Shelf pin holes are drilled with a 1/4" bit (I use this size because I have hundreds of 1/4" shelf pins). Once they are used up, I will switch to 5mm. 5mm can also be used for some hinge and drawer slide mounting (efficiency). I have the 96x60 table with 4 vacuum zones. This way I can handle 60x60 baltic birch for drawer parts (when I don't purchase drawer boxes). It also gives me the option to add a second spindle and process 4x8 sheets. I'm REALLY glad I went to a 60 instead of a 48. Like someone said in another post, it's easier to use the 60" seldom then to wish you had the 60" and can't do it.

If I had the money to go to a two spindle system, I would load one spindle with a 1/4" down spiral for pocket cutting (4-5ips) and would used the other for a 3/8" mortise compression bit for parts cutout (6-8ips). Those are the two bits I use the most in panel processing. Some day I might get the nerve to increase cutting speed to 8-10ips, but right now I don't have the intestinal fortitude. I need to improve my vacuum hold down first.

I have a Blum boring machine for Blum hinges so I don't make those holes during CNC operations. I have yet to do much frameless cabinetry otherwise I would have a second air drill to punch Blum Tandem slide holes.

Don
www.dlwoodworks.com (http://www.dlwoodworks.com)

[navigator7]

Don,
What vacuum pressures are you able to hold on a 4x8 sheet of plywood?
What vacuums can you hold on good material in your smallest zone?
What is your CFM's and Hp rating for your hold down system?

You mentioned "frameless cabinetry". (A new word in my lexicon of crafts)
So ... I Googled it and I got cabinets as I have come to know them.
How else is it done?


682

[nat_wheatley]

Bill,

I may be misreading your question, but I had thought that you would need to go with the 60"W table just to have the second drill. I may be wrong on that, but you may want to check.

Nat

[ken_rychlik]

I have a question on Bills post. At what point do you add to much weight to the gantry and cause more flex? Also a 60 inch machine will have to flex more than a 48 inch one.

I don't have a second Z or drill yet, but the added weight concerns me.

Kenneth

[bill_lumley]

Hi Nat , no the 48" wide table from everyone tells me will handle 2 drills mounted on a single spindle over the entire 48" width . The bracket that comes with the Shopbot drill has mounting holes for 2 drill heads .

What would drive me to a 60" table would be a requirement that required a 3rd or fourth drill OR second spindle/router . One idea I got from Ryan at Shopbot was to have a second spindle to have a surfacing bit permanently mounted . I think at the moment I put off surfacing until I have vacuum problems from the chewed up spoil board because it takes about 30++ minutes to surface at the moment but the Alpha will make that process less painfull .

If I add a 3rd drill it would be a 10mm drill to pre-drill for leg levelers but I have a strategy that I can use a 5mm bit for that that I am going to try in the new year . Basically I drill a 5mm hole and then enlarge it with a handle held drill such as this . They come in 10mm size with a 5.5mm end on them and I am having a few ground down to 5mm to use for this purpose so in effect I can get more utility from the 5mm drilling operation .

683
The cost of that extra 12" of table is much more than the $1100 table difference by the tim eyou add the seond Z and any drills and spindles so I want to see if there is a must have reason to do it although I might just spend the $1100 so I am ready if the need arises in the future .

[nat_wheatley]

Bill,

Which leg levelers are you using. I use Camar, which has the option of a 10mm or 15mm dowel. I use the 15mm, and use a 1/4" bit in my spindle to rout the holes.

I'm not sure what size bit you do your outline cuts with, but if it's 3/8", I could see why you wouldn't want to do the 10mm holes with it.

Nat

[bill_lumley]

Hi Nat,

My local supplier only carries the 10mm version but thanks for pointing out the 15mm version exists . I currently use a 1/4" compression with my 2.2 HSD for my outline cuts and doing 20 mm holes but was thinking of moving up to a 3/8" bit for outline cuts when I move to Alpha so doing a 10mm hole might not work with the spindle there but a 15mm may work fine with the spindle .

I have been going around in circles on the whole upgrade topic trying to determine the best option for my needs and budget also factoring in the potential downtime of selling my machien and getting a new one . It certainly is less effort to upgrade an existing machine especially when you take into account the time to make the plenum,seal it and re-wire the vacuum system . Time afterall is money


I find I make better decisions in the end when I get the extra input . Thanks to Ken for pointing out the extra wide gantry may also introduce extra flex . This is a system afterall .

