Price

[wcsg]

I have a guy who wants some simple ovals cut 15"x18" out of 3/16"clear acrylic. He supplies the material and i'll cut. What are most of you charging for something simple. quantities of 1/2 dozen, and maybe more later down the road. I know guys usually charge $100-$150 hourly but simple ovals might be easier by the piece.

[jhicks]

Erik, this is a difficult subject and I'm sure you'll get a wide variety of opinions but before one considers price, consider these factors.
1) That 3/16" acrylic probably costs around $200.00+ per sheet. What happens if you make a bad cut? Who eats the material?
2) What bit will you use and how will you dial in the most effective speed, feed, depth, cut direction,and holddowns? Without some experimentation you risk that customer material. so how much will time material, new bits, and hold down verification take?
3) What was the customer doing for these before he found you? Cutting himself, by hand, by router, or sourcing elsewhere? If he was making it himself, how long did it take him? Thats the value he understands so if he took 30 minutes to cut and finish, and you take 5, He's saving a lot of time and trouble if he is paying you for 25 minutes even if it only takes you 5 to cut it. That machine cost something and he doesn't have one or the cost to learn, house, and maintain it.
4) Finish and edge condition? Polished, rough, or whatever you agree to will take more time and its best to understand that before running or quoting it.
I try to never use time but rather the value of the piece. For example if these are going into an expensive finished piece, the value is higher than in a cheap outdoor cover plate but no matter what they are used for ask him how he has it done now, what he has budgeted for the job, abd clarify the issues of set up fixtures if needed, edge finish, scrap, and see if you can get some samples from a supplier to verify cuts before running his stock. That alone will probably take you an hour or so of experimentation so someone needs to pay for that as well or write it off as your educational expense.
Finally you may have some "added value" distributors that sell the stock. Ask them what they would charge or search the net to see what prevailing prices look like.
In the end, start high but not before you go through all the details so he understands its a bit more than a simple, place, cut, remove and try to create value representing "All your costs" and time rather than 5 minutes at $x.00/ minute.
At this stage the selling skill and customer confidence is probably more important than price anyway. Once he feels you have considered all the details and understand the job, hes likely to trust you to do it and give you the order. After all, if he diesn't he will need to take more time to find someone else and many would'nt touch customer supplied material or handle the small job in the 1st place. I would think a lot charge $100.00 set up plus $50.00/ each would be in the range of acceptability but lots of folks would disagree with me.
Price is the last step in negotiating not the 1st.
Just check gemini foam letters on the web and see what they cost for a true perspective on value pricing.

[wcsg]

3/16" sheet will be about $65.00, but he's supplying the material. No finished edge as it's a piece of a larger component. I'm in San Diego, so there is a CNC (Water, Laser, Router)at almost every corner. He's a business friend of mine, so I'm just looking for a price to throw out. Maybe there is a plactic fabricator here that visits this forum, my best bet might to wait until Monday and call a local acrylic fab shop.

[jhicks]

Guess if there is that much competition, he should have no problem finding a bargain but it sounds like you are driving your own price down before you even start. Maybe he should get it done down the freeway in Mexico.
If you just want to help out a friend, I guess it should be between $50.00 and free depending on how you value your expertise and time.
I'm not surprised you disagree with my opinion as most do when it comes to value pricing vs low prices but whatever floats your boat.
Good Luck and have fun.

[joe]

I agree with Jerry on this one.

You won't do friends a favor by keeping the prices at the margin. I wouldn't ever expect my friends to do that when I call on their services. Even if they are a little higher, I'm glad to pay. That's one way to define a good friend.

Who wants to be known for cheeeep? Once you start down that road the outcome is predictable. It's really hard to get those price up.

J
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[tuck]

Erik, last week I cut (6) 5" x 8" ovals, 3/16" plex for a client I do a lot of work for. I charged him $10.00 each. File time was 2 minutes, cut time was 5 minutes or less. $60.00 for less than 10 minutes time? That's not bad in my book. (He supplied the plex.)

[wcsg]

MArk,

This oval thing is throwing me off somewhat, I think I'll look at it and treat it like a 18" 3/16" letter. I threw out the number $25.00 a piece and I supply material. I'll see what happens.

