I've Cut Air And I've Cut Foam

[courtney2018]

Kinda sounds like the beginnings of an old James Taylor song.

So, thanks to some help from Dana Swift I did some basic operations, cut a file in air and then did the same file but with foam the next go around.

I know alot of you on here have seen similar newbies post up their first success. Still, it's a milestone for me. I'm starting to relate the Shopbot's particulars to what I'm used to with the bigger CNC machines.

Right now I'm trying to figure out the best way to hold down my work and indicate it in accurately each time. It's stressing my brain, but it's also 1am in the morning. Perhaps tomorrow a good idea will pop up alittle quicker.

So looks like my next step is wood. Probably some cheap plywood. That foams goes ALL over the place. :o)

[nomi]

Cheap plywood is a good next step.

And you're right, the foam gets ALL over the place
But it is a great way to start.

- Noel

[dana_swift]

I have found it's easy to get pallets and disassemble them. The wood can be squared up on the bot and laminated into bigger pieces if needed.

Usually the wood is free. Some disassembly required! Easy to do tho.. and really nice figure in some of the wood.

Glad to have been of assistance-

D

[ironsides]

Using old pallets is a geat idea, but watchout for hidden nails in those pallets!!

George

[cabnet636]

if you can find the importer or local distributor of copper and metals in sheet goods then ask them for pallets, most of the time these pallet's are from souteast asia and are made of mohogany and some other interesting woods

jim

[ron brown]

"if you can find the importer or local distributor of copper and metals in sheet goods then ask them for pallets, most of the time these pallet's are from souteast asia and are made of mohogany and some other interesting woods "

Mahogany is an American wood. I know of no true mahoganies growing outside of the North/South American region. There are woods called "mahogany" .... but they aren't.

Ron

[myxpykalix]

I have heard of something called "african mahogany" is that not from africa? Is that not mahogany?
(inquiring minds want to know)lol

[cabnet636]

ever been to honduras? phillipines, i have seen pallet wood that was not much more than a banak, i have also seen some pretty exotic woods as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahogany

[ron brown]

Mahogany is an American wood. I know of no true mahoganies growing outside of the North/South American region. There are woods called "mahogany" .... but they aren't.

James,

No matter what you call a particular wood, if it is not that species, it is a lie. I have used Occume, Sapele, Regina, Meranti, Luan and Santa Maria in boat and furniture construction. I have heard them all called 'Mahogany'.

I have no idea of the current cost of true Mahogany today. I suspect it is over $10 a board foot. My meager supplies of veneers and solid material is low but I do keep some 'real mahogany' on hand for repairs of 'real stuff'.

I don't even think of looking at pallets for 'mahogany'. I've seen Apitong, Luan, Zipote and many other 'interesting' woods used in pallets. Even at the mills that produced mahogany, I never saw it used as pallet material. BUT, that was 20 years ago .... things might have changed.

Jack,

There are no mahogany producers I know of in Africa. Sapele and Regina are both called 'mahogany'.
-----------
At one time (in my youth or a fantasy world) words had meaning and 'craftsmen' knew what those words meant. I guess that is part of what was called 'education'.

Ron

[gene]

I got a pine tree in my yard and i think i'll call it a mahogany tree just cause i want to. And i dont care want you say or think......HA

[shoeshine]

the lowdown... just cause I was curious

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahogany

[carlosgmarroquin]

The irony:

Here in Guatemala I can get real mahogany at $2.5 the board feet, kiln dried and surfaced.

But yesterday my MDF dealer didn't have any 1/4" sheet because it's imported.

[cabnet636]

ron, i am not sure if you are having a bad day or not but to use the word lie is surely a stretch. i make no claim to any expertise but it seems i have been mislead for some 26 years as to the origins of mohogany or mahogany, personally i just sell it to people who want it. we used it in italy to build boats and in st. thomas as well, here in SC it comes from somewhere and always has stamps on it from africa or honduras, forgive me but i have yet to recieve a unit from illinois or texas for that mater. i was able to find this when entering "american mohogany" in google and found this on sapele
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapele


8179

[tmerrill]

From Chapter 1 of the USDA Wood Handbook:

Mahogany
The name mahogany is presently applied to several distinct
kinds of commercial wood. The original mahogany wood,
produced by Swietenia mahagoni, came from the American
West Indies. This was the premier wood for fine furniture
cabinet work and shipbuilding in Europe as early as the
1600s. Because the good reputation associated with the name
mahogany is based on this wood, American mahogany is
sometimes referred to as true mahogany. A related African
wood, of the genus Khaya, has long been marketed as
“African mahogany” and is used for much the same purposes
as American mahogany because of its similar properties and
overall appearance. A third kind of wood called mahogany,
and the one most commonly encountered in the market, is
“Philippine mahogany.” This name is applied to a group of
Asian woods belonging to the genus Shorea. In this chapter,
information on the “Philippine mahoganies” is given under
lauan and meranti groups.

