Advice on ShopbotBuddy

[lshuck]

I am considering the ShopBot Buddy over the Rockler Shark Pro as a first venture into CNC capability. Any commnets on how well/not well the Buddy works would be appreciated.

[cabnet636]

it is pretty simple, the shopbot buddy cost three + times more than the shark and is 50+ time the machine, seriously the value of the buddy is far superior and yet the shark has it's place.

jim

[Brady Watson]

Yeah...don't waste your cash on the Shark. Look closely - The frame is made out of plastic...

-B

[lshuck]

jim & B: Thnx for your input. I have gone thru a lot of tools to get the right level thru the years and ini the end it is a challenge to take the first step in the right increment. I favor the Shopbuddy as I want to belive that the low end of an upgradeable pro machine is better the=an a high end amateur machine - Is this as you see it?

[cabnet636]

i started with a carvewright and now own three industrial machines, the buddy will do all you want and more for a long time and hold it's value
the shark will end up in the same place my carvewright is on a shelf in the shop.

simple advice get the larger width if you have space as most material is sized in 4' widths you will not regret this.

the shopbots are all built to the same industrial standard only the sizes and features are different, there will ne a lot more botters here in the am

[lshuck]

James:

Thnx again for your input, I can handle the cost and the space it is only a matter of taking a good first step. What do you think about the Power stick addition? I am considering the 48X24 machine

[dana_swift]

Les- I did the same kind of investigation over two years ago, and bought one of the first Buddies. My BT-32 is a TANK! Solid beyond description. The metal extrusions used to build a large shopbot are the same ones used on the buddy, so they are shorter and therefore even MORE rigid.

I suspect the buddies in the hands of an experienced user can get better accuracy than the gantry systems. Thats just my hunch tho.

Also if you can afford the $$ get the Alpha, its fast and self-correcting during cuts. If I had it all to do over, I would get the BT-48 instead of the BT-32. Handling standard plywood stock widths would be an advantage.

I use a porter-cable router, it works "well enough", a spindle is nice but not necessary.

I cannot comment on the other product as I have no experience with it, but I have never regretted mine for a moment.

Having a shopbot gets you all of us to help out when you get stuck, and you will have questions. The forum is a HUGE fringe benefit of being a botter..

Good luck either way-

D

[hastings]

Les:

I have a fully equipped hobby workshop, but I was anxious to dip my toe in the CNC world. After a pretty thorough search, I could not find a serious machine that compares to a shop bot in terms of price and engineering.

I was able to find a nice s/h Buddy 32 that I am delighted with. Sure it would be nice to have a spindle and an Alpha but the price gets much much higher and well beyond what I could justify for a hobby.

[lshuck]

Dana & Read:

Thnx for the info. I think I can manage the BT48 but anything beyond that is beyond my reach.

You have been helpful to relieve my questions as to whether this is a serious and reliable tool and thus worth the $.

Also, I appreciate the the comment on forum as a good source for help.

[erik_f]

Les,
The BT48 is a better machine in every way...but it is also 2x the price of the Shark...however...down the road I've seen Shopbots sell for around 75-80% of their as new price. You may have a hard time getting your money back out of a Shark. If you are serious about getting into CNC the SB is a great all around value that is hard to beat. But if you want to toy around and get your feet wet...and don't mind spending money you may never see again...don't go with the Shark check out Probotix V90...a full system can be had for around $1000 (http://www.probotix.com/index.php?view=home). If you have fun with a cheaper smaller cnc eventually you will want something better. The learning curve is much easier with the SB then it used to be...the Vectric software that comes with it very intuitive and you could be making parts the first day if you practice a little cad drawing before you get your Buddy. The 48" BT is the only way to go in my mind...not only for ease of use and upgrading down the road with the Powerstick...but resale as well.

[lshuck]

Erik:

Propitious timing - I just completed a call to SB sales. With shipping and CA Tax the 32 is 9,382 and the 48 is 11,156. I have enlarged my max $ from what I was willing to spend 3 mos. ago from 3K, & then 5K and now 7.5K knowing that with tax etc. it would be close to 10K and the 11,156 spooks me a bit at the moment.