Jerry & Joe thx for your input. I'm not looking at doing a job for cheap as I like & tend to look at each job and ask myself, "What is this worth?" rather than a time or hourly charge.

But yes there a lot of CNC's here in San Diego and San Diego County. Price's here are not cheap even though there is huge population of CNC's. The average hourly rate seems to be $125.00 for supplied material cutting. The sign companies out here produce some of the most amazing illuminated and non illuminated dimensional signs I've ever seen. Tijuanna, Mexico is about 20 mintues from my front door but I have yet to hear anyone locally having work (routing, neon etc)produced there and bringing it back here in the states, but more quite the opposite.

Anyway thx for all the input and taking the time to respond

[jhicks]

Eric & Mark, Just for your consideration, if you do use the concept of this being a STANDARD letter O, and search the web, you can find prices for 19" letters in 3/16" at around $24.00. The thing to keep in mind is that these letters are run in a repetitive production environment with predesigned and debugged files so its not quite the same as small run custom to spec order types.(at least not in terms of value or cost)
http://signlettersonline.
Regardless, I hope you get profitable orders and do well on them in your chosen niche.

[wcsg]

I take back what I said on prices in San Diego. I just got a price from a major fabricator for 12

$40.00 material charge
$35.00 Labor
$12.50 set up labor

Jeez, thats cheeeeeep

[tuck]

Well, I'm looking pretty good @ $60.00 for 6 small ones with material supplied. :D

[paco]

Erik,

each of those 3/16" thick 15"x18" oval may take something in between 1 and 2 minutes to cut (since there's no details, chuck in a strong short tool; no 1/8" but rather 1/4" or bigger). You should have 'em cut in 15 minutes or so. Add a setup fee and a CAD/CAM time. I believe the whole job should be done in about 45 minutes maximum or get sronger coffee!

You won't dull out a bit with a such small run...

If you're more lucky that I am, this customer won't come in with some 15-1/4" X 18-1/4" blanks or something alike!

How do you charge for 45 minutes or so?

[drodda]

Erik,
I would give the "Friend" the number of the shop that you got the quote from and not waste your time with it then.

Just a thought?

[jhicks]

Some jobs just arent worth the effort but others make no sense at all. If we assume your $65.00/ sheet is correct then your yield is 15 per sheet maximum. If you only cut/charge for 12 /sheet that's a material cost per unit of $4.33/ ea thats $52.00 and if you charge for the excess thats $5.41/ea X 12 = $65.00 raw material alone so the $40.00 material charge doesn't add up UNLESS the supplier is a distributor with much better material costs, he has scrap off cuts to get rid of, charges only for material used, is running in Mexico, or simply doesn't know what he's doing.
So with your prevailing rate of $125.00/ hr and a 2 minute cut file thats $4.16/2 minute cut x 12 or $50.00 vs $35.00?.
Sometimes its best to walk away but we all need to make these decisions based on what we need, what we can learn, and what our other options are. This one doesn't look like a winner so maybe the time spent on this one is better chalked up to education. Since you've already spent over the $35 minutes/dollars just trying to see if it can work. I guess thats a complete course on why not to cut circles or maybe why to search out more lucrative custom niches.
Best of luck, now go to the beach and think about that fantastic San Diego weather and custom skate boards or surfboard blanks.

One last thought. Just because you found someone who will bury the price, doesn't mean your client will find that same supplier. You can always quote what really works for you and let the customer decide since you've already done your homework. Besides, he likes you and folks always like to do business with those they trust rather than an unknown supplier.

[robtown]

I second Dave's suggestion. I've run all piecemill work outta my shop. Not worth it at all, it's counter productive, making pennies while ignoring dollars.

It always starts like this: "you can use your machine in it's downtime and cut my materials and make some bucks" , but it always turns into "gee, can't you do that any cheaper", and "if I bring you materials on Monday, can you have my parts for me on Weds?" (regardless of workload, remember the downtime thing above?), then there's "hey, since you can get it cheaper and delivered, why don't you just buy the material and I'll get you back" which always leads to " what are these extra hours here for material handling?"

