Good Deal?? or stick with Shopbot??

[fernball]

I've been looking at and getting excited about becoming a new shopbot owner, and lurking and learning from these forums. Thanks to everyone that helps to make this such a great resource for everyone.

Just when I'm getting close to buying a 9648 Alpha I happen to find a MultiCam 2003 4' x 8' for sale just a few miles away. What's the chances of that in this rural area!! It has a 3HP Colombo spindle, open loop steppers, 5HP Orion dry rotary vane vacuum pump, and a knowledgeable owner who's willing to offer 20 hours of setup and training time.

Any opinions or ideas about which way to go?

Thanks for the input.

[gc3]

And after the 20hrs then what? I could not find a MultiCam forum but I'm sure they are good machines, industrial iron! There are quite a few for sale on www.exfactory.com (http://www.exfactory.com) and you might be able to compare what you are looking at. I for one would go with the Shopbot...customer service, faster learning curve and of course the 24hr forum for info! Buy hey, what do I know...I have only had a bot since May





Gene Crain
www.plantasymaderas.com (http://www.plantasymaderas.com)

[fernball]

Thanks Gene.

Oh, I forgot to say the price is $14K. To help make the comparison. I'll look at that site for used ones.

[courtney2018]

It might be a good price, but what about support? What if something happens a few months from now. Unless this one guy helps you, since it was his machine, you might be hosed. I'd rather spend alittle more and get one that's new, comes with lots of support. Keep that in mind when buying. The last thing you want to do is spend alot of money and then get left in the dark when something goes wrong.

[gc3]

Dave,
When you link exfactory look in the left nav bar for "cnc under 40K" Have you also checked e-bay...there are a couple nice routers up for bid...e bay>business and industrial>woodworking>used routers professional.
I would still go with Shopbot...





Gene Crain
www.plantasymaderas.com (http://www.plantasymaderas.com)

[mitch_prest]

i am guessing here that the 2003 in the title means it was made in that year.. thats nearly 7 years ago.. a lot can happen in that time and a lot of upgrades have been made to machines.. and software.. 7 years could be a lot of wear.. and you never said what software you get..
a newer machine with software that will have you making thing as soon as you put it together would be my option.. hey.. it was .. just last year.. prs alpha .. would never want anything else.. ok.. maybe a toolchanger.. but only some days..

mitch

[myxpykalix]

When i first got my bot I called tech support when i needed to get it together but since then i don't think i have called in at least 2 years. I don't have problems which speaks to its reliability.

[zeykr]

Multicams are good machines, but do your homework on what that particular model of multicam and it's controller are capable of as there are many variations. Some have very limited Z, and I have seen an older one that could not move x,y and Z at same time (no 3d but then it wasn't intended for it).

Also check into maintenance costs. A friend that has one pays a yearly maint fee to reduce the high per call factory maint required on his late model multicam. His yearly maint is more than my shopbot.

It may well be very much worth the money, just do your homework to know what you are getting.

[coach]

I remember a Saturday afternoon at about 1:00 I had an issue and needed to complete a job for Monday A.M.
I left a message with tech support and was phoned back in about 2 hours and we got things straightened out to finish the job.
I have been bailed out by the forum but no internet at the shop.

[rb99]

Multicams are the real deal I would love to have one.

Very very well made, and much more solid and precise than SB.

I would buy one over SB if the deal was right.

Call up Multicam and see what they say about support, parts etc.

Check out the major sign making sights for CNC and search Multicams there.

RIB

[thewoodcrafter]

What are you using the machine for?

If it is cabinets, it will cost you $20,000 for software compared to $1295 for the SB Link.

[joe]

Dave,

Ken's post about Z height should be considered. Multicam has a forum for their users but isn't open to the public.

I'd buy one in a heart beat. It's a step up in quality. These are extremely high quality macines.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[cnc_works]

I dunno, Dave. First of all I second pretty well everything said already and I love my Shopbot.

