Used bot hidden cost

[brucehiggins]

I recently bought a used shopbot and got a surprise today when I tried to upgrade the part wizard software that came with it to partworks. I was told that the software was not transferable and I would have to pay the full price of partworks. That was $300 extra. Something to be aware of if you are shopping used.

[thewoodcrafter]

It is pretty much like that with all software sold today.

[wberminio]

$300.00!
I was told $400.00 for Partworks upgrade

[brucehiggins]

Erminio,
It was $700. $300 more than the $400 upgrade cost that I thought I would have to pay.

[wberminio]

Thanks Bruce

That's what I thought.I got my Bot just before Partworks was included with the new Bots.If I had
know, I may have waited to place my order.

Erminio

[Brady Watson]

From the ShopBot Page (http://www.shopbottools.com/software_v1.htm)

(#11008) ShopBot PartWorks and PartWorks 3D; INCLUDED WITH ALL NEW SHOPBOTS; PRICE $750 (when sold separately)
(#11006) Full PartWorks upgrade from PartWizard, for existing ShopBot Owners; PRICE $400

-B

[brucehiggins]

Brady,
I read that and since I am a ShopBot owner I thought I got the upgrade price. Not so.
Bruce

[beacon14]

??? If you own a ShopBot are you not considered a ShopBot owner?

[brucehiggins]

Let's see... I exist. I own a ShopBot which also exists. It seems like I qualify as an existing ShopBot owner no matter how you look at it.

[Brady Watson]

I think your name or your company's name must be on the license in order to get the upgrade price, since you would have paid for the licensing fee if you bought the machine new. Since the PartWizard license is non-transferrable as a condition of DelCAM's terms, NOT ShopBot's terms, as I understand it, you have to pay the extra ante to put the license in your name.

-B

[brucehiggins]

Changing the wording on the website would probably be a good idea in that case. And, yes, that is what I was told.

[gwilson]

When I bought mine I had downloaded the demo of Part Wizard and Vcarve Pro, realized I like Vcarve Pro better. I bought Vcarve Pro, I think I installed Part Wizard but do not remeber opening the program since then.
Gerald W

[harryball]

Brady is right, you must realize that ShopBot does not control the software licensing and DelCAM, IMHO, has paranoid licensing practices and software policies making it difficult to transfer ownerships... but that's just my opinion.

In any case, Shopbot should probably clarify on their website that it is meant for Original Owners if that is in fact the case.

/RB

[bill]

Maybe a "work-a-round" would be to have the owner, before the sale is final, request the upgrade??? That would be legal (kinda)?

[nocreek]

The ambiguity of Partworks/3d pricing is also evident on the Developers/OEM page of the Shop Bot site. If you read this website, blogs and forums, carefully SB seems to be committed to still supporting "old school", like many of the original SB, type "builders". When you get to the Developers page it looks like you can easily buy part #15314 for $1295.00 (PRTv4g with 4 geckos, power supply, mounted in a case w/ wago connectors) and then if you read the "bottom" of the page it looks like you can add Partworks/3d for $400 as an add-on. Despite the wording on that page I was told that I would still need to pay, very curtly by SB sales, $700 for part works. No salesmanship at all if you contact SB sales by web based means.... So instead I bought my geckos, bob, orientals, a case, mach3, vectric products, aluminum extrusion, v-rollers, rack and pinion direct from other sources. The great forum is still available here, but I think a lot of the real innovation is happening "open" source elsewhere ... Ready to be flamed ... but I probably would have gone with SB if my couple of email exchanges had at least been affable on their part.

[gerryv]

Re: That would be legal (kinda). Actually, it would be totally legal I'd bet on. You are the legal owner,until the split second you sell. As consumers, we need to start thinking more like the corporate lieyers do. There is nothing legally or morally wrong with purchasing an upgrade as long as you are still the owner, if that's what's offered. Also, there is one reason and one reason only for making an ownership transfer or warranty or whatever non-transferable which is ... what we vote for. there is, after all, a difference between value and greed and in the end, it's the consumers who establish the line.

[Gary Campbell]

Guys...
I think the ambiguity may be a result not reading the software licensing agreements. (most of which are out of SB"s control) When we purchased our machine I understood that the software was licensed to our company, for our computer. Since we have 2 design computers and another for controlling the SB, buying 3 sets would have been very expensive. Both ShopBot and Vectric informed us that we would be able to use the software licensed in the company name on all 3 company computers.

IF I were to sell the machine I would assume that I am entitled to include the SB control software with the machine, and the cost of re registering same would be that of the new owner. This re registration cost then should entitle the new owner to the same support as we have had access to. I dont really think that any of our design software developers would extend that same courtesy.

