Rookie Question Re: Capabilities of ShopBot

[keith_r]

My background is in Sheet Metal and Architectural Coated Foam Shapes (HotWire) Manufacturing. I only know basic wood working from weekends in my garage.

From what I see here though I am ready to order a large size Shop Bot to eliminate some holes in our capabilities and to improve our quality, yet I'm a little unsure.

I love all the custom capabilities, and will certainly use many of them, but what I really need is 3 things. 1) Production Molding for construction, particularly a 5x1 Fluted Molding, 2) Arched Moldings, and 3) One or Two panel cabinet doors.
I prefer to use materials like PVC board, Sometimes even recycled. Hopefully this is fine (Any suggestions on low cost plastics or similar is also appreciated).

My real concern is that perhaps this is not the correct machine for quantity runs of items like the 5x1 fluted molding. Should I get just a Molder instead? I don't really want to. I can much more easily justify the investment if I get a machine with so many more capabilities like the ShopBot. My volume for that one Item isn't that big, approximately 800-1000 l.f. per month, but I can't wait long for it. I guess the big question is how long will it take the Bot to cut 800' (80-10' pcs.) with 5 flutes? It looks like it might take like three days, is this true?

As far as the two panel doors go, is it true that I can just set up a few pre-cut flat panels, hit the go button, and come back to find 4 or 6 doors ready to go with all the reliefs cut? Can anybody guess how long it takes to cut say... 6-two panel designs in 18"x50" doors?

I'm familiar with the cad setup time and machine maintenence, etc. I'm just concerned about the actual cutting time.

Thanks So Much for any help offered! I do appreciate it. I guess I should go to Durham in 2 weeks, hope to see you there!

Thanks!

[cip]

Keith
I bought my Alpha about 8 months ago with the intent on cutting radius moldings etc. like you. I soon learned that it takes about 3 hours to cut a 36" dia. half circle with a molding profile. Not really efficient for any type of production, So I bought a molder for the profiled mildings. I use the Bot to cut the blanks and the molder to finish the profile.

Fluted moldings on the Bot work ok, your 8' pieces should take about 8-10 minutes each, not as fast as the molder but still ok especially if your doing stop flute moldings which are difficult on a molder. Plus router bits for the Bot are still less expensive than knives for the molder.

So I guess the answer for what you are asking is you should really have the Bot and a molder.

I have never tried doors but the cut time is always based on type of profile and cut speed so without knowing both who knows.

Mike

[patricktoomey]

Keith,

One huge factor in what you're asking is going to be the software that you use to make the toolpaths. As Mike said, Bots are great for certain things, but not good for high volume production in many cases. The doors in particular are possibly good candidates for a bot depending on exactly what you want. The key there would be picking the right software for the job. If you're just looking to route rectangular patterns with a plunge bit on the doors and you don't mind rounded inside corners then many programs would work, including Parts Wizard. If you are intending on doing complex profiles that you can't get a bit for and you need to mill complex toolpaths or squared inside corners then it gets more complex and you may need something like ArtCam or EnRoute. Either way, it can definitely be done and if you search this forum there is even some free software out there that may do what you want with the doors. In short, I would say that if you just want lots of the same parts really fast, the bot may not be for you. But if you want incredible flexibility and reasonable speed, it's an amazing tool that nothing else comes close to.

[btk]

Keith,

I find that with StyroFoam:
(1) Fluted Moudlings with Stopped Flutes are very efficient on CNC router and you should be able to run that job in less than 1 day (time depends on which shopbot you get PRT or Alpha). With Styrofoam, you can plunge directly to finish depth with a 1" diameter core box bit, so your flutes will take one quick pass each (as opposed to wood which would require a few passes adjusting depth on each pass). With Strofoam that will be coated, you do not have to worry as much about surface finsih as a quick pass of hand sanding will smooth.
(2) Depending on the profile in question, I find that Arch-Top Casing are more efficient on a Turntable Equiped Hotwire Machine.
However Elliptical tops and other non-Radial mouldings (depending on the profile) can be more effiecient on CNC router, however as you mentioned, routing will take considerable time.
(3) To get a raised-panel look, you can do basic version with just one v-groove bit, however to get a more detailed look, you will be changing bits several times between 3 or 4 bits. Depending on tool changes, you will have to be back at machine to change the bits. (Search forum for "cabinet doors" and you should see various bits, strategies and software).

I have found that the Cellular PVC gives the most "wood" like appeaance and machining (as far as PVC's go), however it is not cheap.

With Styrofam milling, be prepared for a lot of dust in the air. (try to isolate router in a seperate room if you can ) and also invest in vacuum table as makes very easy to hold material down to table.