BUT, $14K for heavy iron, well, not the heaviest, but pretty serious. And some pretty nice add-ons as well. If it passed my initial appraisal, amateur as it may be, I would consider paying an expert to appraise its condition and educate me about its capabilities for my use. It could have been beat to death in those 6 years, but if not it may be a good gamble. Even if you had to put a few thou into it to bring it to tip top shape, you would still be well under a similar SB investment.

Lots of variables, but I wouldn't let it slip by without careful consideration.

Donn

[Gary Campbell]

Dave...
I hope you reailized you just walked into the Ford dealership and asked about buying a used Chevy!
Not very many unbiased opinions here.

That said, this would compare to the purchase of a used vehicle. The condition of the machine and its price compared to book value are very important to determine if its a good deal or not. Another point to consider is your experience and ability to repair the machine should it need repairs. You didnt say which model the machine was, but I see some on the MultiCam site that have less capability than the current PRSalphas, in spite of what Richard alludes to above.

Since many CNC machines, both large and small, never cut a panel due to a steep learing curve, it may be best to invest a little more to insure you will be able to operate the machine. THis applies to the used or a new machine. Many of the CNC mfgrs require a training class prior to delivery. Highly reccommended. Good Luck with your decision.
Gary

[rb99]

Hey man, I am only eluding that Multicam is a really really good machine.

If you spend time learning about the machine you will be able to fix it like people fix their SB's.

I am not disagreeing that they offer different models, but there is a learning curve to SB as well, and also many limitations...

What model is it?

RIB

[ed_lang]

Take a look at my current article....

I looked at the Series 3000 MultiCams and love them. The machine that would do what I wanted was in the low $40K range. This had an ATC as well. 5'X5' table.

In the end, I bought another ShopBot, PRSalpha48. Yes I went from a 4'X8' to a 4'X4' but I don't cut sheets, but solid wood. I plan to buy a second machine in the spring or sooner if needed. This way I can run two different jobs at the same time or have a backup if one goes down. Never had my first ShopBot to go down on me, but it is a machine and one day it will do so. Same with my laser engravers. I started with one and now have two side by side.

I was not interested in used big iron due to the cost of bringing it back up to current standards.

ShopBot support has not been a concern at all. I have asked a question on Sunday and received the answer later that Sunday. I didn't expect any reply until some time Monday.

Another big advantage to me is ShopBot is only 3 hours drive from my shop. I could even leave right now at 10:30 and get parts if I needed them that bad.

In talking with my MultiCam rep, we looked at some used machines... He was able to point out the weak points and what to watch out for... All of that experience would have paid off for me if I went used. Like anything, KNOW for yourself what you are getting before releasing your hard earned money!

My mind is at rest with the new ShopBot that I am scheduled to pick up on the 23rd of this month. I expect to be running on Monday the 26th.

Good luck-

Let us know what you did.

[richards]

A CNC machine is not rocket science. What do you have? Three axes, a controller, and some software.

Look at the quality of the machines. Since I have never looked closely at a MultiCam, I can't help you in evaluating quality; but, a CNC machine is mostly a bunch of mechanical parts that is driven by an electronic controller.

Look at the mechanical parts. Determine whether YOU can keep things going or whether YOU might need help from other users or the factory.

IF YOU can't keep things going, then evaluate the help provided by others.

IF the help from others is good or great, factor that into the equation.

Personally, I don't see how a machine that is priced near the price of a Shopbot could ever offer much more than a Shopbot. I would tend to think that the people at Shopbot have proven that they are willing to give support and that the Shopbot Forum is willing to help. Because I have no experience with MultiCam, I can't tell you what to expect from them. Give them a call. Ask them some questions. Ask them for referrals in YOUR area. Check things out.

Only YOU can decide whether YOU have the required expertise to run a CNC machine without factory support.

Personally, I would choose the Shopbot machine. Ted, and those that work for him, have proven to me that they care and that they have most of the answers. The questions that they have been unable to answer have been answered on the Shopbot Forum. Even though I have been a critic of Shopbot, Ted has remained a gentleman and has fairly answered my posts. I can't say the same for other companies. Since I am one who pushes more than most, I expect to be shown the door and told to never come back. Ted and those who work with him have allowed me to say whatever I felt that I needed to say without barring me from the forum. That is rare - very, very rare. That is the reason that I wholeheartedly recommend Shopbot whenever I'm asked which machine to buy that costs less than $50,000.

