Chinese CNC Routers [Archive] - Let's Talk ShopBot

mikejohn

12-10-2005, 07:54 AM

Do not under estimate the threat to manufacturers from China.
If the items are junk at the moment they will try to improve them.
It has been discussed here, and many other places, that the growth of Chinese manufacture is a real threat to many western companies.
Whilst shopBot has the superb back up they have, there position should remain strong. Manufacturers of mass-production items that need little or no back up have real reason to worry.
It has been described as standing in the middle of the road dodging the cars and trucks of normal business problems, not noticing you are standing on a railway track with a 500 ton train thundering towards you.
Whatever you are making, try to personalise it, make made to measure, find a niche, avoid mass production.
Just look at the American (and European) industries that have dissapeared because of foreign imports.
I make toys, amongst other things.
88%, I will repeat 88% of all toys sold in the world are made in China.
Good old names like Disney and Barbie have "Made in China" printed all over them.
Be prepared to change often if you wish to stay in business.

...............Mike

jhicks

12-10-2005, 12:06 PM

You gotta take a stand somewhere. I am sure I'm not the only one who has watched their industry move to China and found mself happily able to move forward with the Bot. I never want to go back to big business and commodity parts but know the China threat is no longer a threat, its an economic war which we are rapidly losing. I hate to think what will happen when they electrify that country and my kids try to understand how we lost our global power in manufacturing but I'm afraid thats where its headed.
The good news is many folks are tired of it and searching for that unique custom, one of a kind piece so Bot On Boys. There are definately plenty of opportunities out there.

rustnrot

12-10-2005, 12:48 PM

Let me get this staight, the next time somebody asks me the specs on a boat I am building I think I will say "It just like the most perfect boat in the world but without some of the bells and whistles. If you did any research at all you know you can spend millions of dollars for a boat. This is no $100 thousand dollar boat but is priced 10's of thousands less than other boats without all the bells and whistles". There! Described it perfectly!

That ought to do it in the eyes of this dude........

Brady Watson

12-10-2005, 02:21 PM

Over the past 2 years there have been several new CNC machines listed on Ebay from various sources that simply do not exist in the physical world...a bit of smoke and mirrors designed to simply feel out the demand for these tools and nothing more. I have inquired about several of them only to find that aside from a prototype, the machines were not 'yet' for sale. On a few occasions, these places told me straight out that it was modelled directly off of the ShopBot, 'but better'...This example that Mark posted appears to be real in the physical world, but I doubt very much that it could compete against ShopBot in the real world (meaning the USA...with no offense to my ShopBot brothers in Europe et al)

My reasons for this include the fact that it doesn't include control software (you have to pay for Mach3 and figure out how to use it...for a newbie this is not easy)...it includes no design software...again, if you never owned a CNC before you're in for a suprise. We are REALLY lucky to have PartWizard...The motors on teh machine are unipolar...while they will move the machine, they are indicative of A) Cheap electronics to drive them and B) Lackluster performance. The machine uses 'ball screws'...these are probably cheap, and in my book not the best solution for a CNC router due to contamination. The Z-axis screw makes sense for accuracy, but still has 'swarf' issues. It says it has a 2HP SPINDLE...looks to me like a cheap PC-style Harbor Freight router...but the biggest issue here is support. We're not talking a table saw or drill press here. We are talking about a robotic tool in the entry-level price range. Without support, training and a knowledge base to refer to, this is nothing more than a hunk of steel to a newbie user...(perhaps even a novice user as well) need I go on?

If we are going to compare apples to apples, then let's compare a PRT with no software (control or CAD or CAM) with steel table shipped to your door (not $1000 to get it to your nearest PORT and then to your door)...You will find by the time that you add everything up that the PRT is just about the same price...with a LIFETIME of support from an established brick & mortar 10yr old company, right here in our backyard.

Maybe I am preaching to the choir...but I am extrememly opposed to Chinese imports, especially in the tool world. They are junk. They take good working jobs away from our family and friends. On many occasions I have turned away work from people looking to machine a prototype to send over to China for mass production. As an American, I am doing my small part by paying extra for goods to keep my frends and family working...and to keep our money HERE. Pardon my ranting, but it makes me sick to watch the largest manufacturing/industrial nation throw it away to China.

-Brady

paco

12-10-2005, 02:50 PM

8739

The more you spend around (near) the more your surounding will purchase from you; this money back! Spread the words!

