Pricing something different

[john_hartman]

Hi everyone,

This very complex and layered project is for a very large company who is looking to transform one of there conference rooms around a company theme, which is based around a pocket watch. The CAD drawings in the link below are of the proposed items to construct, finish and install. The room is 9.5ft x 15ft x 20ft. Each wall gets completely decorated. Here's a brief description of each wall.

Hallway- An 8ft. dia. pocket watch with company themes. Mostly likely carved from HDU foam and painted.

North Wall- The "back side" of the Hallway watch. It shows the inner "working" cogs, which will need to function/turn. Gears would most likely be plywood and everything else HDU foam. Again painted.

South Wall- Same as North wall with two layers of "working" overlapping gears. Just like the inside of a watch. Note: overall depth/thickness maybe 6-8"

East Wall- Raised platform. The "control panel" area where "cog characters" will be stationed. These characters will be designed by others.

West Wall- Carved 2.5D "old world" map from HDU foam and painted. Note- all the "Ocean" areas will be covered with chalk board paint.

Top View- Main gear painted on concrete floor. Center spoke to be the conference table. So the center spoke area of the gear is raised up to table height. Most likely plywood and painted.

Ceiling is not shown but it gets overhauled as well with who knows what at this point.

Exploded View- shows how all walls connect to each other.

So there's a lot here to do. I have no other way to price something like this other than time and materials. From my estimates I come up with 41 days of fabrication, 15 days finishing and 10 days install. My shop rate, on the high side, is $50/hr. which puts the gross profit over $26k. I have not even began to calculate materials or even decide which materials would be best. I'm I way off base here or not enough?

I completely realize that this will create all sorts of questions about lack of information to quote accurately, but without writing a novel I'm just looking for approximates. What is this sort of work be worth to you and what should a big company expect to pay? I design and build a lot of unique projects which are really not considered "cabinets" but this one is way out there.

The ideas/designs are my creations and I am the only one quoting this project. However, the marketing design team that I am working with reports to a VP of finance; and there is no way that this guy is going to sign off on this without seeing a couple quotes. I don't know this, just speculation on my part.

As always I would greatly appreciate any input on profit, best materials to use, things to watch out for when making 4ft dia gears turn, etc...

Many thanks..

http://picasaweb.google.com/JeanChristopheHartman/ConferenceRoomCADDrawings#

[scootie]

John,
I think many times we sell ourselves short to the client. How many people could design and create this project? I think you'll find the companies doing this type work as their main forte would charge considerably more. We all have to set a base shop rate and in today's standards for this type work, $50 per hour is on the very low end, you'll pay that rate or more for any work you have done, auto repair, plumbing, etc. (been to the hospital lately, you paid upwards of $1000 per hour). I just had a tooth pulled, one Xray, one shot, one yank, less than 15 minutes time spent on actual 'labor', maybe $25 for film and Novacaine and it cost $200. If you're satisfied with your rates and it pays your expenses and gives you a good profit then you may want to hire out to them on an hourly basis. Let them pay direct for materials plus a fee to you for spec'ing and ordering. Treat it as a General Contractor would and go for it.
Just my opinion and the way I bid on projects that have too many variables to foresee.

Larry
www.elliott-design.net (http://www.elliott-design.net)

[signtist]

John, I only looked at this very briefly.
I would charge just about your figure to simply "Paint" it on the walls!!!!
For 3D work I'd say 4 times that price
John
www.signgraphics1.com (http://www.signgraphics1.com)

[waynelocke]

I would start out asking what their budget is. You can bet they have one and it will clarify a lot. I would then propose to do the design work at an hourly rate with an estimate of the time it will take. There is still a lot of design time in the job. If the gears have to move — how, by hand or motor and many other such issues. Until those are nailed down you can't really give a price and if what they show in the drawings exceeds the budget you have to redesign for that.

Give them no drawings until they commit. You sure don't want to do a lot of design work for them before and if they get other bids. If they are serious and want you they should be willing to pay you. I would also bump your shop rate. If this is the conference room for a large company they are not going to flinch at $75/hr and probably expect that much or more.

[cabnet636]

mister, (man who pays) thank you for considering me for your project, it looks really cool and is right up our alley, how did you find us? really they were great clients and i appreciated the referal!!

now the project i see here is really special and i can see how its intent is to project to a potential client that you are here to do serious business and want this room to reflect that, thanks i am glad you agree my first impression is this is to be a powerful room,

first a bit about my role, when someone calls a fellow like me it is usually because the want a quality product and expect to pay a fairly reasonable price for that, there fore when i am done it should fit right and be exactly what you are hoping to achieve, when ever you come into this room after we are done my goal is that you will say to your self "man am i glad i did this"!!!.

now tell me about your project and how you see it

mumble, mumble, mumble.

ok now we need to talk a bit about budgets as i am sure you have one and in these time we all do.
where are you in that process as we can do this two ways, one i can bid based on how i see it or we can work that together, i am sure you understand it must be profitable in order to obtain success. oh so you do not have a start number, ok if i were to tell you that a project of this nature could start at 35000 and run to 70000 by the time we figure all the parts and artwork would that scare you, no ok then lets get busy with design, i will be billing a small amount to prepare all material list and info for the job and when we are ready my terms will be this.

i am looking forward to being a part of this project lets get busy!!



or, oh your budget is 5000 i do appreciate your calling and can also see that this might be a bit to low to enable the success based on the drawings and spec's provided, it is obvious we are far apart on this would it help if we asked the architect to attend a budget meeting to see if we can bring this to fruition.


7306

[myxpykalix]

Jim,
The simple way to do it is to say "oh your budget is 5000...call me when you add at least one more ZERO to the budget! lol

[cabnet636]

diplomacy, tact and firmness and in that order!!

i have had more than one call me back in when some yahoo went for the pie in the sky and scared the bejesus out of them, sometimes the fools can get your margin up!!

[john_l]

I pretty much fully agree with that James. Good call. I really takes a discussion like that with the buyer to decifer what's going on with some of the larger jobs.

We had a client call us for a large project (not millions but large to us) in Washington DC. We submitted costs that we thought were somewhat over the top... a nice cushion anyway for a month's work. Yet we discovered later that our only other competitor for the work, which was a much smaller company closer to the job, quoted them close to $40K over us on a $60K job.

That turned into one of our best customers. They have referred us for several other local projects.

[john_hartman]

Well I supposed things happened a bit in reverse, as far as budgets. I never did get budgetary figures from them even after asking a couple times. This project originally started a couple of month ago as a Dr. Seuss themed room. I started a design based on being told that the rights were secured but in the end they were not able to acquire. So I billed the company for my design which they paid without question to be able to move into a new theme.

So these designs, which I created, are pretty much completed. I'm the one proposing the ideas and putting them down on paper. No one else. I just have to provide a quote now. This is not a bidding war. Its being able to come up with as much cool stuff as possible the more off-the-wall as possible. I guess if the price is too much then we can scale it back.

It does sound like the general consensus is that my price is low. Incidentally, that 26k figure did not include any materials or subbed out painting and mural work. Its always nice to get others perspective on things. Keep em coming..

[bcammack]

John,

There will be pictures forthcoming, eventually, I hope.