Is anyone using a tool changer?

[dray]

Curious if anyone is using that tool changer.
http://www.midwestrapidtool.com/index.htm

I have a few grand to spend and am now unsure wether to get a tool changer or the vac setup?

My shop is now pretty streamlined except tool changing when making doors and the relatively short time it takes to tack down a sheet.

Im curious as to how the software interfaces with shopbot code for tool changing, if ai have to add multiple strings to tool change for every set of doors, would it be simpler to continue manually changing or get a tool changer.

I have the shop setup now where I cut my cabinetry and I have 2 employees put cabinets together and also install, and I stay at the shop and fill door and misc cnc orders..

Any help appreciated

[Brady Watson]

Can't help you on the toolchanger...but if I had to pick investing in vacuum or a toolchanger, dollar for dollar, I'd pick the vacuum system. A decent vac system will save you gobs of time and let you cut things you can't hold down any other way. A toolchanger is a good move when you are cutting the same parts over and over again, like a manufacturer of specific parts that require routine toolchanges. Having one for the occasional 2 or 3 bit per sheet/part is usually overkill, and more of a pain to get dialed in reliably than you would imagine. A toolchanger sure is a sexy accessory...but the vacuum will boost your production more than a toolchanger at this stage in the game.

-B

[dray]

With that said, I am still deciding on a 3 fein system or a commercial system

[myxpykalix]

Danny since most of what you do is sheets of mdf, if you go with a 4 zone with 2 fein's you can probably get the plumbing and vacs for around $700.00 which will be plenty hold down for big sheets and the noise level will be much lower. Don't get hooked into "Bigger is Better" with the vac system. I'm no expert and that is just my opinion, but you know what they say..."opinions are like a******s, everyone has one".

[fleinbach]

Danny,


I have to agree with Brady a vacuum will be one of the best investments you will ever make to your Shopbot. As I have mentioned in here before I would have done it sooner if I had known what a benefit it would be. As to your decision to use 3 Feins or a commercial unit this is my opinion. From what I have seen of your work and have gathered from your comments you mostly cut full sheet and very few small parts. In that case I would say the Feins will work very well, plus you get the bonus of a much quieter system.

As for my opinion of using multiple Feins I will say I purchased and experimented with 2 Feins before I broke down and purchased the 7.5 blower from Shopbot. What I learned when using the 2 Feins is than unless you set them up to independent zones you get absolutely no benefit whatsoever. I made many tests when connected to the same line and my results showed that the increase in holding power could barely be detected on my vacuum gauge. The same was true for air flow. The 2 vac hook up recorded the same drop in vacuum after cutting the same parts. So to me the only way to benefit from multiple Feins would be to put them on separate zones that way when the first zone is cut through and you lose holding power another zone is still holding the sheet solidly in place. You will still need to tab small parts to keep them from popping loose.


I personally like the security of the extra holding power of the 7.5hp blower. I do not tab anything anymore. I just leave a very thin skin to hold the parts from shifting. and have cut parts as small as 2" in diameter with an uncut spiral with no problem.

[henrik_o]

Danny,

I already stated in the other thread that I think you would benefit greatly from a competent vacuum system.

However, depending on your construction methods, if you have "a few grand to spend" I would also look into the air drill unit from Shopbot. I was supposed to get one with my PRS, but they hadn't readied the unit by that time so it was delivered without.

AFAIK, there's still not been an announcement, but if you look at the videos Ryan Patterson posted in the CabinetParts Pro thread there's one called "drilling" and lo and behold, it shows the new PRS air drill in action. I have some serious lust for that thing, so I really hope an announcement is in the making.

[henrik_o]

Jack,

quote:Don't get hooked into "Bigger is Better" with the vac system.

Oh, come on now.

Bigger is Always Better when it comes to vacuum, everyone knows that


Seriously though, everyone has a threshold where added vacuum hold down and flow is unnecessary for the vast majority of work, so you need to figure out where that line lies. I personally believe that the desired threshold for a PRS used in a production environment is high enough that the difference in price between a 'huge shopvac system' or a small industrial unit tends to melt away.

I could be wrong, but it's my best guess this far into the game.

[thewoodcrafter]

Danny, you may want to look at this thread.

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/cnc.pl?rev=533901

[thewoodcrafter]

Sorry to disagree Jack but Bigger is Better when it comes to vacuum!

A lot less worrying about it.
Not closing off a zone because you cut through and are going to loose vacuum for the rest.
Less table surfacing.
Less worrying about part size and location on the sheet.
Less work cleaning up parts with tabs or skins.
This adds a whole operation to processing parts.
Less damaged parts.

Higher production with a lot less fiddling around.
You don't want someone standing there watching how the cut is going worrying about part movement. When you are processing 15 to 20 sheets bigger is better. Remaking parts is a real pain. And shooting holes in some material is not an option.

Initial table build is important either way. I am just now adding a gasket around my table under my spoil board because 15HP at 330CFM and 14" wasn't doing as well as I wanted.

[john_l]

I keep seeing mention of "leaving a skin" to maintain vacuum and I have never understood what this means... Is it that you are coming just short of cutting through the material?

If this is the case.. how do you maintain sharp, square edges on the finished pieces? Do you push them through and then sand the ridges off? I can't picture melamine, acrylic, or even mdf working that way very good.

I may be way off. Please clarify.

[john_l]

Sorry I changed the subject Danny.

[rhfurniture]

I often just leave half a mm, cut with a sharp knife, then trim with a handheld laminate trimmer. Quick, good finish - but then I only do small quantities, so it makes for easy setup and/or little damage to the table.

[bleeth]

Danny: You will find that those who have never had spindles don't know why you would need one, those who use shop-vacs (by ANY manufacturer) don't know why you would need a regenerative blower, and those who don't have tool changers don't understand why you would want one. The fact is, as you wish to get more and more production out of your machine all three are valuable tools for the cabinet shop oriented CNC. To answer your specific question, I have never used or know anyone personally who has used that toolchange system. If I didn't have a spindle I would look closely at it as cabinet parts processing can be so much more efficient with the ability to change tools without going through the whole manual process and then re zeroing before starting the next sequence it is amazing. Shopbot has developed it's own tool changer system to be used with a spindle with the right shaft but it is pricey. That being said, since they offer their own version than it must be code-able. I would call SB and talk to Frank about it if I were you.

Dave

[elcruisr]

For the work I do a tool changer would be nice but far from necessary. A spindle is very much a necessity! My 15 hp regen is a necessity, Feins would never replace what I do with it. Now a 40 hp Travainni, that would be really nice but far from necessary!

[paul60]

I have tried leaving the skin method. maybe it works with MDF but it sure dont work using ply.
the problem is cutting through that last laminate skin. with a knife. it always seem to damage the underside of the work.
i cut panels for cabinets with no vacuum.
i just use tabs i use a 3/8 bit and leave a 1/2 space between parts tabs are 1/4 high 1/2 long.
whats is important is that the tabs be places
directly opposite each other.
that way the hold each other together.
four screws on the corners of the 4x8 sheet to keep the sheet in place.
so far never had a problem with parts moving
paul