Attn: Ron Varella

[myxpykalix]

Hello Ron,
There was a post of yours quoted from 1999:
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/30/110.html Where you talk about making small house signs as a fundraiser and i thought this might help make some money for my grandchildrens school and i wanted to ask a couple of questions regarding that.
When you made these signs were these just simple vcarved signs?
The price was just for the name and address and it cut out but it didn't include any type of painting of the sign of the letters or numbers did it? If so how did you do it on a mass scale so it was profitable?

[ron_varela]

Simple I did my homework first.
I knew what it cost me to make one.
The signs were engraved with a 90 degree v bit with the Ariel Font.
All signs were stained painted and varnished.
The profit was 9.00 per sign and at 120 a day.
Making signs is simple but doing a school is not, first you need to do your homework to see what that school is involved in Sports-Band-Cheerleading ect.
See if it has a P.T.A and a group for fundraising, call the school and ask who is in charge of fundraising and contact that person and get there first and last name.
Make a sign for that person Example “The Jones” and make it look nice; remember if you make any others they must all look the same.
Make an appointment with that person but give no details over the phone just in person.
Get the number of students that attend that school.
Get with your local lumber companies to see if they will donate scrape or broken lumber for a fundraiser.
Call your local radio station to see if they will give you a free plug for fundraising, most will give you 10 to 15 seconds and some will give you more for a worthy cause.
Now the presentation: when you meet ask how much in the past did they make on fund raising per event, you now know what you can offer them.
It is safe to say they did not make $15.00 per item, now have your numbers ready.
If the school has 300 students you offer you might be able to generate them $4,500 or more at no cost to them and it is possible for that amount to triple.
Look at your city limit sign to get your numbers and just think about 10 to 20 percent of that, it is not impossible for the number to be higher but you are only working with one school in there district.
If that school turns you down go to the next one and so on until you have the opportunity to do one, when you complete that school count on all the ones that turned you away to be calling you.
Now times have changed and so have schools and there polices, you might have to go thru the school superintendent to due fundraising, here you do the same thing but in larger numbers, we are now talking about all the schools in that district and it will run in the thousands.
When I did the fundraiser for my daughters school it was from the heart and never for profit, but do the math and you can make a fair living.
My last project a few years back was a Collage, I was driving down the road and seen collage students washing cars and trucks for $.5.00 so I stopped and had my truck washed and struck up a conversation with them, some where trying to make money to go to cheerleading finals and some for band, I offered them the same deal I did for the house wives working for me, took them less then 3 days to make the money they needed.
Over the years I have been asked by shopbotters just what it is I do and make with my machine, well it’s everything that can be made and sold in my area, I do not reach out for the big mass production jobs but all the little jobs around here.
If you were to do 10 and 15 dollars jobs and did 10 to 20 a day that’s 200.00 a day and 6,000 a month.
My cost to make this Tiger is 1.00 and I just sold 200 to a flea market for 4.00 each and he is selling them for 10.00 and sold out in 1 weekend and now has an order for 300 more.


7846

I made these 5 years ago and my cost was 5.00 and I sell to flea markets and mom and pop shops for 10.00 and have sold to date 4,653 of them.


7847

I have 100s of small items I sell to many different people that resell them for a higher profit, I just take orders and fill there needs.
It is not hard to make money you just need to make an effort to go out and get work and make it worth there wild to buy from you.

You can make and sell anything for fundraisers

Ron

[myxpykalix]

Thanks ron, thats nothing, if not inspirational to make you want to get out and start pumping out some signs.

Previously I would tend to breeze thru the posts here in "sign making" because I wasn't necessarily interested in that. So this question is for you or any of the other sign makers.

Assuming the design for a sign is a simple oval that is Vcarved with the name and address. How do you paint the letters and numbers and not bleed paint all over?

My thought was to carve your letters, spray paint into the letters and numbers with paint. Then go back and take off a few thousandths off the face to cut away the overspray. Then go back and spray a polyurethane to cover it all. Am i in the ballpark?

[ron_varela]

What I did is use a water base paint called Applebee from wal-mart in there arts and crafts section and used an air brush to cover the letters.
Then use a blow dryer to dry them, then ran them thru a planner to remove 1/16 inch and did a quick sanding to smooth them.
Then used a router table with a round over bit then stained them and let dry and shot some varnish on them.
You can just brush the paint on them and use an orbital sander to remove the excess paint and stain and varnish them.