The Shopbot is NOT a perfect machine, but, so far, I have heard of no machine that is perfect, especially in the price range of a new or used Shopbot.

[donclifton]

As for the multicam machine, they build great machines. As for there help or support, I was at the ISA show in Orlando one year and Multicam was there cutting out little rocking chairs for kids. I ask the sales person if I could have the file for the chair and he said he would email it to me. I then told him I did not have a Multicam but an old gerber He then ripped up the paper he had written my email address on. I could have be a prospective customer and Gerber's cost a lot more than Multicam's. That kind of tells me what kind of company they are. I have called Shopbot with questions and told them I do not own a Bot and they help me and were friendly doing so.

[signtist]

The Multcam sounds like a good deal to me.
There a much more expensive machine for a reason.
Their good.
I bought my Shopbot mostly due to this site.
I'm glad I did. It does everything I want and more!

[myxpykalix]

Dave,
If you buy a Shopbot you will be welcomed into the "Brotherhood of the bot" and along with teaching you the secret handshake and taking the oath you will be privvy to some of the best knowledge and experts and secret information only shared with "Brother botters"....

However if you buy something different you will be SHUNNED, and BANNED, and BLACKLISTED and never allowed in our club! lol...

[jerry_stanek]

hey jack I heard you are considering a Cammaster.

[joe]

It's true MultiCam's forum is exclusive. One must assume those purchasing equipment selling above 50K aren't setting up in a garage for part time work. I know a half dozen of these machines in action, all of which run without continuious updates for fixes. There rock solid.

But I'm not sure Dave needs or will take advantage of that kind of equipment. He may be satisfied with a SB.

Either way, he's welcome to have lots of fun.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[myxpykalix]

jerry you must be confusing me with someone else, i'm not in the market for anything else.

[fernball]

Thanks for your responses. You each offer a unique perspective that provides a different angle on the situation.

Jack - I was wondering if I married a MultiCam whether I could still attend the Shopbot pot-lucks.

Richard - The Multicam is a model A103 (like the 1000 series?). It was working when I happened to stop by and see it, cutting some type of expensive foam. So I know it it is a happening thing, productive now to the owner.

Joe, Mike, Ed, Richard and others, you bring up some great points. What am I trying to do with it, does it work for my purposes? The answer is that I am getting into this with zippo knowledge and experience, and even though I have lots of ideas I'm danged if I know even what I'm going to end up producing exactly. I just want to get this started with the best piece of equipment I can afford. I love new equipment, but I'd rather have a used Mercedes than a new Pinto, maybe.

So, what I am hearing is that support is paramount, and shopbot gets top marks from this crowd. That's a great testament to Shopbot. The owner did gripe about how you have to go through the MultiCam rep for parts etc, and it took a little work to get a response sometimes.

I've got some research to do and decisions to make, and thanks to all for your help.

Dave

[rb99]

http://www.multicam.com/eng/Products/1000series.html

Does it have any options?


RIB

[toych]

Dave, being a newbie with little experience my personal opinion is to go with the brand with the biggest support network, forum ,customer support and genuinely great people willing to share every bit of their knowledge with you.

The bargain price of the machine you are looking at has to weighed against all of these other factors which are very hard to put a price on.

As for big iron machines, unless you have a warranty are you going to be able to affect any repairs that may be required in the future.

Big iron usually means a bigger repair bill, specialized training and equipment to repair.

As former contractor to a big, big iron manufacturer very few of our invoices have fewer than five digits to the left of the decimal point! ( no that is not why I am a FORMER contractor).

Yes there are more robust machines out there but I have never second guessed my purchase of a Shopbot.

Darren

[fernball]

Richard, it comes with visualmill for software, and a perpendicular end of table fixture, along with an assortment of collets and the 5 hp vacuum pump. Spare z axis screw and dust skirts. I count the advice and training of the local owner as valuable.

