Starting over, one way or another

[woodturner]

As is always stated, this forum is incredible and I need to ask for some input. Our machine is like the “little engine that could.” We just never got out of the blocks with it. And, I am trying to make the decision to start over with it or sell it to a deserving home.

Basically, we have a 3 or 4 year old well outfitted 5x10 Alpha PRT(?) with dual “Z’s”, two VFD spindles (one Colombo, one HSD), an air drill, 15hp vac pump. We have Kcdw and Artcam Insignia. The spindles have NEVER been used with out warm up and cool down cycles. Generally, this takes longer than running the file we are going to cut. If this machine has run 80 hours since new, I’d be surprised. We are on our second spoil board if that is any indication. We only use it for the occasional curved piece of counter top or whatever. I should mention, we build commercial cabinets almost exclusively.

The plan was to have a semi-retired machinist/CNC teacher friend build and run it to make cabinet parts. He built it (to very tight tolerances I might add), and then moved away when his daughter gave him a grandchild. I understand. Since then, I have been trying to learn how to make this machine “sing.” But as someone said in a previous post, it’s like a shuttle launch to cut a part compared to other machines in our shop (blessing and a curse). The way it was assembled with 5 zone valves on one end, the computer on the other side, the control for the vacuum panel lift (Oh yeah, I forgot, we have one of those too) on the opposite end, the dust collector behind the machine, material loading on one end and off loading the other, controls for the vac pump on the wall, the VFD’s under the machine, it’s a pain to make anything efficiently. Plus I am stuck spending too much time cleaning the table. When he built the machine, my friend was used to thinking in metal working terms. Slow but very accurate. He just wasn’t thinking like a woodworker.

My employees do not want to learn this machine. I am busy trying to run the business. I feel overwhelmed at the prospect of stripping it down, re-plumbing the vac system, new plenum with more effective zones (for our sheet good sizes), implementing electro/pneumatic valves, inventing a pop-up pin locating system, etc. Also dumping the Insignia/Cabinetmaker software, which is horrible for my business, and starting over. If I can’t force fit it to become as user friendly as our old point to point they’ll never use it. Right now it’s SO MUCH MORE efficient to cut on one of the panel saws and go down the line.

So what it comes down to is if it’s worth spending all that additional money and time to get it to where someone besides me could run it (efficiently) or what this machine might be worth in the right hands (considering the money spent on it). Then maybe someday buy a machine that has all the convenience features built-in from the manufacturer. “Arguments” on both sides of the aisle are appreciated.

[bcondon]

Ed,

What does your business do? Does your need a machine like this -or is the machine a hinderance?

Are you satisfied with your business?
ARe you satisfied with your employees?

What can't you do today that this machine will help you with?

Can you tell me THREE things you want to improve with this machine. If it is just a nice to have, then it is probably taking up space that you wished you had.

Do you have the skills to really used this machine?

There are times that it best to do things the old fashion way ESPECIALLY if that is what satisfies YOU...

Good luck!

[carlcnc]

Ed
where are you located?
be patient , I will bet there is someone on this forum close enough to help you out,if not
I am in the NW, feel free to email me ,I will help all I can
sounds to me you have all the right stuff for this machine to be a major asset in panel processing.
Carl

[Gary Campbell]

Ed..
It sounds like you have a good machine that could be an invaluable asset to your cabinet business. I know that our PRS is a great asset to ours. After using it for a year and a half we would be lost without it.

Learning the software for both design and operation can sometimes be overwhelming, especially if the person is not motivated by ownership.

You may want to inform your employees that you ARE going to implement the ShopBot into your manufacturing process. In fact it will replace 2 of them. It will not, however, replace any person that knows how to operate it. That should motivate the crew.

You will be amazed at what you can do with one of these machines, especially in the cabinetry field. Do not compare a CNC router, especially one equiped as yours is, to a single purpose, easy to learn machine. If needed, this machine can replace any or all of the others. It will not do any operation better or faster than a single purpose machine, but it can be worked to do them all.