If you use other types of paint without sealing the wood first you will end up with something like this.


7848

Some say you can spray your material with polyurethane then paint the letters then wipe clean the excess paint

[drodda]

Ron,

This post caught my attention. I have just a quick question about the clock shelf that you said cost you $5.00. Did you sell it in a knockdown form or did you put them together and clear coat them? How long did it take you to cut that out?

The reason I ask is my wife is always selling small items and leters to people. She will tell me I need to make this or that. I always ask what we made on the pieces and it seems more time, materials, and labor is put out than money coming in on the small single projects. I have been on her to sell things in a larger quantity so that I can justify stopping what I'm doing and building what she needs.

I appreciate you sharing your experiencein detail with this on the forum.

[ron_varela]

Dave in order to make any decent money one needs to determine if the job is worth it.
Take the clock your talking about, at first glance you would expect it was all made from a shopbot, only the sides and back where cut on the machine and the legs and pegs were made on the side over the years from scrap material.
If I had to make one it would take less the 10 minutes and it’s out the door, no stain no paint just plain.
If it was to be stained or finished the cost goes up another 5.00 and 30 minutes drying time.
You need to keep cost next to nothing if you plan on making any type of money, you need to buy scrap lumber or do what I did for a few weekends, go to where they are building homes and get all you want free, I went and got 15 pickups full of scraps and if I was to add up all the money I made from it I bet I could have bought 10 shopbots, scrap lumber is free for the taking, if it is a custom home being built you can bet there will be some oak and other fine material you might be able to get.
Now what can you do with the scraps? Well take a 2x4 you can make 1x2s 2x2 3x2, you can make Molding – Trim, just about anything you can buy at a lumber yard you can make if you have the right scraps.
Now you have this scrap wood make what the wife wants for sale and what would be your cost? Time right.
Well when you’re making the small stuff for your wife make other things from the scrap wood like this

7849
A desk for your shop or home or just sell it



7850

7851

7852

Everything you see on this page was all made from free scrap and sold several times, if someone wanted one I just made another one from the scraps that were precut when I made the first one.
My trick to making things fast is keep notes on what you need to make it, a material list, I make the list as I make a new item so it tells me how long it took and cost of hardware.
I also keep parts to make another one if needed fast, when you have free time make all the parts you need to complete something and stack it on a rack or shelf, and then you just put it together in a few minutes or hours depending on what you’re making.
The desk only took me 30 minutes to make
The Nic Nac was 5 minutes
The chairs 15 minutes to cut and 5 minutes to assemble.
This is the first time I have ever posted any of my work on the forum because for one to make any type of money one needs to have there own ideas and keep it a secret until they make all the can on it.
Since I am now retired at 50 and spend most of my time playing with the grandkids I have more time to spend doing what I love best, helping other shopbotters.
Since I sold my business I am not competing in trying to make sales so I will tell all my secrets on how I got to this point.
Go get your material free
Make everything you can with what you got.
Instead of spending all your time worrying about what you should make just make everything it will sell.
Make things people want, I will bet everyone is looking for something for there home or office.
Hire kids in your neighbor hood to sell house signs on commission, some mothers might even want in on it when they see there kids making more in 1 day then they do in a week.
Plan all your holidays and make what you want to sell for that month, start taking orders to fill like for Christmas yard art and Halloween.
Make nice hearts for Valentines Day.
Get with Day Care Centers and make toys for the kids.
Get with cabinets shops to see if you can do odd jobs for them.
Make wood screen doors for homes.
Make window screens for homes with nice patterns to match.
Take out ads in papers about what you can make.
Get with churches and make deals on benches like this


7853

or something engraved.
Make lawn furniture and chairs, make picnic tables.
Make home items, picture frames, end tables, coffee tables.
I know your saying why make all this stuff right, because it sells, if it is already made it’s a good chance you will sell it.
Do you buy things you see or do you order things to be made?
Make items during the week and sell on the weekends.
Get you a booth at a flea market and sell, have someone at the flea market sell for you and pay a commission, take all you make to small towns that have arts and craft shows.
Have flyers made and put on doors, kids will do it for a fair price or spend the day doing it yourself.
If you have a busy road put some items out front and the price for them so they can read it, put just 1 or 2 items out and rotate items every 7 days.
You will be surprised by the sales you make, if you sold say the picnic table and someone stops by to see if you still have it just offer to make them a new one.
So does all this work? Well it worked for me and many of the members on my server, it is all up to you on how hard you are willing to go to make a sale, you did buy a shopbot to do this right? So start up your machine and get to making dust and money.
I promise not to post any more pictures but I am sure everyone got a good idea on what can be done with free material.