Most software developers today refer to themselves as the "owner" of the software and the end user as a "registered" or "licensed user". That is what we signed up for when we installed their software. (I know we all read that fine print)
I purchased and activated 3 copies of M$ Windows on these 3 computers, I am happy that SB and Vectric afforded us a little lattitude. SB has been both generous and timely with downloadable operating software upgrades at no charge, and have changed the bundled design software to an extremely user friendly vendor in Vectric. Other than the fact that everyone wants to save a buck or two, I can see no justifyable reason that they would extend upgrade discounts to anyone other than the original purchaser. And if that original purchaser upgraded and sold, then I would assume that the same fees would apply as before. Just my $.02
Gary

[GlenP]

Good Morning everyone. Bruce it is unfortunate that you have to upgrade at full cost, but have to say if you haven't bought it yet, do it as soon as you can. You won't regret it. Vcarve and cut 3d or the shopbot version is powerful and worth every penny. You will recover your money in the first few jobs because of the extra design benefits you can give your projects and therefore increase your products value. Consider it a tool that will never need to be sharpened. Alot of other design software can costs thousands more. Also the support from vectric is top notch. Much like shopbot.
Good Luck with your machine and have fun.
Glen

[gerryv]

Good point Gary. Actually, it wasn't the Shopbot folks I was aiming the comment at. It was a general statement about the software double-dipping that occurs when ANY hardware/software vendor in any industry sells the consumer a system which requires both (hardware/software) to be useable in any practical way and then says you can't resell that same system capability.

It often seems we're heading in a direction where all too often the good folks who design, improve and work hard to give us good value in their products get short-circuited by certain "professionals" whose primary focus is "more profit, now and continuously", opening the door to still further off-shore competition and destroying the best efforts of the real contributors within. By the way, my misspelling of lawyer in my previous post was, of course, accidental - should have used my spell checker :-)

[myxpykalix]

Gerald,
I looked it up in the dictionary and your spelling "corporate lieyers" is infact a alternate spelling and meaning for the word..lol

[brucehiggins]

Yes Glen, I bought it. I have no doubt it will pay for itself. I am sure there was no intention to mislead - it just looks like you can update for $400 from what you read on the website and that's what I had planned on. Anyway, I am excited to get started 'botting' this weekend. My machine is set up and I will make the plenum/spoilboard tonight. I was surprised that just laying the piece of ultralight on the base table with the Fein Turbo III hooked up there was good enough suction to make it very hard to move a piece of 2'x2' plywood layed down on the ultralight. That with nothing covering the rest of the mdf and no plenum pattern cut yet or edges sealed. My 1st project is to make some shop cabinets - my shop shrunk with the addition of the shopbot so I need to be neater and more organized.

[ted]

Hello Bruce and others,

We’re a bit late commenting here, but I hope you can appreciate that this thread has been a topic of serious conversation at ShopBot and across the waters with Vectric (the company which produces PartWorks, our new design software). We have found that Vectric like ShopBot is comfortable with offering both re-purchase owners of ShopBots as well as original owners the same opportunity to upgrade to PartWorks. And we’ll put that offering in place now so that anyone who owns a ShopBot can purchase PartWorks/PartWorks3D for $400. As well, for the ShopBotters who previously purchased PartWorks at the full price as second owners, we will provide a ShopBot credit for the $300 difference between that price and the upgrade price.

I certainly concur with one of the comments above about the importance of being able to sell a modern hardware item to someone else along with the software on which the hardware depends. And, I would just point out that there has never been a question that the purchaser of a used ShopBot would have full and continuing access to upgrades (free) to ShopBot Control Software. Our Control Software is more capable today than ever and will run part files generated by practically any design system, whether that system is outputting ShopBot code or g-code. Thus, as far as software for running the ShopBot is concerned, those who purchased a used ShopBot have always had available to them at no cost, our current state-of-the art CNC software and its wide range of built-in features and capabilities.

Where the complexity enters all this is with the design software. Over the years we have worked hard to provide ShopBot purchasers with the best design software that we could manage to package with the tool. We have worked with software companies to help develop this software for ShopBotters, but both we and our customers are bound by the terms of the licensing agreements of the software developer. We have always viewed the design software provided with our tools as an added-value to the purchaser, something to help them get easily and quickly to work with their tools, rather than a part of the tool itself.

The licensing terms for the Part Wizard software, our previous design software, required re-purchasers of ShopBots to also purchase a transfer of ownership of the software from Delcam if they wanted to update the ownership and be eligible for updates. We initially kept this same policy in effect with our transition to the new PartWorks design software. And over the last few months, our sales group has been applying this policy in interacting with purchasers of used ShopBots.