I had one guy who wanted to watch the process start to finish, stood there with a calculator and added cycle times up, and at the end of 4 hours wanted to know why he was getting charged for 4 hours when the machine cycle times only added up to a little under three, even though he stood in my shop for over 4 hours observing and was aware of every second spent organizing, making toolpaths, cutting, and material handling.

I guess I just haven't come across the right customer yet, but most that come to me just wanting parts cut, I send away now.

[drodda]

If you added up the time it took for the knowledgeable people on this forum (I'm not saying that I'm Knowledgeable) to respond to this question and the time that you have spent on R&D of these ovals then this is already in the Red before you ever start your machine. It did not take me long to realize that I did not need to take every job offered to me and that I only spend time bidding the ones that look like my bidding time will get compensated for along with the work to complete the job.

With that said I do favors for freinds but those get fit in between my schedule not theirs. I usually do these for a simple Thanks. You need to figure out if this is a favor or a job?

Just my 3 cents,


Dave

[wcsg]

It's funny, when I first got my bot I actually made a wholesale price list (Dimensional Lettering) and drove all over town passing it out to sign shops and Display makers to make some extra money between jobs. I got probably 2 calls out of 100 price lists passed out. The pricing was based upon competing companies who make a living doing wholesale. But after the 2 calls I got..The time, material cost did not match up well with the return as Jerry points out "Makes no sense". So I pretty much scrapped that idea as I was getting busy anyway for it, then I just told myself that I would just cut for other people with their material If I ever would do it.

This company who gave me that price just throws me for a loop, how the hell do they make money? And how long should I have expected that order to take? That's just crazy. I always look at it like, charge a very good price and get a few jobs rather than work many jobs for a cheap price.

[jhicks]

Congratulations Eric, you have just graduated from the "school of hard knocks". As is always the case, just because you have the diploma, doesn't insure your ultimate success. You now need to determine which path to follow and which one makes sense to you. The one thing for certain is you can't follow your instincts and passion if you can't afford to stay in businesss. So its either a hobby or a business and as you make that transition, you will be better equipped to make business decisions and come closer to success. Have fun and BOT ON!
That's the rewarding part about the forum.
Free advice is always available and occasionally helpful. I hope is some small way this exchange has been helpful.
Caution! just because you found it "cheaper" doesn't mean you have "lost the order" a tiny bit of attention and concern for the customers need is frequently the "added value" that makes your "higher price" worth the value. if not, don't feel bad and move on to the next one.

[tuck]

Interesting thread. "Wholesale" can be good or bad, depending on how you handle it. Henry Ford got rich when he decided to "make my cars affordable for the everyday man, and not just for the rich folk." On the other hand, when I get stuck in a traffic jam around Atlanta, I curse him and his decision!

I myself may be called "cheap" because I do wholesale work for small sign shops that need CNC services. I price the work so that we can all make money. It works good for me because "they" do all of the footwork, i.e., meet with the customers, go to the job sites (if necessary), do the design, haggle over the design, colors, get the permits, etc. When all is said and done, "they" supply me the file, material(s) and paints and say "DO IT!"

Yesterday was a prime example, guys. I finished and delivered (2) 4' x 8' oval routed HDU signs, ready for install. I charged "them" $1,700.00 to cut and paint the 2 signs + 2 mounting templates. Now, I can tell you,...I can PROMISE YOU, that I didn't have but maybe 8 hours in the whole thing! That's right, cut and paint! $1,700.00 divided by 8 = $212.50 per hour!!! Anyone gonna tell me that's not good money? Again, they supplied all materials as well as the file and did all the footwork.

As with anything, you learn. I have learned over the past few years (since I got my Bot), who I can do business with and who I can't,...who pays and who doesn't,...who is reasonable and who isn't. It has given me GREAT pleasure to "fire" a few of my customers for slow/no pay or being big "pains in the azz"! LOL!

In the 4 years I've been in business for myself with my Bot, probably the most important thing I've learned is "CASH ON DELIVERY" for new customers. No checks, no promises, no deals. Greenbacks only. I've been burned, but for less than $1,000.00 total during 4 years. You can bet your hat rack that I won't get burned again! As I said, you learn.

Didn't mean to ramble. Hope this helps someone!