I say choose products that you can by localy as a standard and only import if needed...

Sadely, it tend to be hard to get local products; one have to be aware and look CLOSELY.

gerald_d

12-10-2005, 02:51 PM

So you don't want the Delta VFD's, or the MeanWell power supplies? Why is stuff from Japan (V-rollers, Oriental Motor) okay - but the stuff from their neighbour must be banned??

Brady Watson

12-10-2005, 04:19 PM

Gerald,
We are not talking about a $200 Meanwell or $500 VFD...we are talking about several thousands of dollars and where that money goes. BIG difference. If those things were available from the US, I am sure that ShopBot would be inclined to go with the American part over the imported part for several reasons.

You have a penchant to play devil's advocate...You know as well as I do, that you do the best that you can with what's available. There are no more American made TVs, VCRs, DVD players, very few phones (if any now) etc, etc. If they made an American XYZ, then that would be my 1st option for MOST goods. An American samurai sword for example, would most likely be inferior to one purchased from Japan. But this is just what I do...others may just opt for the 'cheap' way out...which I think just sells out the next generation to pay for this one. There are few things that are also made outside the States that are superior in quality. People still think that Japanese cars are SO much more reliable than American cars...This is complete nonsense carried over from that days when this WAS true for about 15 years. They all break regardless of make...so buy one that is made here by one of your friends or neighbors.

Gearald, how do you feel about this issue as it relates to South Africa? Is this an issue there? Do you have pride of country and execute things for the good of your family & countrymen?

-Brady

bob_lofthouse

12-10-2005, 04:45 PM

It's interesting to see the point of view of americans.

Being british I can say that my country has been there and lost that.

If you read any History book the lesson you should learn is that great empires don't last for ever.

The chinese are the next great industrial empire to emerge but even the fabric of their society is starting to change.

I know of quite a few companies who have considered moving their manufacturing to china (Ie just importing goods) and the biggest complaint I hear is that the prototype is very high spec but subsequent products fall short of the required standard.

Just my 2 cents after coming back from the pub... hic!

stevem

12-10-2005, 05:01 PM

I think it's a safe bet that the Chinese will never be successful in flooding North America with cheap Bully Beef.

hespj

12-10-2005, 05:49 PM

"Being british I can say that my country has been there and lost that.".......Robert L

I think Robert's right. And yet we're still the 4th wealthiest nation on Earth (I think). What happened? We moved on.

Robert lives in the part of England that invented mass production. Now it's gone. Sadly lamented by all? Hardly.

I have to admit to having bought quite a few items in the last year with "made in China" marked on the back. But on the front it says Dell, Netgear, or whatever. Whose making the money?

joe

12-10-2005, 07:07 PM

Here's what I found:

New Dayton CNC Router - $4999

Many people have been asking us for a lower priced router so now we have developed one.

While this is a lower price machine it is not junk or a toy and it ranks up there with many of the best and please understand you would pay 5 times this price retail for a machine of the same quality.

There are photos with and with out controller, this auction does include a full 3 axis controller.

4x8 cnc router, ball screw in the X Y & Z axis, the rails are 3/4 dia. the Z axis is 6" this has t-slot top , the steppers are unipolar 300 oz , it does come with a controller that connects to your pc, It also has a 2 hp spindle. Resolution on the unit is 0.001 or better, we will provide a link to download Mach2 demo if you like it you pay the vendor $150.00 or we can give you links to some free programs it just that Mach2 has tool path display and this option is hard to find on software under $1,000.00 so it is a good deal see Mach3 training video at http://www.machsupport.com/

The machine has a 2 year warranty on all parts.

This machine is not located in the US but is ready to ship.

Shipping cost is $795.00 delivered to your nearest port, buyer pays $295.00 crate fee.