But as indicated above, after recent discussion with Vectric we are now able to enthusiastically make the same upgrade opportunity available to all ShopBot owners.

We will need to develop some sort of certification for the transfer of a ShopBot and related software so that we can confirm who owns the software and the upgrade rights that go with it. This issue will come up again down the road for second owners who receive the PartWorks software, so it is important that we put a consistent policy in place for subsequent transfers because we want to maintain a similar spirit of encouragement. At this time, for ShopBotters who did not purchase their tools from us and would like the PartWorks upgrade, we will just expect them to: 1) furnish the serial number from their control board; and, 2) provide a note from the previous owner indicating they have transferred ownership of the software to the purchaser.

This all sounds a bit legalistic, but I hope that people appreciate that in the long run we are trying to keep the price of the software down by fairly distributing its costs to purchasers and re-purchasers of ShopBots. In the final analysis, whether included with a ShopBot, or purchased at any price, PartWorks is a great design tool and a real bargain. I tend not to gush about things, but confess I find this Vectric software very exciting and am really pleased we are now able to provide it to every ShopBot owner at the same price.

Ted Hall, ShopBot Tools

[jeepers94]

As one who will be looking to purchase either a new bot or late model pre-owned bot in the next 6 months,I am happy to hear this.I may have to buy new to get the prs alpha I want anyway. I am
looking at used,since it might come with upgrades to both the machine and software that the current owner took care of.I hope to be joing the ShopBot family very soon,thanks mainly to this forum! From what I can see,Vectric software is very robust,and a must for the bot owner.

[gerryv]

As a non-American, I offer that THIS kind of business philosophy is what builds "the great American company" (or Canadian for that matter). A few thousand more like this would, I think, help trigger a resurgence of the manufacturing sector. Hats off to you.

[brucehiggins]

Thank you Ted, ShopBot Tools and Vectric! The fact that used ShopBots sell quickly is a testiment to the value and quality of the tool. This step shows that ShopBot and Vectric are in for the long haul, not the quick profit. You did the right thing to increase my product loyalty big time.
Bruce

[benchmark]

Hey what about us guys that own Vcarve Pro and Cut 3D, when I purchased a PRSAlpha I was told it was not possible to buy it without Partworks...so I had to pay twice ?


Paul

[paco]

7563

[wberminio]

You said it all ,Paco

[jbworden]

Ted,

I am really impressed by the way you and Vectric are handling the software issue. It's not at all common in these times that a company will take such good care of it's customers AFTER they have made the purchase. Congratulations are due to Shopbot and Vectric for your customer oriented attitude.

However I do have a bit of a quibble with one of the statements you made in your response. You said, "We have always viewed the design software provided with our tools as an added-value to the purchaser, something to help them get easily and quickly to work with their tools, rather than a part of the tool itself." This is a very hardware-centric statement and one that I personally believe is not true. I also believe the evidence shows that you no longer believe that way either if you ever did.

The most elaborate Shopbot ever made is pretty useless without the software required to make it usable. I believe you recognize that and that is why you are including the software you have with each Shopbot purchased. Are there upgrades to the level of software you include? Of course there are but for most of us what you have included is all we'll ever need. But no matter whether we use the included software or upgrade it to some $40,000 gee whiz system with fireworks and dancing girls the software is an integral part of the Shopbot system no less than the stepper motors and the control box.

The point of this whole diatribe is that a Shopbot is not just a piece of machinery. It is a system that requires both machinery and software to function. As delivered it's a pretty darned good system and we thank you for that. Please don't ever start believing what you said about the software not being part of the tool. That would be a pretty sad day for all of us.

Keep up the good work.

Jim

[br928]

Jim,

The DESIGN software is not needed to make the ShopBot usable. Only the CONTROL software is needed to make the machine work. The latest version of the CONTROL software is always available for download from the main webpage. ShopBot has included a DESIGN software package as an added-value to the purchaser. PartWizard and now the Vetric is included but many DESIGN software packages can be used to output ShopBot or G-Code to be interpreted by the CONTROL software. The DESIGN software was included to help the new purchaser get started more quickly with out having to go buy it separately. I have paid to upgrade my PartWizard DESIGN software at least once but have never had to pay to upgrade the CONTROL software. I bought VCarvePro over a year ago and have been using it as my main design software since.

[jbworden]

Stan,

I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make. Yes you CAN use a Shopbot with only the the control software. You can type any command or series of commands into the control console but how much work can you really get done if that was the ONLY way to enter tool path commands? My point is not that a specific piece of design software in required but that SOME piece of design software is required. Of course Shopbot cannot include a copy of Enroute with every system but they almost have to include some design software with every system or no one but a very dedicated cadre of individuals would buy it. If we had to type each individual command in the toolpath into a text editor to create a toolpath file most of us would either quit using it or hire an expensive programmer to take weeks to create the sofisticated toolpath files that PartWorks and even Part Wizard can create in minutes.