Peace! :-)

Mark

[drodda]

Leaving money on the table for your work is only hurting yourself in the long run. Sure $212.50 is a decent hourly wage but $425.00 is a better wage. I am not going to get Joe started in this thread also. I will just say that most people don't factor all that is involved in doing the wholesale stuff to make themselves feel better about the price they have gotten. In the end the books don't lie. Either you make money or you don't. It's that simple. If you finish with your last job and feel you really need the next job to keep the lights on your not making money.

[tuck]

Dave, (BTW, you can call me Mark), if I'm leaving money on the table, I ain't missing it too bad. At least not yet! Also, Joe, if you're reading this, chime on in, friend! I truly respect your experience and expertise.

The last job I had working for "the man" paid $18.00 per. hour, 4 years ago. That was good wages around here back then. Now I am averaging over 9 times that per hour and not having to work near as hard, but I'm leaving money on the table???

Well,...screw me! Somebody clue me in!!! :D

[mikejohn]

I believe you can get a PRT shopbot, with a router, computer, bits etc., up and running for $10,000.
Amortised over 5 years is $2000 a year.
Run your shopbot 1 hour a day for 50 weeks a year (250 hours), you need to charge $8 an hour for the shopbot.
Work in a workshop in you back yard, 'rent' isn't going to come to much.
If your set up time is 10 minutes for the 1 hour cut, you are only working 10 minutes, the Shopbot is working the full hour.
A man living on his own can only drink a certain amount of beer!
So surely $212.50 is an extremely good wage?
If you are not a single person business, with cleaners to pay, along with receptionist, maybe secretary, in a downtown workshop, car park, high local taxes, accountants, designers etc, $212.50 does look slim.

Erik, what would you be doing with your time, and the Shopbot, if you weren't doing this?
If you would be earning money, then the price for the ovals needs to reflect what you could have earned.
If the shopbot was quiet, and you were sweeping up, then any profit is more money in your pocket than you would have had.

It's not about image, pricing formulae, what the next man charges.
it's how much ends up in your pocket at the end of the day.
And only you can decide if that is enough or not.

Of course, there are other opinions


.............Mike

[wcsg]

My overhead is as low as it can get.

Shopbot in my garage!!!

So any little bit of money for me mean higher profit. I'm already busy putting the SB to work on the electric signs I do plus now adding capabilities of doing Braille ADA and dimensional lettering and signs. So in between my work anyone needing cutting done is just an extra bonus.

But at the same time I don't wanna take a phone call, spend some setup time, order material and have to pick it up....cut it out (10 minutes)and come up with just an extra $20.00-$40.00. As a single man shop it's a waste of my time. I will have spent setup time, ordering time, and make arrangemnt time for that person to pick up the finished product or my time for dropping it off.

This would be a job I consider "Many jobs with less money" But on the other hand, if I wasn't already involded in a trade of doing signs that make me the real money then I wouldn't have a problem with extra lunch money


Getting back to my original post.

3/16" 4'x8' Clear Cyro Acrylic = $85.00
avg. wholesale charge for ovals = $15.00 each
@ quantity of 6 = $90.00
Profit = $5.00 with a bonus of 3/4 sheet left
time spent total 1-1.5 hours

But having them supply the material
time spent= 1 hours
profit = $90.00

Keep in mind I have not had my coffee yet this morning...so I may have to edit this later to make more sense

[andyb]

Don't want to hijack Erik's thread here but I have a question on a price for cutting pine blanks. This is my first BIG job and don’t want to under price myself or price myself out of the job. I've been asked to quote a job for cutting 7.5x24x.75 blanks with a profile. Finished product is 6x23. Customer supplies the blanks. The job so far is for 10,000+ pieces with a potential for a WHOLE lot more. I’ve talked to a couple of people offline and have gotten a price range of $.60 to $1.32 each. I think the customer sells them for around $3.65 each. I questimate that I can cut 40 pieces an hour and at .60 for 40 is only $24. What is the best way to go about pricing the job? Here is a picture of the profile they are looking for.


7945

[paco]

Pre-cut blanks = vacuum JIG (lets hope the blanks will be flat) = designing time = worth money

Profile made on router table while Bot cutout shapes... right?!