Darren, good point, as I couldn't handle anything like that. If I can't get in and do it myself it won't work.

Dave

[beacon14]

A Pinto? Ouch, that hurts. Just the fact that the ShopBot community is still talking to you after being insulted like that should tell you something.

Speaking as someone who used to have to drive his Dad's Pinto every day, I think we at least should be considered more like a Taurus. Not the fanciest, biggest, fastest, or certainly the showiest vehicle out there, but it's good, basic transportation that will get you where you need to go, while being reasonable to maintain. Definitely not a Pinto.

[dakers]

I bought a new Pinto in Germany in the Army the first year the Pinto and Vega came out. Bought sight unseen. it was metallic blue. Worst car i ever had. the motor vibrated so much the vacuum hoses would fall off and the car would not run correctly.
Only you with enough time (if you have time) and good input can determine if the Multi cam will work for you or the shopbot. you have to have peace of mind. What i liked about our new shop bot was that there was no uncertainties with it. we almost bought a gerber sabre at auction for a bit over $11,000 then heard it needed about $8,000 in repairs if i remember correctly. plus it was 3phase. The shopbot is running like a mercedes but we use small router bits with it so it does not work as hard as it could. We had expectations and they were met with no surprises.

[jimbo]

Im not insulted i own a shopbot
It could of been worse he could of said a chevy or dodge

[knight_toolworks]

this machine is slower then the newest shopbot. it does not have as much z travel or clearance either.

[GlenP]

Boy Dave you sure have stirred up a pot and getting some good advice. I had a guy in my shop this spring to demo the bot to. I have a PRS Standard with a router on it. He was not impressed and told me it was not much of a machine. I beg to differ. I have had my standard for 2 years and it has never let me down, had some minor issues which we are ironing out but like a good right man it has been there when I needed it. Multicam is nice but like alot of "bigger iron" machines they come with some extra egos and $$$. If you are seriously thinking of buying the used machine perhaps asking the current owner to let you rent some time on it to make sure it will cut what you want, how you want before you commit to a purchase. I can't speak for others but shopbot support will be by your side during and after your warranty runs up. I haven't heard of anyone ever being charged to call in and talk to Frank or Ryan at shopbot support with a issue. Alot of those big iron support centers require you to purchase after warranty support if you need to call in for tech help. Good luck and even if you buy the other machine your are still welcome here.

[rb99]

Accurately cutting at 7.5" per second and jogging at 10" per second is not exactly slow. This is not the same kind of 7.5". Search out posts about SB flex and parts being different sizes because of it.
The Z has 6" of travel and 4.5" of clearance. It would also be very very stiff and accurate.

Rigidity. It won't flex.
It also runs on very high end linear rails, not the low end BWC bearings, that are only as rigid as the bolts that goes through them...

Aluminum is not great for rigid structures, like the SB gantry. The solid gantry, and everything else...wow, to even try to argue that SB is in the same league as this machine is baffling to me.

As far as expensive repairs go, if you flew SB out to your shop to fix the problems you have, would it be feasible? You fix the SB because you have learned how. The same principle applies here.

Anyhow, those who know CNC know the difference, and as nice and helpful as everyone is here on this board, it doesn't change the fact that the SB and the Multicam are at completely different levels.

RIB

[Gary Campbell]

Richard...
Check your facts. The specs you quote are the exact ones I was reffering to above. My PRSalpha cuts 30-40% faster and jogs 300% faster than the 1000 model. And yes it IS the same 7.5" I am talking about. I agree about the posts about machine flex, I have made many of them. However, proper toolpath strategy all but eliminates part size error.

Every machine experiences flex when cutting force is applied. The high end machines use a laser positioning system to counteract errors in positional accuracy while cutting. I dont think MultiCam is among them.

Cant dissagree on the linear rails vs V rails & wheels. Its what makes lesser cost CNC cost less.

I would like you to check the specs for the MultiCam. It claims to have a "custom engineered, extruded aluminum gantry", which is what current ShopBots are shipping with. They may be engineered to 10 times the strength as SB's, but are aluminum, none the less.