Email me at islaww@comcast.net (mailto:islaww@comcast.net) and I can give you more information.
Gary

[chodges]

I guess I am very biased - I own a sign company, and we use our ShopBot A LOT.

Before buying, I asked myself how the ROI for this machine compared to other alternatives at the same cost. You have a VERY well outfitted ShopBot, and I'm sure this has been a major investment.

In my opinion, a ShopBot is really good to have when you need one-of-a-kind precise curved shapes, but it is GREAT to have if you can use it for repetitively cutting many identical parts. This is where you get to put a lower-salaried worker on a machine that will take work off of your higher-salaried workers, and your ShopBot will be more than paying for itself.

Your higher-salaried workers can use the "extra" time you created for them by doing something else that will make more money for your company.

Basically, your options are (1) to spend the time & money to get your ShopBot configured like you want and someone on your staff trained to use it, or (2) sell your ShopBot and use the proceeds to buy other machinery that will produce a better ROI.

It's hard for someone not familiar with your other machinery to advise you on which way to go, but I would treat this like any other capital equipment decision and go in the direction that will provide the biggest bang for my buck.

[landdesign]

Ed...
I second gary's insight..

employees often look at a new cnc as an effort too cut their jobs, when in face it can make their jobs easier.

you have a sweet machine, so its just a matter of motivating the guys to get on board.

I use my machine for far more than cabinets and in this economic downturn I'm glade I have more than a table saw to use in the shop to keep this turning out the $$.

pick a guy and tell him Monday morning he's running the machine... because that's what Bosses/owners have to do.

Erik

[myxpykalix]

Ed,
From my point of view based on your experience with the friend who moved away, you are going to be the one who learns how to use this and run it.
In turn, you can teach other employees to run and use it, but it would be a wrong decision to send an employee to any type of training. If they leave there goes your money. If you learn it and then train an employee and they leave, you train another, and so on..

You already have a woodworking background which necessitates some reasonable common sense and if you have that, you should have not have a problem learning what you need to know.
You might want to find a shopbotter local to you and hire him for a week or two to train you.

[woodturner]

Hey you guys are great! Thanks for all the responses so far. I want to especially thank you for really reading my long winded post. It’s the only way to get the picture.

To answer the first response (Bob), we primarily make commercial cabinets. I would like to automate the vacuum zones (on and off), have pop-up pins to precisely locate parts when necessary, vary spindle speeds for drilling versus routing operations, reduce cleaning times between cycles, and mainly SIMPIFY the steps so a non computer person can run it. Please keep in mind that our European machines have much more effective dust collection, or bore from underneath thereby eliminating the need. And, as far as me having the skills, “definitely maybe!” I admit that I am extremely covered up trying to keep the biz going (marketing, sales, estimating, design, cut lists, purchasing, scheduling, project management, etc.) which leaves little time to embrace this “love/hate” relationship.

To Charlie’s point, we are blessed with other equipment to cut and bore pretty quickly. Our vertical saw (with scoring) or slider, and our “point to point,” are so simple and quick to run, that they’re a spoiler to the long drawn out process to cut and bore on the router. As is our 50 spindle (dbl row) line bore when needed. Basically, unless it’s curved, they are hard to beat.

Lastly, our software combo was supposed to be seamless and smooth, but it has never (not once) functioned the way it was sold.

All that said, it seems the consensus is to stick with it if I can. But, I’ll ask again, if I can not dedicate the time to re-set everything up, can anyone give an idea of the resale value of what I have. It won’t do anybody any good if I go out of business while spending all my time and capital tweaking this machine to be a more effective panel processing tool.

Much thanks in advance!

[myxpykalix]

Here is another point to think about. Of all those other duties you mention you perform (marketing, sales, estimating, design, cut lists, purchasing, scheduling, project management, etc.) is any of that, that you can put on someone else to do to allow you to do this? Prioritize (or clone) yourself.
Did you say where you were located??