For those interested, this handbook is 19 chapters of excellent information and it can be downloaded free:

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/products/publications/several_pubs.php?grouping_id=100&header_id=p

It has much more detail on mahogany and its family.

Tim

[Gary Campbell]

We see many of these species in our work. Once it has value, a wood "name" will be applied to any similar wood for marketing purposes. Here is a brief on how the 4 most common mahogany varieties affect cabinetmakers:

Honduras, aka Genuine: Fairly rare and mostly expensive, but available.

African, aka Sapele: Most widely avalable and priced similar to many of better US hardwoods.

Phillipine, aka Luan: had to be a color tie in, wood is less dense, open grain and bordering on soft. As in Luan doors. Cheap

American, aka the Queens Mahogany: The darkest, hardest and straighest grained of all. Was cut from FLorida Keys, Cuba and other islands around the eastern end of the Carribean by the English a couple centries back. It was called "the Queens" as it had to be returned to England to be made into furniture for the Royals. There is a good number of single "yard trees" left here in the Keys, we get them after a hurrincane as blow down, other than that, they are protected.

Most things made from "mahogany" today use Sapele with just enough color to mimic the real stuff of old.

Our primary wood supplier has 2 sister slabs 4" by 40" by 100"+ of genuine Honduras that are 30 yrs cut. At $10K each with no separate sales, I think they are in the vault. They wouldnt even let me touch the edges.
Gary

[courtney2018]

The place that I buy my wood from has several different mahoganys. Genuine Mahogany in 4/4 is $15/bf and 8/4 is $16/bf. Then there's Mahogany Santos in 4/4 for $11/bf. Both are from the Central America region.

Then there's my favorite, Afican Mahogany in 4/4 at $8/bf and 8/4 at $9/bf.

$16/bf is getting up there in price, but I consider it to be a middle of the road price for wood. I've used more pricier woods like Cocobolo from Central America that is $25/bf for 4/4.

Another that I plan to use as fretboard material on a project is Kingwood that is $50/bf for 4/4.

The real mahogany may be from the Central America region, but it's become an acceptable name for various other woods. As long as the one from Central America is the only one to bare the name "Genuine" and the others do not, I don't have a problem adding "mahogany" to the name of other woods. Example: N.C. Mahogany (a.k.a. Pine). It's almost a jab in the ribs. :o)

[ron brown]

My copy of the "Handbook" is red and cost over $80 from the Government printing office about 25 years ago.

I guess one of the reasons I am so 'picky' about the names is partly legal. I have done a lot of work of certified aircraft 'under a mechanic' who I doubt could tell yellow pine from white pine if rolled with the stamp. When someone decides to re-kit an antique airplane, feral... I mean federal inspectors pay particular attention to 'repairs' and if they could have been related to the problem. Most of the old spar material is very interesting and all but impossible to replace with 'like' wood. This is mainly due to ring spacing than species. But species, length and grain orientation add to the high cost of very good spruce. If you want a goobernment stamp on it .... apply for the loan before you go to the shop.

In the past, I have cut up 32-36" wide 20' mahogany (Swietenia) in 8/4 and 10/4 thicknesses making boats and furniture. Cost was less than $2.50 a foot in the late 1980's.

I'm not much of a salesman and if someone asked if I can quote a "Mahogany X" I assume they mean genuine/American/Swetina and quote from there. If they go down the street, they will probably get a better price ... Birch stained red, and not realize the difference.

As far as someone being mislead, it happens all the time. Perhaps I go a bit overboard in saying "The truth is the truth and its' own defense." But, I research things and try to ascertain the facts before building rather than ask to be forgiven for being ignorant/stupid afterwards (and possibly 'eat' the project). And a 'lie' is overlooked if 'the facts at the time' indicate a different story.

Ron

[gene]

YEA James,
What about that!!!!! If you use stained birch in an old plane it will CRASH !!!!!!!I wonder who woke up on the wrong side of the bed! I think i an going to open up a wood store,,,,,,

[bleeth]