Any one of us can have SB fly out and repair our machines, it is our option. It is, however, nice to have a lower cost alternative to be able to repair our machines ourselves. When those expensive repairs are mandatory to retain factory warrantee, it causes me some concern.

These 2 machine brands, and of course, many others, are on different levels, both features and price. In very few cases, when you compare speed, accuracy and rigidity and temper those results with the dollars spent to get the results, will the field appear to be level.

The fact that this comparison is being made,is, by its very mature, a testament to ShopBots capabilities. No one has mentioned what model Dave is considering, and MultiCam doesnt publish prices, so a fair comparision would be difficult. He may have found a very good deal.

Your posts dont leave me with the impression that your machine is cutting up to its potential. I have looked at a good number of machines and in many cases maintenence items (mine included) were the culprit behind poor cut quality at higher speeds.

Let's be thankful that this discussion can take place here. Many machine forums do not allow non owners to post. Nor do they allow any discussion of competing products. I think this thread appreciated my machine by a couple grand. After learning more about the capabilities of a higher priced machine, it surely cant go down!

Gary

[rb99]

Richard...
Check your facts. The specs you quote are the exact ones I was reffering to above. My PRSalpha cuts 30-40% faster and jogs 300% faster than the 1000 model. And yes it IS the same 7.5" I am talking about. I agree about the posts about machine flex, I have made many of them. However, proper toolpath strategy all but eliminates part size error.

Reply: What I mean is: Multicam's 7.5 won't be all "flexy" like SB' 7.5". Speed does not mean anything if the machine is flexing and cutting crappy. If you owned the Multicam you would not have to spend energy and time with tricky toolpath strategies. How much do you cut at 13-14 inches per second? Do you always jog at 30 inches per second? Maximum on paper and actual usable speeds are different I bet.

Every machine experiences flex when cutting force is applied. The high end machines use a laser positioning system to counteract errors in positional accuracy while cutting. I dont think MultiCam is among them.

Reply: Either is SB. But that does not mean Multicam is not more rigid than SB. I know they do have optical readers and laser cutters, and all kinds of options...they may offer this...

I would like you to check the specs for the MultiCam. It claims to have a "custom engineered, extruded aluminum gantry", which is what current ShopBots are shipping with. They may be engineered to 10 times the strength as SB's, but are aluminum, none the less.

Reply: I thought they where steel. They are not that constructo aluminum though... solid and rigid.

Any one of us can have SB fly out and repair our machines, it is our option. It is, however, nice to have a lower cost alternative to be able to repair our machines ourselves. When those expensive repairs are mandatory to retain factory warrantee, it causes me some concern.

Reply: His is used so it is not a concern here. However I have 2 things to say. One: He won't need to constantly fix his machine. They are set up and stay that way. Two: If he spends the same amount of time as SB users do fixing and tweaking their machines he will be very good at repairing his machine as well. Also the Multicam forum will be a wealth of information.

These 2 machine brands, and of course, many others, are on different levels, both features and price. In very few cases, when you compare speed, accuracy and rigidity and temper those results with the dollars spent to get the results, will the field appear to be level.

Reply: His will be 1000's less than SB. But the accuracy, plus the software, plus the linear system, plus the rigidity, plus the vacuum system, plus the thing on the end (I am not sure if it is a tool changer or an indexer) plus the extra Z plus the spindle...

The fact that this comparison is being made,is, by its very mature, a testament to ShopBots capabilities. No one has mentioned what model Dave is considering, and MultiCam doesnt publish prices, so a fair comparision would be difficult. He may have found a very good deal.

Reply: He has mentioned it is a model A103, which he said a 1000 series. He is buying it used. SB is good at marketing, and sell a lower end machine. Lots of newbies, hobbyists etc. (many serious pro users as well...) Good for SB and good for the end users. But if you have serious work, saving 20K on the purchase and having all the little tweaks and bugs may not be a fair savings. I lost a $600 per hour steady contract many years ago because my inferior machine was not performing the way it was sold to me. My customer bought a nice used AXYZ Automation machine and took the contract away from me. Had my machine been doing what I had bought it to do, I would have kept the work.