On the other hand, I went thru 8 circular saws over the years trying to get the right saw just because I was unable at first and then later on, unwilling to pay the amt. and then when I did get a quality saw I wondered why I had been so unwilling so long.

Your (and some others) comment is helping stretch my mental $ limit.

I will look at the probotox you referenced just to see what it loos like.

Any other comments?

[erik_f]

Les,
You will always be able to sell your SB. I would guess a PRS standard BT 48 with a router only would be able to be sold for around $7500 (I would guess). If you spend 3K on a Shark I would guess you might be able to sell for around $1000...the cost after you sold it would be around the same to you.

[shoeshine]

I bought my BT48 in march, and I couldn't be more pleased.

I did almost a year of casual research and a month of intensive phone calls , finding people to talk to who had real experience with the machines, etc...

The three factors that made me pick shopbot were:

1: quality of construction (ridgid, solid gearing, great controller) I went to rockler and tried the shark on a demo day. Much to the chagrin of the staff I ran it through a grueling set of tests. The kicker was when I put a piece of rock maple on it and watched the whole frame bend as it tried to cut.

2: software (vectric rocks) seriously, the ease of use is incredible, and it meshes well with the other softwares I use (Illustrator, Rhino)

3: and last but certainly not least the support community. I cant tell you how many horror stories I heard regarding the carvewright. Both tech support from shopbot, which is amazing, and the absolutly invaluable resource of this forum. I have already had several issues resolved within a couple of days by the people here.

final note, if you are even considering these other lower end machines, a standard with PC router will blow you away with its capability. I doubt that the alpha/spindle is remotely in your needs at this time. As I understand it from taking to a number of other owners, the alpha/spinde set up really pays off in a production environment where you are running sheet after sheet all day every day, but if this isn't you... and yup I went with the 48 over the 32 purely for the fact that all my material comes in 48" widths. It is also great to have the option of buying that 8' power stick if I need to cut a full 4x8 sheet occasionaly in the future (or make a full size door, or cut that mantle I been planning, or...)

Good luck
Chris

[lshuck]

Erik & Chris:

Thnx for the additional info and encouragement.

I now am certain about the ShopBot Buddy so only decision yet to be made is the 32 or 48, 48 if I can oversome the emotional "burden" of exceeding $10K.

Les

[erik_f]

Les,
I know its a good leap from a 32 to a 48...but trust me...the 48 is a much more useful size now and in the future if you decide to upgrade your powerstick.

[dana_swift]

Les, something I will highly recommend, is call SB sales.. locate a local SB owner. You probably wont have to drive very far to find one. And see if you can arrange a demo.

Shopbot quality is reflected in the number of us who have purchased them. When you have been up-close-and-personal with one you will understand what we are saying about their being SOLID. Not only that, you will have somebody in your area you can talk to. The day your SB shows up is "overload". Lots to do. That will be true for any CNC, so think about that a while when making your choice.

Also, its worth noting I have a "medium" grade table saw between contractor and cabinet types. Since I have bought the SB, I have not used it ONCE! NADA, I dont use my thickness planer either. The SB does those jobs more accurately and safer since I am not holding the work when ths SB does its cuts.

And another note on costs, any CNC will introduce new expenses, bits, spoilboard, etc.

Then a good question is: what is your satisfaction worth? Its interesting to note on this forum there is almost no grumbling. Thats more evidence of a lot of happy owners.

Good luck-

D

[shoeshine]

Hey Les,

I just noticed you are up in Fallbrook. I am in San Diego just N of hillcrest. If you want to take a look at a new PRSstandard BT48, hell even give it a quick test drive ;-) you are more than welcome to come down. less than an hour drive.

I should have time in the studio T-Th next week or W-F the week following. I am however in a residential neighborhood so if you want to see it run, it would have to be during the day.