Ron

[handh]

Ron,
I'm just wandering how on earth you can make the tiger above for 1.00. I don't see how you can do a picture frame and also cut out the tiger and paint it and all and have only 1 dollar in it, please enlighting me.

[gwilson]

Ron,
I have been doing something simalar, I have been making them for camping friends. They love having their names on their RV's (new market for the fundraisers). I use 2 basic designs, ellispe and rectangular, 2 basic font to choose from. Everything preprogramed, just change the name. I am curious what size you are making your signs. I am holding mine to 15" long x 10 1/2" tall 3/4" thick usually out of pine. As far as the painting goes, either stain or if no stain I use minwax sanding sealer to seal the wood prior to cutting and painting. This is what works for me, got idea from guys doing this prior to photo v carve.
Gerald

[ron_varela]

Jeff only money out of my pocket to make the tiger is electric which cost 82.3 cents a kilowatt hour and I can cut 80 tigers an hour on the shopbot, I do this by stacking 4 sheets of material, this allows me to cut 4 at a time.
All the material is free scraps and the black background is 12x12 floor tile I picked up free.
All wood to make the frames are from scrap wood I picked up free
So if I did the math right the total cost to me to make 4 is really 13 cents.
My time is 65.00 and hour and I can do 17 an hour which come to 4.00 each
This leaves me with 87 cents from the dollar which I use toward new router bits, sanding disk, glue, nails for my gun, extra electric from other tools.
Some of the others I have done for about a 1.00
http://www.rngengravers.com/Free%20Server/Scrollwork/Scroll%20Work.html

Ron

[ron_varela]

Gerald I made mine form 1x6 1x8 1x12 for mounting to the house and 2x6 2x8 2x12 for hanging from a chain.
I would use 2 boards and just chain one under the other name on top address on the bottom.
Or I would use ½ Baltic birch with a nice pattern.

Ron

[coolhammerman]

Ron:
I've done a lot of scroll saw work and the items you list in your post above look very much like they came from scroll saw patterns. How do you cut them on the bot? Special bit, straight or "V"? I would love to do some on my PRT 4896 bot.
Ron B

[ron_varela]

Ron depending on the detail you want you can use 1/16 straight bits and 1/8 straight bits or a combo of both.
I try to use an 1/8 so not to break to many 1/16 bits, the trick to not breaking them is the speed you cut.
The smaller the size the smaller the bit, I use to do scroll saw work until I bought a shopbot, I still use my scroll saw now and then and I am working on a project that I have over 600 hours in it, it is something the wife wanted for a long time and I will present it to her on our 30th wedding anniversary so don’t tell her.

Ron

[myxpykalix]

Ron, those prices seem awful low...are you sure you don't have a bunch of chinese workers locked up in your basement? LOL

I've reread the posts a couple times but i don't see this...how did you make the tiger? Is that a painted stencil type thing? It almost looks like an inlay but i'm sure it was simpler than that?

If it is some type of scrollwork wouldn't you have to make some type of "negitive" of what you want to cover with paint?

[ron_varela]

Jack it is scroll work done on a shopbot.
The only thing I can say is that is the cost, with everything free and only paying for electric that is my out of pocket expence to make it.My labor is included in the price for sale.

Ron

[drodda]

Ron,

Thanks for the answers. I will have to revisit this once I get caught up on current and late projects. The thought of building something before a customer is screaming "where's my project" is very appealing to me. Lately I always seem to be behind the wave and it keeps gaining speed.

Great information though,

-D

[ron_varela]

Hi Dave: My name is Nichole Varela and my father has told me that it is time I took over his business, for no reason he just got up and told my mother he quit, his comment was out with the old and in with the new. I hope I can help in any way I can.
I have read your question and I am not clear what you are asking.