-Brian

[btk]

Keith,

Here is a foam ellipse made on Router.


6956

Brian

[earld]

Brian-
Nice work!
Keith-
Download the Trial VCarve Wizard, it has estimated machining times. Plus you can work out alot of different cutting strategies.
Earl

[btk]

Thanks Earl, VCarve looks great.

Keith, here is a basic PVC Raised panel, with just V-Bit and cutout bit.

6957

Edited to Add: also manual roundover bit.

Brian

[jhicks]

Nice door panel! Never considerd pvc but I sure will in the future. Nice Ellipse as well.

[btk]

Thanks Jerry,
That was one of 10 panels for a screened porch I am making.

Brian

[keith_r]

WOW! Thanks everybody!

I read many other postings yesterday before I joined, and it looked like a very helpful group, but I must say I didn't expect this much response to my questions within 24 hours. What a terrific community you guys have here.

Thanks to you all so much for the help!

My suspicions were confirmed that a Bot is not really a high volume machine for some items, but for the quality and consistency of output, I can live with the production times in most cases. If I can produce molding, arches, door and shutter panels in EPS Foam, Plastics, or wood, all on the same machine with repeatable quality- that is simply amazing to me. Throw in all the other Bot capabilities and I'm out looking for a bigger shop tomorrow (umm... If I can get my orders caught up, put out 3 fires, visit 2 jobsites, etc).

Mike - Thanks! I think I'll take your advice. I just got a quote for a used 5 head molder (Moulder), for 29,000. I know nothing about molders but it looks to me like this beast could build a small town evey day. (Actually, the more I look at it, I think it can take you back to the future also). There has to be a simpler and less expensive machine out there for small production - like maybe 10,000 l.f. a month capability. What do you guys recommend, and how much did it cost?

Mike & Patrick - I see you are close to me, I'm in Plant City/Tampa. Maybe we can work together, I'm backed way up.

Patrick - Thanks for the advice, I guess I'd better get started playing with the various software.

Brian - Wow, Thanks for all the helpful info. It's cool that you understand the Foam business as well as the PVC's / woods. I'll be sure to be sending more questions your way and hope to be able to help back some day.

Your elipse has nice detail and I'm guessing that with a higher resolution, I would see much nicer detail and consistency than can be achieved with a hot wire (yes, I use one), is this true? Of course we can sand foam easily, but we can't add detail. Basically I'm asking if my suspicion is correct that the router puts out overall better quality than the wire?

It looks like you are using a 1/2"? PVC on that beautiful screen panel, who's your favorite manufacturer/vendor for that?

Re: PVC I've been making hundreds of Rosettes from PVC. That's how I started to fall in love with the material, It solved a lot of problems I had with wood. It cuts very nicely for the most part, and of course it lasts forever which you can't say for many other Exterior Florida products. I'm working toward switching as much of my production to PVC as I economically can. It costs a ton more than Foam, but it eliminates so many steps and is so much better overall I find it doesn't matter in many cases (mostly small pieces so far).

I've used Plasticlad(.com)(nice stuff-woodgrain if you want), and Plastic Lumber Yard(.com)(not sure) so far, but I'm not convinced they have the perfect solution/price yet. Anybody recommend some good sources?

Thanks again everyone
God Bless and Good Bot-in
Keith

[scottcox]

Keith,

Check out the WoodMaster (www.woodmastertools.com (http://www.woodmastertools.com)) for your molder.

It may handle your needs for MUCH, MUCH less than that 29K.

Scott

[cip]

Keith
You might want to check out the Mikron Molder it's the one I bought and am very happy with it, about $17K. It's made in Canada and the support staff are a lot like ShopBot.
(www.mikronmachinery.com/ (http://www.mikronmachinery.com/))

[btk]

Keith,

That PVC panel is 3/4" thick.
I have used Azek, Fypon and Koma Cellular PVC.
I would say in general that a Hotwire is more efficient for pure cutting/slicing and CNC router better for "carving". You can acheive a very smooth finish with Router, however as you increase surface smoothness, you increase time (have to pass over material more times). Have to ballance the two.

Brian

[jhicks]

Keith, I second the motion on Woodmaster. We have the 18" planer/molder and generally run arches more than linear trim as more of a niche but straight runs up to 16' / minute max speed 3/16" cut depth max per pass. If you look into it, ask about their arched fixture and 5HP drive motor for a robust machine. Haven't run PVC but probably need to investigate it. They always are running a sale so get on their mailing list and wait for the DEAL.
We cut most arches in TRUPAN for paint grade on the bot and profile on the woodmaster. Very efficient.

[oddcoach]

I also have a woodmaster.Very nice tool. williams and hussey also makes a nice little moulder.