Spindle or router??

[dubliner]

I've read a lot of threads on the 'Bot and have a question. I hope to purchase a bot & use it to carve cool doors and panels (eventually :-), and probably v-carve signs too. If carving rather than cutting sheet goods, am I right in thinking the cost of a spindle would be better spent elsewhere.

[mikejohn]

Neville
The shopbot can most certainly do a great deal of work with something as small as a 700w 'router'.
Check out the amount of work done by Gerald with his die-grinder. (search die-grinder).
A spindle is much superior to any router in performance, but is much more tempermental, and costs a huge amount more.
If it comes down to cash, don't be afraid to go the router route for v-carving. It works fine.

................Mike

[wcsg]

If you have the $$$$ to be spent elsewhere then get the spindle. Otherwise you will be happy with the router. I've known a few people who have always upgraded to a spindle and been happier

[gerald_d]

There is no shame in starting out with a router or a die-grinder. You can almost treat them as disposable and cut your teeth on them.

Don't assume that carving is always a lighter load - some carvings need a lot of material hogged away.

[terryd]

Neville, If buying the spindle will affect your purchasing the shopbot then go with the router. Although the spindle is a great thing to have it is not neccessary for the operation on the CNC. The thing you need most is experience and then you can sort the chafe from the wheat. The Spindle vs. Router debate is still ongoing in this forum and will likely never cease since the correct answer will what suites you best and that can only be learned with trying things and making mistakes. The router path will be the cheapest $$$ price of admission into the brotherhood.

Terry

[dubliner]

Gerald, thats precisely why I thought about the router, from what I deduce, the spindle would work better with sheet goods but not $4500 better at carving. Go all blacks :-)

[richards]

Neville,
I would suggest that you start with a router and then graduate to a spindle when your skills make the spindle a practical necessity. For the first year, I ran my Alpha with a PC-7518 router - and complained to all who would listen. NOT having the spindle let me concentrate on designing parts and learning how a CNC machine works. When I finally got the spindle, the improvement in cut quality, reduced noise level, and overall satisfaction with my Alpha rose to a new level (not counting the nine months that I wasted due to a wireless network card that caused serious errors that I blamed on the spindle/VFD. THE SPINDLE/VFD HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ERRORS).

If I were to do it over again, I would follow Eric Lamoray's advice and buy the 5hp model rather than the 3hp model. The 3hp does everything that the machine is capable of doing with a Fein vacuum - meaning that I seldom make single-pass cuts. If I had a vacuum that allowed single-pass cuts, the 3hp spindle would be running right at the top of its range, and I'm fairly certain that I would have a serious heat problem. As it now stands, I'll probably run this spindle until I get a shop big enough to make a blower vacuum system an asset. (Who would have ever thought that a 'larger shop' would be considered to be an accessory for a Shopbot?)

Every once-in-a-while, I cut doors, drawer fronts and plaques. They all have a lot of V-bit cutting. The quality of the doors, drawer fronts and plaques with a spindle are much superior to the cuts that I got using the PC-7518. Some of the improvement in the plaques I'll attribute to reduced side-to-side movement that came as an improvement when I started using AllStar gasket tape with my GAST vacuum, but the improvement in the doors and drawer fronts whould have to be attributed to the spindle, since nothing else changed.

[mikejohn]

Mike,
Are you suggesting by your remark THE SPINDLE/VFD HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ERRORS, that all the problems we read on this Forum about the spindle/vfd combination are not inherent in these parts, but are only influenced by outside sources?
I always have the feeling that the VFD part is a very touchy thing.

..............Mike

[les_linton]

Mike,
If I am reading Mikes post correctly, he says that he had problems that he initially related to the spindle/vfd and when he finally resolved his issues, he determined that "his" problems were not caused by the vfd/spindle.

Now I bought my machine used (PRT 96) with a 5hp spindle, but have yet (knock on wood)had any problems with it. And quite frankly, every time I hit the switch on my router table, I'm really glad I have the spindle. The difference in the db level is dramatic.

Les

[richards]

Mike J.
The VFD can cause a lot of electrical frequency interference (EFI) that can cause a lot of problems, but proper grounding and the use of inductors and reactors (both recommended by the manufacturer) will eliminate EFI as a problem. The VFD tends to magnify any existing electrical problem that may exist, making it just that much easier to find the problem and eliminate it.

[gus]

To add to what Mike J said above......I would say the problem is a VFD not made to operate in the real world. Bet it worked real well in the lab under controled conditions. If a wireless modem can jam up your VFD (or any other part of the system) I would wonder about the design of it and not the wireless modem. Kind of like building a leaky boat and telling the customer the reason it sank was that you got it wet.

[handh]

Ted, I not sure but I think that it was the not the wireless card itself but that the computer is pinging for the wireless network. I might be wrong but this what I understood at the jamboree. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[gerald_d]

I must defend the much maligned VFD. They are made for the real world by real engineers who write instructions on how VFD's should be used and what their limitations are. Snag is, the book is tossed out the window and the installation is done as cheaply as possible. Folk take shortcuts because most times they get away with it - when they don't, it is too easy to turn around and blame the VFD.

[mikejohn]

Is the concensus of opinion that the VFD is OK but we, the end users, are shortcutting the installation?

............Mike

[richards]

I second what Gerald posted. The VFD is an amazing piece of electronics. By its very nature, it generates a lot of EFI, but the manual RECOMMENDS reactors and filters to control that EFI.

Back when I was having my problems, when I was absolutly certain that the problem was the fault of the VFD/spindle, many of you emailed me privately, recommending a line reactor or a load reactor or an EFI filter, or a software adjustment in the VFD. All of your suggestions were appreciated and followed. When I finally realized that the wireless card was causing the computer to ignore the sbp file as it hunted and hunted for a wireless connection, I realize that the identical problem would have caused the same error whether I was using a router or a spindle.

Looking back at the history of the wireless saga, I had changed the brand of the wireless card at the same time that four more neighbors added wireless to their networks, at the same time that I installed the spindle, at the same time that several of the neighbors decided to use the same wireless channel number that I was using. I would call that the confluence of a lot of rare circumstances to cause a singular problem.

The upshot to all of this is, with the the line reactor, the load reactor, the EFI filter and the software changes, my VFD/spindle complies with ALL recommended practices.

What Gerald said about Folk take shortcuts because most times they get away with it - seems to be all too true. If something appears to be working, we seldom check to see if we've followed all recommended procedures.

[terryd]

Neville,
Another simple question run amok on the forum. The bottom line is if you don't want your first few months to be a continuation of the above discussion then get a router. Cheap, easy to run, and one less variable in the learning curve..The decibels, the decibels...put in ear plugs..anybody that can pick their noses can do that simple task; I doubt the same can be said about or for VFD's....wink, wink, nudge, nudge ,know what I mean eh, Know what I mean....

Terry ;-)

[ed_lang]

Neville,

Lets go back to the bar at the Hilton and talk about this thing.

Its time to spend some money and get the machine on the way!!!! Order the router, start cutting and then upgrade if you need to.

[dubliner]

Ed, I will as soon as I can sneak one past my wife when the house is finished.
6588

[dubliner]

making progress
6589

[gerald_d]

The trench in the last pic; is that for the SB power cable?

[dubliner]

Yes it is and the crane is dropping in the UPS,
No, the workshop is down the hill, had to locate it there so the router wouldn't annoy the missus :-)

[ed_lang]

Neville,

When we talked about this post and beam construction I had grand visions of it. But it is much better looking at pictures!!!

So can I have a room in the shop?