Hey guys: If the thread is going to get highjacked into a discussion of Mahogany so be it, but it's a no brainer for those that know anything about the stuff to agree with Ron and Gary that true Mahogany is an American species. Some of the finest ever actually grew in Cuba but was stripped out over a century ago. There are sinkers in the ocean though and you don't want to know what planks from that cost when they are found and brought up. Most of the South American Mahogany you get North of the border now is Brazilian and has been taken illegally. The plantation grown, which is the only legal stuff now from SA that actually is Mahogany, is nowhere near the quality of Honduran Mahogany (Swietana) from a diverse forest, but this applies to so many hardwoods today, what can you say.
The African Khaya, or Sapele, is a true cousin and was used by Riva, Century, and many other fine boat companies of olden years.
Phillipine is complete garbage and doesn't even belong in the same mill.
On a personal note, as late as 7 years ago McEwen had huge units of the real thing in their yards, 4 and 8/4 and 30" wide planks were mixed in with the usual 8-16's. Price:$4.50BF. I kick myself in the butt for not grabbing some and laying it aside.
Unfortunately, many people will refer to damned near anything as Mahogany. This would be the same people who don't recognize American Cherry because its not Red. You can cure ignorance, but nobody can fix stupid.

(Sorry about the rant)

[courtney2018]

I had no idea that me posting about cutting air and foam would lead to such controversy.

[cabnet636]

courtney, the original goal was and for most still is for you to have a blast with your shopbot!!!

jim

[dana_swift]

Courtney.. have you made sawdust yet?

The controversy seems to have gotten started when I suggested one supply of free wood. Sorry about that.. in the future I will only post where to buy things. For information about free stuff I will use email. Sheeh..

Since I have not heard from you.. I presume you are busy enjoying the new machine!

By now you will have noticed the dust-foot is a great device for keeping your garage a lot cleaner.

Hope you are having a great time!

D

[courtney2018]

Dana, no sawdust yet. I've been busy, but not with the machine.

Instead of wood I'm going to practice on 2" styrofoam. Going to cut a 3D model of a yacht for a friend of mine that has his logo on it. He does yacht detailing. Going to do that today and post up my result. :o)

About the dust boot, I need to install that. Holding the vacuum hose by hand gets old real quick.

[kenakabrowncom]

Courtney... welcome to the community!

I was in your situation exactly a year ago... Air graduating to foam and then (yikes) wood!

Suggestions on free wood... cabinet shops and lumber wholesalers. I build cutting boards and had two locations I got everthing from. In fact for two years I used all totally free wood to make my products.

Eventually it became too time consuming to dumpster dive and we now buy wood...

Regarding hold down. I went the full circle on hold down on my BT48 Buddy. I now use a vacuum system (AKA Brady Vac) driven by a Fein vacuum. The final solution in the puzzle was getting hooked up with Allstar Adhesives .. they sell foam tape that can be used as a gasket. They even sell a "ShopBot" kit that is $35 for a complete sample line of their products.

If your intrested let me know and I can take photos of the entire setup.

Good luck to you!

[tparr]

Ken: Sorry to jump in here, but I would be very interested in the photos that you are offering as well as any examples of the way you use the Allstar adhesive components. Do have any comments on the use of the Fein Vac? Do you fill the complete table with product to be worked on or just one or two items? Regatds- Tom

[courtney2018]

I don't have the money for a vacuum hold down at the moment. Before I spent money on that I would upgrade to a spindle and alpha motors.

What I'm going to do is build a couple of hold down jigs. One for making guitar bodies and one for making necks. Guitars are my main work. I'm going to put aluminum T-track in a piece of plywood and mount that to the spoil board. That's easy and it'll work.

Until the track comes in next week I'll be practicing on foam. Double sided carpet tape works like a charm.

[curtiss]

I found a used 3 stage 110 vacuum motor at vacuum repair shop that came out of a heavy duty car wash vacuum. He put in new brushes and bearings, cost $90 and works like a charm. Draws about 7 amps.

Would have been $50 as is...

[kenakabrowncom]

Give me a couple of days to get pictures posted... sorry... really busy here!

I have the buddy with the aluminum table. I cut multipule items at a time and never do anything larger than 18 x 33.

Ken

[Mayo]

A great hold down method for styrofoam is 3M Super 77 spray glue. If you spray the right amount - not too much and not too little - you'll get it after a couple tries... it releases easier than the two sided carpet tape.

Depending on the size of the pieces you cut, you can be surprised how little spray you actually need. Most of the time for the things I cut a light misting is all I need to hold styrofoam in place.

Keep an eye on your bits to make sure you don't get a build up of excess adhesive over time. I have to clean mine about every week or so but I cut a lot of foam.

[dana_swift]

Mayo- I also agree with the super-77 method. My improvement on that method is to use HDPE as my base, then stick foam or small parts to the HDPE with Super-77. When you are done you can clean the HDPE with any light solvent. DO NOT CLEAN THE FOAM WITH SOLVENT! Most foams will dissolve! (Experiment)

D

[Mayo]

For my spoilboard, I just use another sheet of foam - usually the pink kind because it's more dense than the light blue or white. After I have tons of cut lines in it, I resurface it. I can usually resurface about 3 times before I have to replace it.