Let's Talk about the ShopBot Forum

[gerald_d]

Following on from a drift in this thread (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/26/4492.html).......

I would suggest that we are overdue to have a discussion about the Forum per se. What is it doing for us? Who is "responsible" for it? Can it be improved? Etc.

[gerald_d]

When the ShopBot company made this 'Discus' board available, they gave it the sub-title "A forum for ShopBot® owners to exchange ideas and information" and in the opening thread on Using this forum (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/373/374.html) it was said "All messages and postings become the property of ShopBot Tools and may not be copied or forwarded without the permission of the owner. Furthermore, we reserve the right to edit or delete any inappropriate item or content." (There is also a small 'Rules' statement that comes standard with any 'Discus' board and that is at the end of the Getting Started instructions (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi?pg=instructions#rules).)

I tend to forget about the "All messages and postings become the property of ShopBot Tools" because I am more used to other discussion boards where the board owners say something to the opposite effect that "The site owner is not responsible for the content posted by members or visitors on any area of our site". (Example (http://www.virtualtourist.com/vt/p/3a))

Thus, if the ShopBot company is going to take legal responsibility for everything said at this Forum, then they have to check every post very meticulously. However, I believe that there are hundreds of posts from which the ShopBot company should really distance themselves. For example, the posts on showing people how to copy/trace copyrighted items, or those on shortcuts to take with electrical installions, or those recommending un-safe cutting speeds, etc., etc. This is a much bigger picture than me joking about bribes.

When I received ShopBot's mail opening with "You knew I couldn't leave that suggestion up, didn't you......" I was gob-smacked. In fact, I had to read the mail three times before I saw that the title of the mail was "Bribes?" and then it took a while to remember that I had used this word on this Forum. This was at least the 4th occasion on which my stuff was edited/deleted and I just realised at that point that I am marching to a different beat than that of the ShopBot drum. The previous time was when someone was having difficulty with posting an image and my post to show that it could be done was promptly and silently deleted. My second attempt was also deleted. The duty SB support person spent more time and effort deleting my posts rather than help the newbie to post his image.

May I respectfully suggest that ShopBot change its policy for this Forum, to an edited style of the example (http://www.virtualtourist.com/vt/p/3a) that I gave above. This will relieve their staff from having to analyse every word written here. And may I further suggest that the effort currently put into monitoring the Forum is rather changed to steering members to the correct threads (or a FAQ section) where that issue has been well covered.

[elcruisr]

Again Gerald, if you have so much trouble with these people, why not do it your self? It's their board, they pay for it to exist and we wouldn't have it without their efforts. Since it is them, and not us, footing the bill we can do it their way or go elsewhere. I applaud what they have provided. Is it perfect? Maybe not but it beats the heck out of what most others are offering.

We can make suggestions that are completely up to them to take or not. Again, this is their work and their property, not ours. Would you want someone to constantly critique your business and the way you do it while still expecting to come in and use your tools for free? Probably not.....

[gerald_d]

Eric, I welcome critique of my business - in fact, I become nervous if the critique stops. Look past me and my personality clash problems, and discus the proposal above. Notice that the proposal is intended to reduce the responsibility and the workload of the SB staff.

[fleinbach]

At first I was not sure where I wanted to stand on this issue. Originally, when this all started, I would probably have felt very similar to and reacted just as Gerald did. But then after thinking about it and watching far too much court TV I understand Shopbots position. The path that they have chosen, that being to take responsibility for, and attempt to monitor the content on, this forum , which they sponsor, was what they considered the best method to protect themselves from the sad state of litigation that is prevalent in today’s society.

Let’s say they took the other path, that being to let the forum free for everyone to do as they please, or say what they want, yet have it remain on there web site could be twisted by some slick attorney into there condoning the behavior just by providing a place for it to exist. They would surely say if you are going to host a forum for people to freely exchange ideas and then look the other way if these ideas turn to illegal activity or suggest it even jokingly, you are surely condoning it.