[bleeth]

ED: I too own and run a commercial casework business but do not have a point to point, therefore the bot is doing casework parts. If we did have a point to point then the bot would be doing only the custom parts for chasewalls, curved walls and tops, bending jigs, and countertop supports. For these things alone, the bot is an invaluable tool.
You need to shove it down your employees throat to operate it. Odd's are there is one guy out there who you can teach to operate it and will respond. He may not be qualified to pick up the cad/cam part, but operation is another story. You're Insignia software is sufficient for all the parts I listed above, once you learn how to effectively use it. My clients have gotten used to me driving the framing on their site when there is affected curved millwork and since I am supplying them with templates to "hold to" rather than the other way around, we have desks that match soffets and bars that match walls much simplified. This helps competitiveness. If you still have anyone in your shop swinging a handheld router on the end of a stick to make curves or cutting a stack of wall frames by hand with chase slots then the fault for underutilization of your tool is not theirs.

IMHO your machine is probably worth 15K on the open market plus or minus a couple thousand.

[robtown]

Ed,
It sounds like in your production environment you don't need the machine for what you do. Panel processing can be done more quickly and more effciently with your current setup. In small shops with fewer employees it makes sense to consider the Bot as a main means of panel processing, but as you scale the equation up you reach a tipping point where you can do more in less time with a few dedicated machines and lower skilled people.

The things you say you'd like to add/do to your machine are all features found on big Iron machines for LOTS more $$$. What you will find after making your additions/alterations is that it didn't really make things go any faster or help your current work processes. Basically you're quibbling for seconds and toiling for pennies there. A bigger badder machine won't help there either.

That being said, having a machine like yours around becomes an asset when your aspirations are to enter different areas of the market or new markets.

If you do boxes, are happy with point to point and endbores, and don't want to do anything else then you need to consider getting rid of it to make space.

I'd suggest, IMHO, keep it and find a way to make it work for you, it's an asset that can really do big things for you if you can figure it out.

Also, if you do decide to keep it, I'm with Erik and Dave, employees shouldn't dictate to you what thier job responsibilities are. Maybe you can't force your employees to learn new things, but you can replace them with people who will. There's a lot of skilled people out there right now, some of them are ambitious enough to want to experience "the new"...

[woodturner]

Thanks again folks! Dave, you’ve hit upon the one area we do indeed use the “bot.” Occasional counter top supports (I think it less costly to buy the steel ones), curved tops, etc. are pretty much all that comes off the table. We don’t ever “swing a router off a stick.”


Jack I have been “putting out feeler’s” for a sales/estimating person, but timing isn’t the best to guarantee a salary. And, trying to find someone who will (actually) work on commission is questionable. And Rob, you may be right, I just keep hoping we can put it to some use that is profitable, and signs are not my strong suit.

Ok, I’ve had 24 hours to think about this since my original post and another “look see” at my machine today. Are there any suggestions as to where to start a re-model? Does anybody know of a reasonable source for a better plenum material (5x10) than MDF with 3 coats of poly? I have to change the zone configuration.

Also, has anybody been able to use a single “dump valve” (electro/pneumatic or manual) ahead of individual zone valves. Now, I have to close or open each one to remove cut parts or put down a new board, plus open a diverter valve to the vacuum lift.

Perhaps the biggest unknown is controlling spindle speed without standing there and holding down that little button as it scrolls. I have to slow down for drilling and speed up for routing. How hard is this to accomplish?

[Gary Campbell]

Ed..
I have a lot of info that you could use, but didnt receive an email, but here are the short answers:

1)I used PVC solid for my table, It is strong, dense, machines fairly easily, comes in 5 by 10' sheets. Comes in a few different thicknesses. Here is a link to my column where I show and explain some of the things I did with it: http://www.shopbottools.com/garysmusings.htm#Table

2) Zone valve, I developed an air operated valve for vacuum use. See video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXJhTz-Jc7c&feature=channel_page Control can be simple toggle valve as shown or electro-pneumatic by means of solenoid valve. The solenoid valves can be controlled by the ShopBot software or commands inserted in partsfiles. You can use as many of these on a table as you wish. About $50 each if you cut your own mounting board.