Bill

[porscheman]

Hi guys - I'll toss in a few thoughts here based on my machine configuration and cabinet cutting experience. I have a PRT Alpha with a dual Z setup - a 3HP Columbo spindle is on the primary Z and a PC router is on the secondary Z. This configuration (which was how the machine was setup when I purchased it used) has proven to be exceptionally flexible:

1) Once you have a second fully functional Z axis (as opposed to just a plunge drill), your machining options are more extensive and if properly planned, you rarely if ever have to make a bit change during cutting. Using the SB Link, I have a 3/8" compression bit in the primary Z and a 5mm bit in the secondary Z. With the 3/8" bit, I can cut at 6-8ips (depending on material) - bit flex is far less on the 3/8" cutter and the "bit scream" is far lower than a 1/4" cutter. Also, the 3/8" bit makes quick work of full width dadoes and large pockets. The 5mm bit in the second Z takes care of all hardware and shelf pin holes AND allows me to cut narrow dadoes without making a bit change. So for example, if I'm cutting drawer boxes with a 1/4" plywood bottom and that plywood is only .21" thick, the Link will automatically choose the 5mm bit for those operations and keep right on running. For drilling and pocketing, the 3/8" bit is used whenever possible, but the 5mm bit can also be used to make any holes or pockets that are smaller than 3/8".

2) In a similar vein, if you ever find yourself doing any 3D work, the dual Z configuration is equally useful. I use Aspire to create a roughing toolpath with a 1/2" endmill to hog out the majority of the material (using the router on the secondary Z axis) and then instantly switch over to the much quieter spindle and an 1/8" or 1/16" ballnose bit for the lengthy finishing pass. No stopping for bit changes or rezeroing in the middle of the 3D work....

3) Finally, one other possible way to save money as you contemplate the upgrade to a second Z axis is to simply add the second Z with just a PC router to begin with (rather than shelling out the extra 1000+ bucks for a spindle on that second Z). This immediately gives you all the cutting/milling/drilling advantages of the second Z axis, but you can evaluate whether your runtime on the second Z axis actually merits the investment in another spindle for that axis.

John

[dlcw]

Chuck,

I use 4 independent 220vac house central vacuum cleaner motors directly attached to the underside of my table.

Link for vacuum motors: http://www.centralvacuummotor.com/lighthouse.htm

Ward is the owner of this company and he is GREAT to work with. Very fare and will treat you right. Scroll down until you see model number 117123-13 and that's the motor. His prices include the shipping! Call him to place the order as he is pleasant to talk with and will answer any of your questions.

No plumbing. I have 1/4" tubes running from each plenum to a vacuum gauge.


684


685

When I have a fresh spoil board I get about 7inches. I haven't measured the CFM. I need to do that to figure out what needs to be increased for better holddown - vacuum or CFM. I am going to be experimenting with using 3/4" MDF instead of 1/2" Trupan just to see if hold down is better. For the most part 4x8 and 5x5 sheets are held well. For small parts, less then 4" wide - like stretchers - I use tabs to hold them in place. For 3D carving small parts, I will attach the material to a piece of MDO with screws and then use the vacuum to hold the MDO down. Works well.

As far as cabinets types, there are frameless and faceframed cabinets. Most of what I do has faceframes from solid wood. More work but a step up from frameless.

JC - you are a good writer. Great writeup on how you use your system. Very efficient. I do so much 5x5 baltic birch processing that I'm afraid to put a 2nd Z on and loose that capability. This is something I really have to think about. I wish there was a way to put one spindle on one side of the gantry and the other spindle on the other side keeping them in line on the X axis. This would enable 60" table owners to still use 5x5 sheets with no problem. I don't think 4x8's would be a problem as my X axis has more extra length then my Y axis has width. Oh well....

Don

[ken_rychlik]

Don, you can step up to 18mm trupan with no trouble, but if you try mdf you are in for some messed up parts.

Kenneth

[dlcw]

Thanks Kenneth.

The only Trupan I can get in this area is 1/2". I wonder what the outcome would be doubling the 1/2" into 1" thick. Might try it.

Don

[ken_rychlik]

See if you can find Tafisa lightweight mdf in thicker sheets. It works good also.

Kenneth

[frank134]

don do you have trouble with noise and dirt getting into the vac. I have two on my 5 x 10 pipe in with valve. I was planning to add two more. I pipe the one's I have now to another room with a filter in between to stop chips.

thank you
frank

[dlcw]

Kenneth,
I found a local supplier that carries 3/4" ultralight. I'm going to try some of that.

Frank,
Whenever I've changed my spoil board I have found virtually no sawdust or chips in my plenum. Even after a hundred sheets or so of plywood, clean as a whistle. I use white melamine edge banding on my 1/2" Trupan spoil board. When I turn on the vacuum motors it sucks the Trupan flat and seals it against the plenum and nothing gets under it to the motors.

Don

[pappybaynes]

I have 4 of the Lighthouse vacs and with gasket material from All Star I am cutting 242 4" circles out of 1/8 bamboo - no tabs.

[bill_lumley]

Thanks guys for all the input as always . It has given me a few more things to think about . I am comfortable now going either 48 or 60" but would prefer 60" . To make best use of any upgrade I need to upgrade my E-cabines cabinet files . I have using the Link on 3 large jobs this year and found I learned something new each time and now it is time to include all those 'findings' in my new cabinet library to get full benefit of the CNC .

Happy New Year to All !!!

Bill