You may cut even more in an hour but it's all about handling and JIG designing quality... I'd say.

Different part of the world = different pricing... but I'd tend toward $1.32 each... AT LEAST. Now don't you (or this customer) compare hand cut on bandsaw VS Bot cut; look closely...

Beware of those 10 000's order; I'd say to quote from a more conservative amount until you know this cu$tomer... unless he's coming with all his 10 000 at it's first batch (that is 10 000 deliver; not like 500 each month 'til 10 000).

From your pix, it's white; if it's going to be paint, wouldn't it be better to make 'em from MDF or maybe Extira SHEET good (4' X 8')? Now that would be productive... just not solid Pine... rather Pine fiber!

[andyb]

Paco,
The pine blanks are stain grade. From the sample I have and the marks on the board, I would have to say it was cut totally on a CNC without a vacuum holddown. I'll be going with vacuum holddown if I get the job.

As for the amount, I talked to the person that gave them my name and knows the company very well, he said that 10,000 is a small order for them.

[ccaracciolo7]

Andy,
I like Jerry Hicks' approach to pricing near the top of this thread. It's logical and similar to the approach we discussed earlier today. I also agree with Paco's suggestion leaning toward the $1.32 per piece scenario, especially knowing the customer's other cost and his selling price. I'm pretty sure we can get a jig design down for 40 pcs/hr or more, but really like Paco's "Pre-cut blanks = vacuum JIG (lets hope the blanks will be flat) = designing time = worth money" comment, but with volumes this high you should consider jig design time and/or cost as "cost of doing business". You know I personally believe your source if he says 10k is a small run for this company. See you in the morning.

[paco]

Consider dual JIG for improved production; while the Bot cut, the operator swap the cut for a new blank. How about having the blanks at some 48" to cut two from a blank on a dual JIG setup?

On a such order, the JIG designing cost will get "distribute" over the amount of part cut. It shouldn't raise the cost too much... just don't forget about it on quote calculation.

To push at max on feed, look for strong and solid vacuum setup (gasket)... go with the 3/8"-1/2" CED short CEL tool bit... since you'll be profiling after, don't bother too much on cut finish quality (just smooth curves).

[jhicks]

I see Paco's note "Profile made on router table while Bot cutout shapes... right?!" but I would think about this design and cut strategy as follows.
Every motion, set up change, handling step is money SO minimize at all costs. Therefore it appears to be 3/4" pine (or mdf/trupan = better)
The cut file for the blanks is fairly straight forward BUT pine WILL have inconsistencies, warp, knots, and stuff you will need to work around. Even poplar exhibits the warping or inconsistent thickness unless perfectly planed to thickness before cutting.
Is his material to be flat, and S4S finish? you'll still get some warped boards to contend with.
This will be an impact on a vacuum jig. With a flat table and custom puck/gasketed in place, warps will leave gaps = no vacuum. ARGH$#@%#%.
How will you seal pine or do you have a great vacuum hold down system?
Ok, so you vacuum or clamp,screw down to a flat spoil board. Screws or simple clamp/turnbuckles are pretty effective.
Why cut on the bot and move to router table? There are custom and standard bits that have an edge profile and decorative ogee or other details available as plunge bits that can do the entire job and never go to the router table.
We would use such a bit with a 1/4" end mill center plunge and an outer decorative profile as the single bit used. Cut 1st pass down perhaps .600" to leave an onion skin, second pass remaining .150" to finish edge detail and cut out. Maybe even design a custom bit so the edge detail is accomplished on the .600" pass and then change to 1/4" end mill to cut out with low torque and mimimal hold down.
I am sure this is faster than pick up, router table, and moving back especially if you set up a table where you can move plank to plank as you load and unload so the bot really never stops cutting.
Finally, The PRICE issue. I find its NEVER as quick as I think at the beginning. Something always comes up. We took a job in baltic birch at .80/ ea for several thousand parts and will NEVER do it again. Just consumes the machine time, and prevents one from running other profitable jobs and wasn't worth it to us.Of course if you have space, people, and can keep the overhead down, theres nothing wrong with running 24/7 if its satisfies your profit plan.
You might want to invest in a pilot run just to witness and consider the total time and mechanics of repetitive volume, finishing, packaging, labeling, shipping, storage, payment terms, supply lines,pallet costs, Boxes,credit terms, rescheduling terms, and those type of details to find the "gremlins" before making any firm commitment. Suggest you make it clear that "custom orders are non cancellable/non returnable, and not reschedulable within a certain number of days" so you don't get stuck holding completed parts or raw material if they redesign/slow down demand, or cancel. When written on the face of a purchase order and signed by an authorized company officer, these terms are enforcable in court. Also might want to take on a 1000 pc run before finalizing anything so both you and the customer know what to expect. Best of luck.