Nichole
R&G Engravers
www.rngengravers.com (http://www.rngengravers.com)

[ron_varela]

Dave I am so sorry the wave you made pushed me so fast I miss read your comment, Father in the back ground laughing

Nichole

[drodda]

Nichole,

Welcome to the forum. We are here to help also so if you ever need anything just ask. I was just wanting to let Ron know that I appreciated his very detailed answer and that the actual amount the item cost or time spent was not the message. We tend to get lost in the details and forget the general idea that are mentioned on these posts. The old can't see the forest through the trees thing I guess. I always wind down my day by reading posts on this forum. Never fails someone posts something that makes me think. I think this is what makes the shopbot comunity so good.

Now you need to quit reading this forum and build something to sell! Go make your father proud!

-D

[ron_varela]

Dave that’s what my father said, great minds think the same.
I can not see how my father spend all day working in the shop then comes in and spends hours helping others and then post here on the forum, his comment on out with the old and in with the new was just that, he thinks me and my sister are fresh minds and can contribute to the forum so here is my first post.
My husband is in the concrete business and my father gave us an idea on how to improve the look of driveways and patios, make patterns with the shopbot and apply it to the concrete.
Take a sheet of plywood and make a brick pattern, lay it on a patio or driveway and use a hand router using a mason bit to make the marks, my husband made a form at work and tried it and it worked.
In the last few days I made several patterns that look like rock and stone and it cut great and now have several company’s very interested.
Here is something we are working on engraved in concrete

7854

Now I know the meaning with out with the old and in with the new, my father is not saying he is old but to take old ways of doing things and find new ways of doing them.
He has a strong belief in helping others succeed in making a business like he did, take what he knows and teaches you and apply it and the sky is the limit.
Me and my husband now spend or free time going thru his files he made over the years and can’t believe he has not posted them here, when we asked him he said he was thinking of making a cd and selling it for $50.00 to shopbotters but never had time to do anything.
Me and my sister might just do that, go thru all his files and make a cd for the people here if they wanted it. From what we have seen so far is he has everything one can only dream of having.

Nichole

[den73160]

Nichole

If you do make a CD I would be interested in it.

[myxpykalix]

Hello!
Taking your idea above and asking questions to clarify, because it does sound interesting...

In the picture above with that or similar design would you carve the design down into the plywood so that when it is applied to the wet concrete it would create the features that were then raised on the surface? Or would you do some type of "area clear" around the features so that they would stick above the surface of the wood and therefore be stamped into the concrete?

I have seen in the past where a concrete company has taken a form to wet concrete and made it look like a "cobblestone" pattern like individual bricks but not any kind of intricate pattern and i'm confused about your description.
The above is based on working with wet concrete and your description kind of sounded like you would do this pattern in hard concrete?
Thanks....

[ron_varela]

Jack it is done on old driveways and patio's and is not a stamp.

PS: Just found a folder with 80,000 logos in eps format that looks to cover just about every company old and new

Nichole

[scottm48]

Hi Nichole,

If you and sister make such a CD I would be interested in purchasing it too!

[ron_varela]

!!!WOW!!! looks like it will not be 1 cd but 4 to 5 DVDS and that only from one of his 15 500 gig hard drives

Nichole

[randy]

This is sounding more and more interesting.

Randy

[bakerkr]

Hi Nichole -

Welcome!

You have my attention on the CD's/ DVD's.

Kevin

[ron_varela]

Randy your right, your post was at November 02, 2007 - 4:47 pm: and my sister was November 01, 2007 - 5:20 pm: in that time we have received 2,786 emails from my father’s server and only 6 from the forum.
Now we have to spend this weekend working on getting out orders.
I now wish my sister never asked my father to teach her.

Gean S Varela
RNG Engravers stands for
Ron Nichole Gean Engravers

Hear is what my sister offered
9,949 eps files
2,987 relief files
24,976 dxf files
736 movies on different programs
80,000 logos
3,602 plans
My father is teaching an Artcam class in San Marcos Texas this weekend and I will be video recording it,This will be posted on our server for download

Gean

[ron_varela]

Let me say this first “I hate Dave Rosenbleeth: did you call the physic hot line the time my girls called me?
Ok here it is my last post for good and the questions everyone is asking so I can play golf.

1.