Your posts dont leave me with the impression that your machine is cutting up to its potential. I have looked at a good number of machines and in many cases maintenence items (mine included) were the culprit behind poor cut quality at higher speeds.

Reply: My SB is working as well as it can. I have seen many of the other machines working and they are the real deal! I like SB and what they have done and can do. But if I had a choice...

I would bet there are many very serious users on the Multicam forum, and, they keep to themselves making big money running their big machines day and night.

I don't know why everyone is so defensive about the SB. Especially those who have limited experience with CNC, or Multicam type machines. Shopbot is what it is, and it is not what it is not. He gets it for much less (20K less?) than a new SB set up-and it is all set up, ready to go, with the experienced owner just down the street! He gets the machine, the vacuum, the 2nd Z, the software, the support from the owner, the thing on the end, the spindle, all for 14K! Come on!
Just get a look at this machine-it is a beauty!
http://www.multicam.com/eng/Products/1000series.html

PS- I really like my SB! It is a great tool I could not do without. It helps me out all the time.

Cheers,

RIB

[joe]

The situation isn't really a comparison between a Pinto and Mercedes. If you've only familiar the Pinto and never seen a Benz it would be difficult to make a cogent comparison. I'm suspecious most of those posting haven't been behind the controlls of a MC and disadvantaged in giving critical advice.

As I've stated earlier, in this case a SB may be a reasonable consideration.

Let me apologize in advance.

[gene]

Dave ,
I have a 48x96 prt alpha with a spindle upgraded to 7:21 motors roots vac hold down all single phase with software bits dust collector everything turn key 19,000 firm a very good low hour machine. Will put it on a truck tomorrow! I can meet it at your shop set it up and teach you to cut what you want. Email me at cabinetsplusofaugusta@yahoo.com (mailto:cabinetsplusofaugusta@yahoo.com) and we can work out the details..Gene

[wberminio]

I hear of all the issues (and of course solutions) with Shopbot.I never hear of any problems or issues with another other CNC big iron or otherwise.
Could it be that ONLY Shopbot has issues?or maybe
it's because we are allowed open discussions ,to learn and grow.And Ted Hall is not intimidated by criticism, but uses it as an opportunity to learn and grow also.

All I know that without Shopbot I would never have survived the leap to CNC!It has changed everything as far as my work is concerned-opening up new areas I never thought possible.It is fun to work again!

Is Shopbot the best on the market?
All I know it works very,very well for me!

Erminio

[chiloquinruss]

Dave, the best advice I can give is that the SB forum is an open forum. The comments you are getting are from some very serious cnc users. Take a peak at the post count directly under each of the commentors name. Most are over 1,000 posts! I lurked here for a long time before getting my bot and when I finally got it, the support from the forum and ShopBot were overwhelming. EVERY time I hit a brick wall I simply have to ask here and the answers come pouring in. If the purchase is for fun then SB is the answer, if it's for your livelyhood then the answer should be for support regardless of price. Which brand has the best support? Your livelyhood will depend on it. Just my 2 cents worth but I love my bot and this forum.
Russ

[gundog]

I don't have the knowledge some of these guys have in fact I am a rank amature so I won't try and advise you. I will tell you about my experience I knew very little about the CNC world and I was able to read and learn from this site and the tutorials on how to operate my machine. I don't know of any other machines that have this suport. I am guessing you are a CNC newbie or you probably would not have asked for advice. The suport on here and from SB is worth a bunch to me. Good luck on your purchase.

Mike

[steve_crow]

I have bought two used tables over the last few years, one very old Multicam table and one 8-year old AXYZ table, both to which I have added the ShopBot drive systems. The tables are large and incredibly strong with raised gantries and linear bearings all around and an overall solidity which is quite astounding. I chose to stay with the ShopBot drive systems for all the reasons that have been mentioned above but no amount of software or support can equal the strength and tightness of these tables and I would say it's definitely worth considering. But if the Multicam drive system ever gets too problematic then swap it out for the ShopBot system and you'll have it all. It's an unbelievably good combination.

Steve