[gerald_d]

For the 10 000 pine planks, 6" wide, 23" long, ends curved, I would really think that an off-site CNC router is the wrong tool for the job. You would be spending more manhours in transport, clamping, un-clamping, cleaning, scrap-dumping (from too wide planks), etc.

Those planks can be sawn to width and length and a simple manual profiler could be used to shape the ends. The profiler can be a pin-router - it is easier to move the small planks and to have the machine static.

[tuck]

I have to agree with Gerald on this. I would pull out my table saw, chop saw and bench-top router table. Set-up time would be much less, me thinks, and if the blanks are not perfectly flat, it's no big deal with the "old fashioned" method.

I may be "cheap", but there's no way I would do them for less than $1.50 ea. myself.

[gerald_d]

Real truth is that I would offer to build the guy a machine he could use in-house for about $2000 ....

[tuck]

$2,000.00?? YOU'RE CHEAP! LOL!

[wcsg]

You thread pirates! :p

[andyb]

Sorry Erik... Rrrrrrrr

[ccaracciolo7]

Andy,
I'm seeing the bidding up to $1.50 each...hmmm

[jhicks]

Interesting ideas as usual. I would love to see what that $2,000.00 single use machine would look like.

[gerald_d]

A bench with a fence at the back. To the right, an adjustable fence/stopper at 90 degrees. The man pushes the plank against the back fence and slides it to the right against the stopper. Router under the bench on a foot operated mechanism. Man pushes foot pedal down, first bit of pedal stroke brings router bit up through table, rest of pedal stroke moves router to back of table against profiled cam to give the shape. No clamping of the workpiece - man keeps his hands on it. Ogee work by second man with conventional router table.

[mikejohn]

This will work if you have accurately cut blanks.
Make a tray the same size as the (brown)blank. On the underside attach a mirror shape of the shape you need,taking into account the offset for the size of the bit.

7946
Have the router mounted under the table, with a pin the same diameter as the bit mounted directly above.
Slide the tray face down, with material in place, up against the pin, route anti-(counter) clockwise.
If your material is too thick for a single pass, have a spacer, twice the dimensions of the tray, on the benchtop. This way, the entire face of the material is in contact with the table.


7947

............Mike

[gerald_d]

Mike, are you trying to do me out of $2000?
That is a good application for vacuum. Suck the green template down onto the (crudely cut) brown blank with a flexible pipe. Use a router bit with a ball bearing on top (don't need the blue arm and pin).

Erik, the corpse of your thread is now being mutilated.

[andyb]

OK, in quoting the job I called the customer to ask him about the profile and asked a few other questions to get a feel of what he was looking for. He wanted me to just quote cutting the boards without the cutter in the price. It’s a custom profile.

Just to be prepared my partner got a quote for a custom cutter for the profile of $350, that price is for the base and one pair of inserts. The replaement inserts are $45 a pair. Plus the base can be used for other profile inserts. The vendor gave him the suggested feed rates for cutting along the grain and to get the best quality cut on the end grain. That is the feed rates I used for my scenarios.

I laid out the boards in Parts Wizard and created several scenarios. Time to cut in two passes, time in one pass, minimum speed, maximum speed, different layout of the boards to get maximum number of cuts per hour with the quality the customer was looking for and came up with what I thought was a good fair price.

Well, I called and gave the customer my quote for $1.20 per board and told him I may be able to drop the price a little after I cut a few to see how everything was running. He told me the price was too steep. I asked what price he was looking for and his reply was 25 cents per board or basically 5 cents per foot. He says that if he can get his machine to run the boards with the quality that he was looking for, that he can put out 1500 boards a day at a cost of 10 cents each. That’s 187.5 boards an hour in an 8 hour shift. The problem is that he is getting a lot of tear out on the ends. His last words were “I have your info. I’ll call you if I need anything.”