[ron_varela]

From the many emails I have received regarding the cd I was going to make
My father informed me I should check all the eps and dxf files and make sure of there origin, he said it would not be right to be giving files to others if it belongs to someone else.
He had me read this post
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/312/25018.html?1193262249

My fathers question to me was do anyone have the right to these files so he sent me here
http://www.copyright.gov/

Since I have very little knowledge of these laws I called a friend who is a lawyer to ask, I sent him to the link above have him read the post and this is he comments.
If a person or persons post pictures or files on the internet and has a link for the files to be downloaded the person or person should show some type of Terms of Agreement or a License Agreement included with the files.
He said this is an every going problem on the internet, one makes or shows plans or images and someone will use or alter them, there are many on going disputes on who owns them.
He said the main problem is ownership, If you pay somewhere on line and download anything and follow the terms of there agreement you as the consumer have the right to make or sell such items as per the terms of the agreement.
Now this person or persons make and sell such items on the open market and get a letter from a company or an attorney to cease and desist because you have no license agreement from them to do so, so here lies the problem, you bought it from one person with a license agreement only to find out someone else has the same product and idea.
Now you have 2 people fighting over ownership and both have a license agreement, then after many months of legal arguments you find out the 2 parties have downloaded the same file or files from 2 different sites on the internet, now you have 4 parties involved.
Now the owners of the site need to prove who is the owner of the file or files that are completely identical in nature. After it is decided who is the owner of the file come the law suit for damages, 3 parties had all suffered loss of profit.
The 2 parties that bought the files from different site will not be charged with any copyright violations.
He said there was a simple case of song rights violations , a person wrote a song and made a recording and sold it on the market, then someone hears it and made the same recording and sold it on the market, now the original owner who made it first proves he is the original author and lost the law suit. Why?
The songs where the same word for word, the second recording had added 4 others words to it, so this should have been a clear case of copyright, the judge ruled that just because they were the same they did not sound the same, the original recording was a soft love song, the second recording was a hard rock melody.

So with this advice I am going to ask my father what files are his and what he made and add them to the cd
My father showed me some sites that have the exact same files and all say they are the authors of the files and are original.
With many clipart cds out for sale one can only imagine where or who is the original author or owner.
I am making this post because my father said I should check the water before I dive in, and I do not wish to do anything wrong or get others in trouble. So I ask you shopbotters, am I doing the right thing by offering my fathers files to you here? Should I try to locate the original owners of each and every file before I make this cd.
Any advice you can offer will be appreciated, my father said this is my problem because I posted here and I have to live with my decisions.
I am now afraid if I have just one file that is not his or it came from a site or cd with no way of confirming the owner or license agreement it might come back and bite me.

Gean

[randy]

Gean,

First, I am not a lawyer so my comments are worth nothing from a legal standpoint. Second, you have done the right thing in consulting a lawyer.

I have followed this issue for several years and try to follow the rule that if I don't own clear title to something I don't share it. As much as I would like to get my hands the files, if you are not clear about the origin or ownership, keep them to yourself. You will sleep better at night.

Good luck!
Randy

[ron_varela]

I feel like a bird brain, my father ask how the cd was going and how come its taking so long to make it and smiled, we explained our concern about copyrights and if we are going to get in trouble making the cd, my father burned a cd in 5 minutes and said it done now do what you want with it.
He has folder called DXFEPS and in it has folders

Mine
Others
Shopbotters
Internet
CDS
Work to be done
Work Made
Free Plans
Copyrighted
Files not to make
Files to be checked

He burned the folder “Mine”
He had us going nuts for the last 4 days had us read for hours had us get legal advice and him and my mother just sat there smiling all the time while we did this.
All he had to do is just say burn this and offer it, well its all my fault for not asking and that is why they said nothing, to teach us a lesson so we know what where doing.
He said if we spent more time listing then thinking we would learn things faster, This was a good lesson because now we understand the difference between ownership of what is ours and others and the do’s and don’t.
He said we even posted it wrong and was to confusing for others to follow, it should have read

“I am making a cd of my father’s work he did over the last 10 years and if anyone is interested email for a list of what will be on it”

So I and my sister wish to apologies for any post that might have been wrong and confusing.

Nichole/Gean

[Forum Admin]

Time to take this private. The forum gladly accepts ads for items of interest to ShopBotters for sale - preferably in the For Sale topic. However, discussions, negotiations and delivery aggreeents should go privately between seller and buyer.