If you want, give me a buzz 619-534-3512

Chris

[lshuck]

Chris:

Thnx for the offer, I will call and we can chat. It is great to be able to see one in the "live"

Les

[lshuck]

Dana & Erik:

As you have probably seen, I have an invitation to see a live machine next week and, I am almost over sticker shock for the 48.

Thnx for the continued information and the encouragement.

Les

[cabnet636]

les like i told you this morning, "there will be a lot more shopbotters here in the am"

here is looking at 2500.00$ sitting on a shelf, worth maybe 500-700 and then comes the guilt and shame of never being able to look the guy i sold it to in the eye again, so i will not sell it after all something has to sit on that shelf!!


8001

[erik_f]

I think Dana makes a good point...there are going to be other costs involved like some sort of dust collection...bits...an old computer to run the controller off of. When I bought my BT it was my second SB (I had sold the first and wanted to downsize)...so I tend to forget that when I bought my first SB...it felt like I kept spending money for a little while after I got going, getting going. The important thing is getting the right machine the first time since that is very hard to change. I looked at the BT32 because of price, but pushed myself to get the larger machine and I'm glad I did. All the other stuff can come later...but it's impossible to make the machine wider...if I had to skimp on some of the other stuff to get the larger machine...thats what I would do...and actually, what I did

[lshuck]

James, Erik and all other contributors:

Now after a nights sleep and thinking a bit I have overcome the 10K barrier and will be going 48. I really appreciate the points you and others have made as it has not only been useful in piercing the 10K veil but also serves as realistic warnings as to the other "Oh By The Ways" that will come along.

The picture of the machine sitting on the shelf is a good reminder that by not going the Carve... or the Shark route will "pay" for the shipping and CA tax.

Rationalization is a wonderful process.

Thnx again for you time and effort on my behalf.

Les

[erik_f]

Why are you paying California tax on this machine? It would seem if anything you would be able to write off the cost of the SB against your income taxes if you had a DBA. Not sure what laws are in place in the broke state of Cali...but in the broke state of NY I didn't have to pay any taxes on my machine and was considered a business expense.

[cabnet636]

les, when i came to cnc even as a cabinetmaker it was not to produce cabinetry, (the guys in the shop got that pretty down pat) what i wanted was to enhance the work (carvings and custom detail's) within weeks i was pocketing and profiling apartment signs for a sign company, that money paid for my second machine. there will be lots of suggestions but some i took to was to pick a project i wanted to do and work to learn it first instead of taking it all in at once. also do not buy a cnc with the job waiting on the machine as there is learning curves in front first after 26 years of cabinetmaking i took that one seriously! i picked a column i saw in shopbots virtual gallery http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/17997/25555.html?1194929485 by robert cheal called fretwork. it became my goal. i also started here
http://www.vectric.com/ when i sell a kitchen i tell the lady to pick 3-5 photos of what she wants and a couple of features from each we then work to build her the kitchen she wants cause if she shows up wit 10 magazines i show here the door!! i feel the same about cnc it ain't always easy but it sure is not impossible and company's like shopbot and vectric as well as cabinetparts pro have brought that capability to affordability to any one with the acumen to suceed. i have far exceeded my goals at this point and am moving on to more machines, training and file/part production.. just goes to show my pop was right "you will learn more from the student, than the salesman"

jim



8002

[lshuck]

Erik:

EDITORIAL: In my opinion CA is broke due to bad leadership of the Gov and the legistaure as they did not do what needed to be done when it needed to be done. Seems a classic case of people more interested in getting elected than doing what should be done.

Thus CA is getting very aggressive on collecting sales tax no matter where you purchase an item as one source of revenue. Internet sales are an exception in many cases but, the Robo people are complying with CA tax collection initiatives.

I have shied away from trying to make my shop a "business" as I will not be actively seeking work, just using this tool for my own pleasure. Also, this avoids potential IRS issues that comes along with a business component that does not show sufficient income to offset the expenses on an ongoing basis. However, due to the cost of this tool I may see things differently. In the end I would need to show some income related to this effort and as alluded to previously, I like doing things for myself but no longer get pleasure from doing work for clients. But...