Just travel using any airport in the world and I am sure you have seen the signs since 9/11 worded something like “Please do not even joke about carrying weapons, as all comments will be taken seriously” This farfetched attitude is indicative of the poor training employees receive today. Everything is either black or white this protects them from thinking for themselves and risking making a mistake.

People who come here first before calling tech support amaze me. I am not sure why when Shopbot support has always been very easy to reach. I don’t think it is Shopbots responsibility to monitor this forum and search out these people who neglect to call when they have a problem.

[gerald_d]

I would agree entirely that the Forum is not the official way to ask for ShopBot support, but this is something that is not immediately apparent to "newbies". They see a lot of "support" happening on the Forum and make the natural conclusion that this is the most convenient point of call. Maybe the purpose and limitations of the Forum need to be more expressly stated?

On the "amazing" issue of calling in here first, rather than calling the SB phone number, I must unfortunately say that my personal experiences of calling ShopBot support have not been so successful. Probably because I am in a different time zone, we have different holidays, international phone calls sometimes have technical (delay) problems and we can't use the toll-free number. (That is after having figured out which one is the toll-free number). My own non-American accent, and my misinterpretation of the American accent also makes a telephone conversation difficult. When one has a problem, there is always the hope that there is a "quick" easy answer without having to fill out the formal Tech Support Request (http://www.shopbottools.com/req_techsup.htm). But it should be clear to everyone that the Tech Support Request is the proper and official route to Support.

[bjenkins]

It seems to me that several issues/perspectives are getting mixed together. I don't hear Gerald suggesting that there is a problem with ShopBot providing a forum-- I think we all appreciate it. I don't hear Gerald suggesting that ShopBot shouldn't protect themselves from litigation. The question he raised is about how to do BOTH things most effectively. It may require a lawyer to get to the bottom of it, but it seems viable and even more prudent to me to overtly disclaim responsibility for the postings of a public forum. The purpose can still be serve. That being a meaningful forum for owners to share their experiences and support each other. At the same time ShopBot is not exposed to frivolous litigation or burdened with review and sensorship of postings. I don't see the suggestion as a criticism at all, but as a well intentioned idea for improvement.

[paco]

Maybe the purpose and limitations of the Forum need to be more expressly stated?
I agree with this!

Here the FASTEST way I get support(usualy within 12 hours!); support@shopbottools.com (mailto:support@shopbottools.com)
Accent free!!!

Maybe this e-mail address should be available with Forum title...

[mrdovey]

Gerald...

One of the options might be to set up a usenet forum (news:alt.shopbot or some such) for which ShopBot Tools would have no responsibility and so incur no liability.

...Morris

[richards]

Although a usenet forum has possibilities, it also has limitations. Spend a little time looking at some of the more popular sites (alt.comp.linux.advocacy, rec.woodworking, etc. - I may have the wrong names. I'm working from a machine that isn't configured for newsgroup access.) Some of those sites have degenerated into mud-slinging free-for-alls.

As to the liability or potential liability to Shopbot, or any other company that sponsers a web site, it is real. I still manage web sites for several major professional photo labs who receive hundreds of digital images each day for processing into finished photographs. The labs are totally responsible for the content of *all* data/images that are found on their systems. If anything is ever found on any of their computers that violates the decency/porn laws or endorses illegal behavior, the company is liable. At the very least, the computer equipment could be seized.

Sometimes it might be best to remember that we are, in effect, guests on a computer that has been made available to help us help each other. Unfortunately, humor, even tonge-in-cheek humor, if seen by the wrong eyes at the wrong moment by someone having a bad-hair-day or by someone with an axe to grind, could force the closure of this forum.

[gerald_d]

I am not suggesting that another forum be created - this one is quite satisfactory.

However, I think that the rules/limits/intentions/responsibilities/etc. of this Forum need to be more clearly stated/understood, for everyone - new and old members alike.

[slendon]

Having briefly reflected on my own reactions to the news about deleted "illegal" content:

I have no other experience of computer forums and the like, so find I have little to say re the structure pros and cons of this one.