So needless to say I won’t be getting that job.

[tuck]

That sucks, Andy!

An old boss use to tell me, tounge-in-cheek, "No profit, but think of the VOLUME!" Some jobs just aren't woth it, and this looks like one of 'em. On the other hand, if YOU can crank out 1500 boards per day @ 25 cents each, that's $375.00 a day, times 5 days per week = $1,875.00 per week, and that ain't exactly chopped liver. But man, that's a lot of cutting. My math may be wrong, but I figure you'd have to average a little better than 3 boards per minute to cut 1,500 in 8 solid hours of cutting. Not possible.

[robtown]

There's a lot of expendables in the proccess of cutting 10,000 pcs as well. How many router bits do you think you would go through? If you are using a PC instead of a spindle, one maybe two sets of brushes, possibly a whole new router, I go through about two a year and I don't think I've cut 10,000 pcs total in the 21/2 years I've had it.

I'm sure there's a couple of you out there who make it work, but my experience with cutting pcs has been pretty much what you just went through. If you'd a figured out how to get the guy his parts for .25 each, he would've come back next time needing them for .22

Chasing pennies while ignoring dollars... cutting parts, and open bidding on commercial/institutional millwork, two things that make you race to the bottom... I'd rather make 1000.00 on one piece than 1.00/ea on a 1000 pieces.

[gus]

The Potato Principal

There where two guys that used to buy potatoes in Fargo North Dakota and hall them to the farmers market in Duluth, Minnesota. They where driving down the road one day and the one says to the other. We buy them spuds for a buck a bushel and we sell them for a buck a bushel. We ain't making any money! His partner replied " Ya I know, we gotta get a bigger truck."

[jhicks]

Guess the lesson might be to "ask for the target price they need to make the project successful" before running up the clock on your time only to learn he had an unattainable target in his mind all along. It's impossible to "meet or beat" an in house cost when those costs only include "time for labor without any overhead transportation or profit".
All he did was rationalize keeping it in house for himself or for his boss to make himself feel better in spite of the likelyhood that his numbers are wrong, and their quality is poor. Probably all that was intended in the 1st place. Many buyers spend a lot of their time and "potential suppliers" time justifying their existance so beware and qualify as well as you can before expending a lot of time for $0.00 return.
Live and Learn

[gene]

If i didnt know better i would say yall are discribing a pin router . my question is why not order a designated router bit that has the profile you need and cuts thru the material in one step.? Reguardless of how you do it if there is no profit there should be no job . I make enough sawdust , i need to make money.
I had the same thing happen to me when a company wanted me to resize 35000 pcs of mdf for some machine they use. all said and done i bid .67 per piece and they thought i was robbing them or something. I didn't get the job but i also think it was given to a friend at what i ( a legiminate outside bid ) was going to charge.

[tuck]

Gene, I talked my neighbor Andy on the phone the other night about the job in discussion and he was going to have a custom profile bit made that would do what you're talking about on his Alpha. Look 7 post above. $350.00 + $45.00 for replacement inserts. Read carefully.

Any way you cut it, 25 cents a pop is a no-win situation for such a job. Andy wasted his time and effort putting together a quote for the customer, but we all do it. We HAVE to do it! It comes with the territory of "doing business". If I got every job I quoted, I wouldn't be posting this. I'd be retired, living in Costa Rica, maybe, and completely unconcerned!

BTW, Ted, I LOVED that "Potato Principal" story! Classic! :-)

[andyb]

I talked to a friend that knows the guy I quoted the job for and has done some work for him. He said the guy is a good guy just hard headed. I think he is using a pin router or had someone cutting them for him that used a pin router. It still baffles me how he is going to cut 1500 in a day and get the quality of cut he wants. Plus he was having to use 3 different bits to get the profile that he needs.

[tuck]

Hard to say how he's gettin' it done, Andy. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. There's bigger fish for you to fry! :-)

[normand]

I am certain he is not using one of them http://www.awed-machine.com/bandsaws.html But just to know they exist