Thnx for your interest and comment.

Les

[cabnet636]

no worry's you will never have to buy christmas presents again either!!!

lol

jim

[lshuck]

James:

I appreciate your picts, refs and what you have accomplished and I like your approach to the CNC effort - who knows I may change my thoughts on doing work for others. Athough I do not feel it, I am in my late 70's and finally have had a year without client income (mngt consulting with people with a small business - not wood working) and I find I really like the freedom to do things without client interface.

But, I have lived with myself for a long time and have found out that a hard core position I take at one point often gets modidied based on changing conditions and having clients is a good way to learn new things - Even if not profitable in one sense, it is a way to get materials paid for while getting pleasure of doing an original creation.

I am coming to believe, based on some comments provided by you and others, that this tool has a lot more flexibility and applications than I can conceive and, I do like flexibility and making only one of something.

Les

[dubliner]

Les, I'd like to point out something. We Shopbot owners are proud of our machines, yet we will point out its flaws, get them worked out & the machine becomes better, as do we. Forum Admin never seem to interfere in our discussions as ultimately we all benefit, but secondly James McGrew does not have a Shopbot, yet he observes they are a very capable machine. so I would listen to James ( it also shows he has some class, as he owns another brand ). I too had a CW at first but now have a BT32. The price will not be as worrysome when you see what you get and also realize the resale value. There is little risk involved.

[lshuck]

Nevelle:

I did notice that James machine shown in his picts was not an SB but another link did illustrate some things he had done so I took it as illustative of the possibilities.

When I by a tool I never think about resale value but, in this case I am thinking about it and that eases my $veil. Also it seems used machines sell easily (at least when I look for ads, I do not find many and then many are gone in just a little time)

Although I am a newby in this area, I have been surprised anmd pleased with the # of people who have made comments to help me thru my decision process and I welcome yours about the forum and what I can expect in cooperation in the future.

Les

[cabnet636]

truth is i went to shopbot in 07 and at that time they were not ready for the tool changer, the fellow i am in colusion with has and is a long term botter, about ten years ago my dad needed a gear made for an antique projector, the fellow we found to make it has several bots in his shop here in columbia and it was my first exposure to cnc under 250.000$ and with out a marriage contract to a big iron company. the local botter friend made topographical maps for the state park system that are on display at the welcome centers and a true replica of the harley fat boy that was given to the governor of our state at that time (the one with out the mistress in argentina). there were several machines i could have owned and i may still buy the smaller bot as the third machine (4x4 with lathe)i thought would go to the barn has now been relegated to another purpose. and the buddy's unique power stick idea is truly ingenious!.

[henrik_o]

Let's put it this way Les, I'd normally greet you this way: Hejsan Les, trevligt att råkas, ta en öl och mingla runt eller chilla, om det kommer en älg så ropa.

Yeah, I'm a Swede, and I own the only shopbot in this northern European country. The US of A is quite a long way from our shores. Taking the plunge and ordering a machine from the USA, knowing full well that I've never seen it, tech support is far away and only offered in my third language, well, it took a bit of nerve.

The support, both from Shopbot Tools Inc and this forum, has been outstanding. There's nothing like it in the cnc world, I know that because I wavered for two good years, weighing my options, wondering, studying. The learning curve is always steep, but through all the good and decent folks dedicated to this platform it was significantly smoothed out.

You should always consider all options. The shopbot might not be right for you. But one thing is certain: the community is. We few, we happy few, we band of botters. ;)

[dubliner]

FYI - Tech Support is offerd in English as well as American :-), Hej Henrik

[henrik_o]

Hallå Neville, you don't say? Jävlar anamma ;)

Btw, the old SAAB is gone -- and a new one sits in the driveway :D

[lshuck]

James, Neville & Henrick:

Good info and good sports/sense of humor all of you.

Les