However I did immediately feel that the rules were being selectively applied, many postings on this forum contain dubiously legal statements, yet remain uncorrected (are there other corrections that we don't hear of?) I also realised that there maybe a historical undercurrent between Gerald and members of Shopbot creating a hidden agenda.

Whatever, it is my opinion that whoever is in a position of authority (moderators) has the professional and moral obligation to be even handed in the application of that authority.( I'm not saying it's an easy job !)

I'm always keen on things being reviewed and restated, it helps us all pull in the same direction. So a review of this forum is no bad thing.

Steve Lendon

[waynelocke]

As one who has never fit easily or well into any organization this forum seems relatively unscathed by the ridiculousness and silliness of many groups. Compared to other forums I follow, it seems remarkably open and on task and wholly lacking in secret handshakes. If there is ocassional silliness that seems to be the price you pay for any group. I work by myself and constanly cuss the help.
Wayne

[arundo]

Why fix what isn't broken ?????

[gerald_d]

One of my SB friends has been frank enough to tell me that my name that I used on my posts, and the info in my profile could be irritating. That has been fixed now. It was never my intention to canvas for payment/business here at the forum - sorry if I gave that impression.

Is it okay for companies to come onto this Forum and look for business? I would say yes - provided they do it in a specific thread that has been set up for that purpose.

[erik_f]

The larger shopbot becomes...the less personal they will be...

Erik F

[paco]

I hope your wrong Erik...

[artisan]

With the understanding that advice is usually worth what you pay for it.....

Overall I find this forum to be one of the outstanding features of the Shopbot. I believe it is often abused by persons looking to shortcut the learning curve involved in CNC, who come here first, rather than reading the instructions. Still, it it is with amazement and great appreciation that I watch nearly every question get answered....usually thoroughly and patiently by several different posts. All in all, it is really the single most valuable thing about the Shopbot in my eyes and I could never have advanced so quickly in 3 short years without it and all the learned opinions here.

As for Gerald....I look forward to his posts more than most as he is mostly "spot on" and tireless in his explanations. There are many others, Bill, Brady, Morris, Ron to name a few, who freely devote their time and expertise here. I'm not sure I've seen this kind of "brotherly" help anywhere else.

Legal ramifications aside (Where there's a will, there's a lawyer), I still think most of us know right from wrong and whether it SHOULD be posted. The discrepancy indicated, is what CAN be posted. Up until now, I've seen nothing to make me think they are monitoring the forum unfairly. I've had one complaint about a deleted post of mine (an accident) and it was addressed immediately by Nancy. So, while I respect Gerald for airing things out a bit...I would vote for "Status Quo", and hope for it's continued usefulness. I do suggest (as Gerald said earlier) we all might read the rules we've agreed to abide by again....D

[gerald_d]

Hi Darrel. A year ago I actually found the Forum to be a fun place (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/312/1742.html), but these days I feel that I have to change my personality if I want to continue being part of this Forum. This (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/31/4155.html) was the incident that made me realise that I was stepping on toes. But I suppose that is the price one has to pay if one dares to be honestly critical of the fantastic support that everyone else raves about.

[mikejohn]

I have only recently returned to this forum after an absence of some 18 months.
Around March of 2003, I was openly solicited to purchase pirate software by a forum user (I had revealed I was then in Thailand)
In my reply, whilst admitting that most software is easily and openly purchaseable for a few dollars, I indicated why I would not be helping with his request.
Having read this entire thread, and fully endorsing everyones comments on Geralds excellent contribution at all times (and appreciating his wit and humour) I am amazed a solicitation to commit a criminal act which was clearly not meant to be humorous should remain undeleted (even to this day) whilst Geralds obvious humorous remark was deleted.
I have said previously, this Forum is a Shopbot university, and is probably the greatest advertisment Shopbot could ever have.
Most countries have yet to suffer the absurd litigation problems rampant in the USA, thank God, but from what I read in the press, I can understand Shopbots concern.
But who was going to sue in the case of Geralds remark?
Or his complaint about photographs?
By all means make the rules, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
I have so much to learn. Please don't drive away our best contributors.
Mike

[Support]

Welcome back Mike, and thanks for the warning note about the old thread. The two posts to which you referred have been removed as well as the notice that someone from ShopBot sent in a few days later that communications in our area were suffering from another ice storm. (Don't remember who had the necessary combination of electricity and internet access for posting but I do remember that was the year the ice storms came with the same frequency as the current hurricane crop.)