3)ShopBot sells a spindle control board for Delta and Yaskawa VFD's they are not that hard to install, but I do not know if 1 board will control 2 different brands simultaneously. Here is the link for info and pricing: http://www.shopbottools.com/accessories.htm#RPMBoard
Gary

[erik_f]

I hope you don't take this the wrong way Ed, but to me it seems like you are way over thinking this thing. Really you need to get someone or yourself good at a drawing program. I know Rhino is a 3d program, but I have had good luck learning how to draw pretty fast 2d part with it, without a lot of trouble. The the new Partworks software isn't as easy to draw in, but is great for CAM on 2d...at least for me so far. I have been able to draw and cut a prototype in less than an hour.

[woodworx]

get in there and get your hands dirty. Don't be afraid to screw up a few things. That is how you learn. If you really think a human can cut as fast as this machine, you haven't even scratched the surface. I have 2 feins without zones, and have never had a problem with hold down....ever. The type of panel processing you are used to leaves error in the hands of ever person who touches each piece. You must minimize the amount of time each piece is handled, and THEN you will ultimately see an improvement. You have a sweet machine, sounds like you bought it just to show it off. Now look at it, might as well be a drying rack for sweaters that just came out of the wash. Insignia is very easy to use. Takes a few months to begin to be proficient, but you will get it. Plus the nesting feature will really help you out. Learn to draw, ask questions, use your scrap for test pieces. This is how you survive in rough times. If not, pack that thing up and ship it out to me. I'll use it.

[rcnewcomb]

I know of another commecial shop that was able to get extra business because they could carve a corporate logo into cabinetry. This could be another feature that distinguishes you from the competition. The 'bot could handle this well.

[dray]

Heya Ed, if you do not run your cabinetry business "completely" around the cnc then it is just another piece of machinery that is in the way.

The cnc is something that you need to use daily and build your cabinetry business around.

For it to be effective you need to stop and change the way you do things at the shop.

It is a hard transition and takes a lot of time on the machine to learn it. But in the long run it will cut your production time by 30% or more.

By learning it and using it daily its a snap to make cabinetry and will set you a head above the rest with your new found accuracy and incredible versatility to design and manufacture almost anything.

But if you are not using it and learning it it is simply a hindrance in your shop.

And no, employees have no interest in learning anything new.

[myxpykalix]

It tends to be a very expensive workbench and storage table unless used.

[jhicks]

Ed, I read your story and cringe but still am trying to understand your perspective. Regardless here is a short story that may help.
I have aPRT not an alpha so I automatically go slower than your machine. I moved my machine into a freinds high end cabinet shop over 2 years ago. He vascillated, hemmed and hawed about how it was too difficult to design everything on cad when his guys should know enought to interpret his drawings and make it right. "They are Cabinet makers"! NOT!!!
Ok a year went by and there he was on panel saws, table saws, line borers, hand drills, and yet the cabinets his "cabinet makers" made from his drawings still had some very poor material yields, often cut or drilled incorrectly, and often in final assembly parts had to be tweaked to fit in one way or another.
We went to a wood show in October of 2006 and watched a few larger machine cut demos. Now keep in mind I had cut arches, dimensional, and fluted columns for him but not sheet goods.
Finally the light goes on and he decides he is going to get his but in gear, start to thoroughly design all cabinet parts, drilled shelf holes, dadoes, construction holes, etc.
So in November he says, "nothing will be put thru the table saws, PERIOD". All sheet goods will be run on the shop bot until we figure this out!
Ok, so within 30 days, designs were modified to use new joinery, all 5mm shelf, slide, and boring were defined and templated for repeatability.
So since then, those two brand new saw stop table saws have not run any sheet goods. Just hardwood ripping and occasional fill in pieces, or door trimming. Line bore sits collecting dust.
The Cabinet makers (read higher paid guys) who used to complain about drawings, stop at every turn, calculate cut lists, pull stock, cut, measure, stack were now only to fit face frames, doors, trim, hardware, slides, drawer boxes,and prep for finishing.
They now could do what they were really capable of. ASSEMBLY.
In the end he decided to buy a larger machine, sold his company October 08, and now I'm back in my old shop.
Moral of the story is, there is no way you can compete with the efficiency of cnc automation once you define and template your design particulars, and get close to your machine and software!
One can say its quicker to cut on a saw, line bore etc but I assure you, when you have 5 to 35 sheets all designed, nested, and ready to go, drill, dado, notch,cut sides, bottoms, strechers, shelves etc. The machine will win HANDS DOWN!!!
We did compare old vs new and the guys just shook their heads after they saw a real process in action with 2 trainees who outperformed them.
Then they started to ask what they would be doing?
Guess that got them interested in working again.