The only point I'm trying to make, and I'm wagering (the board won't let me use the more common word) that regardless of what he said Ted knows this on some level, the Shopbot is a system that has to include the hardware AND the software, both the control software and design software. The design software is not just an "added-value" it is integral to the Shopbot system. The fact that he has chosen to include a very capable design package like PartWorks tells me that he's well aware of the relationship. Sure there are (more than) a few owners that will upgrade the design software but I'm wagering there's not a single one of us that is running their Shopbot with NO design software. Even if the only thing we use PartWorks (or in my case VCarve) for is toolpath generation we are using design software to create the shapes we cut.

Okay. Time to get off my soapbox and get back to botting.

Jim

[bcammack]

None of our programs were created via PartWizard, Partworks, or any other CAM software. I wrote them in the sbedit editor and tested them with a copy of sb3 on my desktop in preview mode.

[bstern]

Same here. For my normal use I wrote my own program to generate shopbot code.

The Shopbot control software is most important in increasing capabilities of the machine. Shopbot does this without charge.

On the rare occasion I need to use Parts-Wizard, I sometimes think I could could write machine code faster. I keep plugging away as I hope I can learn it to the point it will be time saver eventually.

What is the opinion for doing 2D parts on Part-Works is it easier then Parts-Wizard?

[jeffreymcgrew]

Jim, I do think you're being a little unfair. There are many CNC routers available on the market that don't come with any sort of Design software at all, and require you to buy it separately. Also it's not like people haven't written their own exporters to shopbot code from other applications, like Rhino and such.

I mean, you don't expect your nice laser printer to come with a copy of Adobe's Creative Suite or Microsoft Office for free do you just because that's what most people use to make documents for it?

[scott_smith]

Hey! I want my rebate! Had Part wizard for years, mostly used the DXF converter. Bought VC Wizard. Upgraded to VC Pro. Only part file software I use anymore. Awesome software! I’d do it again and recommend it to anyone.
Just kidding about the rebate…. Send me a SB hat and we’ll call it even.
Scott

[richards]

I think that Ted is getting an undeserved scolding. As others have stated, the Control Software is included in the price of the machine and updates are completely free, but the basic Design Software that is included with the machine is not a Shopbot product nor does Shopbot have any real control over the companies that license that software.

My machine came with PartWizard II. Since then I've purchased a license for V-Carve Pro. In my opinion, V-Carve Pro is a vastly superior product, but I don't expect Shopbot to maintain or update it for me.

Ted could easily have left out the Design Software and given instead a list of recommended software - just as Shopbot gives a recommendation for compatible computer hardware. But to give the customer added value (and possibly to simplify initial customer hand-holding), he bundled some basic Design Software with the machine. That was an added value bonus to me which was not expected, but certainly appreciated.

[bleeth]

Jim: Unless you buy a Thermwood and wish to use e-cabinets (which anyone can have for free) I would challenge you to name one other CNC manufacturer that gives you any software design package as robust as Part Wizard, let alone V-carve. IMHO you sound like the person who after buying a sandwich wants to know why you didn't get the free dessert you wanted.
My table saw came with a garbage blade, as did my chop saw, and virtually every other tool I own. I had to buy glue for my edgebander and biscuits for my Lamello. My computer only came with Office if I bought it, and it darn sure didn't come with Autocad or Artcam Pro. My last new truck didn't even come with a full tank of gas.
I didn't expect any different either.
Despite certain philosophical differences I have had with Ted over the years that I have owned my Shopbot, a sincere recognition of his most excellent campaign to give every buyer the biggest value for their dollar and the extreme success he has had in bringing CNC to the typical woodworking entreprenuer is well deserved.
Enjoy the software design bonus you got and enjoy the time it gives you to earn some money with your machine while you figure out the most effective software to buy for your own market that will help you get to the next step.

[jeepers94]

I own a couple of computer controlled machines for sign making that did come with highend design and control software! They include a usb dongle so the software can be on more than one computer,but only able to run on one at a time.
What most of you forget is incuded software is never FREE! Its price is incuded into the purchase price! I would think ShopBot would see a drop in sales without the included software.To show just what software means to sales,look at the Compucarve/CarveWright.The software is the reason 2/3 of the people buy it.
True,I don't always use the software included with my machines,after I am more familiar with the capabilities and shortcimings of the machine.
That is when you upgrade to a higher end software package.By the way,my latest chopsaw came with a top quality blade.True most do not,but that is where a manufacturer can really prove to a customer they go above and beyond the other guys!Which is what ShopBot would like to show you!