Several of us at ShopBot do try to check the forum regularly but that one slipped in and stayed.

[gerald_d]

This Forum is riddled with posts that suggest "copying" of different degrees. Various copying methods are discussed and encouraged. Hardware and software tools for copying are offered.

What I am personally more concerned about, is that there are plenty of posts that advocate unsafe (even illegal) working methods.

So, is it the responsibility of "Support" to censor everything so that this Forum becomes sterile? Or, do we accept that we have different individuals posting their personal opinions here?

[mikejohn]

In a thread earlier this year, concerning someone having problems cutting accurate circles, a reply was posted thus.
"I don't think anyone will yell at you here....unless you're doing something unsafe maybe."
Now it occurs to me that anyone posting unsafe advice, even inadvertantly, will be jumped on by experienced 'botters'.
This alone seems to make the forum worthwhile if it is as open as possible.
Should bad work practices cause ruined work or, worse still, personal injury, maybe Shopbot could be shown as liable.
So all advice that points out dangerous practices should be welcomed with open arms by the Shopbot team.
Bring back the wire Gnomes, I say!

[gerald_d]

Maybe I am thinking that this Forum is sort of sitting on the fence between:

- ShopBot company owned (legally responsible for content) forum. Where the SB company uses it as an official means for keeping contact with the outside world.

- ShopBot user owned (SB company not legally responsible for content) Where the SB company can choose to ignore what is being said. My impression is that the SB company would prefer this option, having registered an independent URL for this place, and having no link here back to the main SB site.

(The paying of server space and administration of the software are secondary issues)

[mikejohn]

If the Archive could be transfered, that would be great.

[gerald_d]

What do you mean by that, Mike?

Would anybody be interested in having the whole Forum on CD so that it can be browsed offline? (especially those on dial-up). Putting an archive on CD may be an option to free up server space....

[mikejohn]

Gerald,
this is going to be a long answer to a simple question.

Having spent quite some time reading many of the threads, I would like to offer the following observations.
There appear to be as many different reasons for buying a shopbot as there are owners, but there are some similarities. Many of the query items, although specific to a single problem, often spill over into other associated problems. Often, the thread follows through different thinking processes, giving readers an insight into the problem and the solution.
These types of 'conversations' are invaluable to myself, and I guess many others, who are coming new to CNC routing.
If you trawl through the web looking at CNC routers, two things stand out; 1 the enormous cost of most machines, and 2: no other forums like this.
As I said previously, this forum is my over-riding reason for buying a shopbot.
I come to CNC routing with one major advantage, untold hours working on CAD programmes, mainly AutoCad, plus associated programs like 3D max, Corel Draw. So I understand most of the CAD issues that crop up.
Of course, I have yet to understand the links between the CAD file, and the physical movement of the machine.
I also have a second advantage of using an overhead pin router, and a self made copying machine. Neither are very accurate(the copying machine with in maybe 1/4 inch (6mm), but they have suited there pupose to date.
Now I need a CNC router.
18 months ago, I had no idea what it was all about. Today, just from this single source, the Forum, I at least understand the questions, and most of the answers. Many links from this forum take you to indepth information from manufacturers and other interest groups.
It is also apparent many experienced Shopbotters also find the forum extremely useful.
Wherelse would it be possible to discover something that has always puzzled me. How does the hole get into the wire, causing the smoke to escape, and hence, the machine to stop working?
I spent many hours trawling through the archive, finding information on "o" ring vacuum hold downs, dust problems, "Y" rail problems, and so on. Many things probably fixed with the latest edition.
If Shopbotdissasociates itself with this form, without even a link, how will newcomers ever find it?
To be boring, I will repeat, this to me is Shopbot University, and I missed many of the earlier classes.
Putting it on CD would be great, but only as an extra to what we have now.
Don't lets shrink the forum, lets free it of any restrictions, apart from the illegal, and let it grow.
Mike

[paco]

... naa naa naa naaaaa na...
(rythm)
... and give peace a chance...