As far as your guys are concerned, staff was reduced by 50%, whiners were relieved, talent rose to the top to keep their jobs, and I trained 2 young fellows how to set up files,generate tool paths, and run my machine in 2 days.
They took it from there and he never looked back.
His current machine runs 500++ IPM compared to mine at 160IPM and while the machine operator is waiting for the next panel, he is cleaning scrap, and assembling cabinet boxes. In effect it became a work cell with 1,1/2 men to completely manage sheet goods, cut, mark, assemble boxes,kit up hardware and faceframes, clean up, maintain machine, and he have time to spare. Now the back up is the final assembly finishing room since there is no job that is not off the machine in 24 to 48 hours and at least boxes partially assembled
GO GO GO and don't look back

[woodturner]

Thanks to all responders! We are going to try and re-configure the vac zones to fit our sheet goods, and maybe design a pop up pin system. Neither of which it seems cost effective to automate, but we’ll see. I will replace my VFD-A with a VFD-B and try the spindle speed control. Then we’ll try another job and see if our time beats the existing panel cell. The last time we tried, we did not fare very well. I will keep you all “posted.”

Many Thanks!

[woodworx]

I run most all my parts at 12,000 rpm's and have never had a problem. Maybe you are reading into the problems a bit too much. Pop up pins shouldn't be necessary for sheet goods, just line up your edges of the sheets when you load them. I always make my my model in ArtCam 96X48 so you always know where you are cutting on your table. If you are cutting small parts, use a scrap sheet and pocket out a place for your material to sit in. Then you can machine inside that pocket you designed in A.C. and know exactly where you are cutting. A.C. also allows you to cut out usable material after nesting is done. If you have a decent left over piece of material, it will just cut it out for you....Therefore creating less scrap. Some of those small off cuts can be used for cleats/stretchers, or whatever you want.

[Gary Campbell]

Ed...
I just put air operated pins and panel side line up fences on my machine. I forgot to put this in my email. You better book a trip to our camp in a month!
Gary

[drodda]

Ed,

Where are you located? Maybe I missed this?

Gary,
Shame on you for a shameless self promotion of your camp! All in the heart of Winter here in the heartland. I hope you can sleep at night?

-D

[Gary Campbell]

Ed...
Dont know where you are on this project... but I did just post a video of at least one corner of my panel indexing system. It is the same on the other side of the table. (sorry for not turning off the vacuum)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhL0F5GWZp8&feature=channel_page

And a video of panels being processed using the indexing feature:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk_zWioyvQs&feature=channel

I will try and get one posted of the vertical panel ends being drilled by the weekend. (PTP STYLE)
Gary

[woodturner]

Nice work Gary!

To tell the truth I have gotten no where fast on this. I've moved the machine and ran new electric. I've priced solid PVC @$300+ for a 4x8 (I need 2) or Sintra @$150 each. I'm thinking of going with the latter unless I'm missing why I need the solid PVC. I am working with SB to get the new style drill working within the "footprint" of my machine, but it's a tough assignment.

Looking for a second VFD "B" to add the speed control to both spindles. The vacuum system still has to be worked out. As does the pop up pins (or similar). So, still hopeful, but lost some momentum. Right now we are still faster on our other machines, but we are OUT OF WORK so neither system is working at all, just being worked on!

Kind Regards

[Gary Campbell]

Ed...
I have the video that shows the end drilling and assembly. This is not a big production setup, but shows that if you keep after it, it can be done. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yX-ZrDt2sM

Here is the video of the Pop up pins and fences, this time without the vacuum noise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDlRTOG9B4M

Gary