(rythm)
... naa naa naa naaaaa na...

[mikejohn]

I need clarification on Pacos' point. Is he criticising Geralds suggestion, or my response?
I searched for other posts he had made, and found he has contributed often to this forum, with questions and answers, so Im guessing he supports it, as Gerald obviously does.
Whilst searching, I came across a thread in April/ May "TOTALLY DISGUSTED WITH SHOPBOT" which is the finest example for what this forum can do for Shopbot you might possibly want.

[Brady Watson]

I'll add my 2 cents here. I agree that this forum is an excellent resource and a major point in ShopBot's favor before I shelled out for 2 CNC machines.

The internet is really not that old. The idea of a company sponsored forum such as this, is a whole different realm than any other media type to date. As such, any new idea, or way of doing things (such as an internet forum) takes time to develop, manage and iron out politics for the good of all concerned. Put yourself in ShopBot's position for a moment. Many of you do not live in the USA, and are not aware of the sue-happy society some of us live in. What if someone joked around about something, someone read it on YOUR company's forum..."Hmm, sounds like a good idea"...turns on their CNC and proceeded to some type of accident while following what THEY thought was a valid action on YOUR SITE! It takes all kinds in this world...and there are many ambiguities in the English language.

It seems that users AND the company walk the tightrope of what is right, and what is censorship. Naturally, as a company owner, I would have to make sure that I covered my butt from the litigious mongrels out there that lack personal responsibility. While I do agree that deleting/editing Gerald's off-color remark was a bit overkill, I also believe that we shouldn't take this virtual forum too seriously. I have had my posts edited once or twice, but I don't take it to heart. We all have been out with friends, said something jokingly and someone in the group got bent out of shape. That's life.

Perhaps tolerance, flexibility and lightheartedness is something that we can all shoot for. It's just as bad when you take offense as when you give it.

-Brady

[gerald_d]

Brady, I wouldn't let one or two post deletions get me down, and I don't want the discussion to focus on my personality clash with the forum administrators.

Forums are not something new, and ShopBot isn't being innovative by making this one available. What is unusual, is ShopBot's belief that they are obliged to be held legally responsible for what is being said here. They place a needless burden on themselves and I am suggesting that they relieve themselves of this burden.

For what it is worth, I administer a couple of forums that use the same software as this one

[paco]

No No! Nothing wrong about your post Mike. It's just... how I felt about this threads.

I think ShopBot provide us with a VERY good forum; I don't know any other fabricant (CNC tool) who does. Before I came to know about ShopBot, I always wish to get to meet other programmer/operator and share ideas and observations about any aspects of my use of a CNC tool. Personnaly I did'nt get to be deleted or edited much often so I'm not bothered... if I was, I would just leave. BUT that's not ShopBot want! ...I think... hope...

Beside, forum users are some sort of a display for their tool; potential customer seem to get attract MUCH from the forum. A place to get to know more about other customer that get a ShopBot tool before them...

Sure the price is interesting too compared to other CNC tool!!! Have you noticed?!?!?

[K. Simmerer (Unregistered Guest)]

Hey Gerald,

I really hate when someone takes a thread and gets it really off track, don't you?

Did you ever notice that as soon as you start having fun, it never fails that they send in the lawyers? If you try to make everything idiot proof, someone will just make a better idiot! Once you pull the pin from Mr. Grenade he is no longer you friend....

All of these things may or may not be relative to the flow of this thread if you think about it.

OO! OOOO!... look, a chicken just ran through my front yard!


Keith