Weight is 1284 lbs

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bobstand

12-10-2005, 09:12 PM

The “Race to the Bottom” has been underway for several years through out the world. There is probably not one person on this forum that has not at one time in their life thought that “if only I could come up with a magic widget” and take it to China and have it made there; fortunes could be reaped. Unfortunately, businesses through out the world have done just that and made fortunes. The downside has been the loss of jobs to cheap labor. As John H. said “who is making the money?” We know for sure it is not the person who lost his job to a country that provides cheaper labor. Here in the good old USA, millions of jobs have been lost. I am sure that other parts of the world could say the same thing about their job market. If we did a survey of the people who have purchased a ShopBot, I am sure that a big percentage have purchased in hopes of finding a niche market to produce an income, because they have lost their job or at risk of losing it in the future. Cheap labor is an aphrodisiac! I am not sure that it is an answer in the long term if economies of entire countries are undermined. Myself, I do not purchase “Made in China” if I can purchase a quality product produced in any other country that does not exploit Cheap Labor.
The ShopBot CNC and the forum with its community of users offer a whole new realm of possibilities in a competitive market. In the past small companies were at a disadvantage to larger companies. Now that these larger companies have moved their production offshore, selection has become limited to what is available in the big box stores. There are many benefits of small shops selling in local areas. Just because a product is produced in volume at a very low cost does not always relate to a lower cost to the consumer. There are freight and distribution cost that must be added.
As I read the forum, I am encouraged that several CNC shops have found that their customers consider custom made furniture or cabinets are superior and more popular than out of the box products.
The game may just be tilting to the thousands of small ShopBot shops. We can provide “custom made” at a reasonable price, made by a local shop without time delays, freight and distribution. We can also “fix it” if the customer has a problem.
Something that our group may consider is a better organized Co-Operative. A strong Co-Op could have purchasing power on products used to produce the items we sell in our local market. Perhaps some people in our group have equipment available with excess capacity that could be utilized to enhance or add value to what we already offer. (Heat form, Vacuum form, ???)
I have been a long time proponent of “small regional” ShopBot groups that could get-together to share technology and training projects. It is a large investment in time and money to enter into a CNC business. The power of a group meeting on a regular schedule could prove to be very rewarding.
If you have gotten this far reading this, thank you! I just felt that I had to same something on this topic.

gerald_d

12-11-2005, 01:48 AM

Brady, I am genuinely trying to understand why Americans are starting to accept Japan as an "ally" and rejecting China as an "enemy". In my short lifetime, I have seen Japan being viewed as China is now - in the 60's the Japanese were the big copiers making junk in sweatshops. We also had the Russians making stuff in sweatshops - we thought it was not junk because they put a man in space first..... Anyway, we see these bogeymen come and go. (Let's not talk of Saddam who was thought to have huge WMD stockpiles).

On a smaller scale, nearer home, my grandmother used to slave in a hot kitchen baking all day. We don't bake in our house any more, we "import" our bread. And I don't want to see my daughter being tied to a stove. Do you want to see your kids in sooty factories pouring steel? If not, don't deny your global neighbour the chance to do it for a price to improve his life.

The point is that the world is a dynamic place. Things change. Either we adapt or stagnate. Does America want to become a huge Amish community, insisting on baking its own bread?

"Gearald, how do you feel about this issue as it relates to South Africa? Is this an issue there? Do you have pride of country and execute things for the good of your family & countrymen?"

Over here we have sympathy with China, and many other countries in the same situation. If you think there is resistance to buying "Made in China", you should feel the resistance to "Made in Africa". I certainly feel it. And I also see the logical consequence - we develop a resistance to stuff marked "Made in the USA". Do I have pride in my country? Hell, YES, and I think it shows. I am particularly proud in how we don't cling to the "good old days" because they weren't good - we have learnt to adapt to changing conditions and to look forward rather than back.

mikejohn

12-11-2005, 01:48 AM

I am pleased that this is an issue that many are taking on board.
There exists a solution for all of us small shop owners, but it is not the traditional one.
If you are sub-contracting to a mass producer, think hard about his market.
One of the problems is becoming parochial. The US of A can not put up huge barriers around its borders and hope to survive at the standards it has now.
Brady's comment in the real world (meaning the USA...with no offense to my ShopBot brothers in Europe et al) is extraordinary. The population of the EU (a single market place) is almost double that of the USA (470 million compared to 297). Add both populations together and its just about half of Chinas.
If Brady meant the 'real world' was his 'real world' then the comment makes sense. To compete with our smaller companies we are going to get the greatest success by concentrating on our real worlds, those localities close to our shops. Or a world market but for that elusive niche product.
To say you are not going to buy Chinese (or any other cheap import) is ingenuouse.
Hugo Boss pays $12 for a shirt made in China and sells it for $125 in New York.
As Gerald pointed out, we rely on imported manufacturers who make better cheaper. If ShopBot gave you the opportunity of buying a machine with motors of equal spec, but choosing American at double the price, which would you go with?
Certainly you can feel better in yourself by buying home produced products, but if this is business orientated, increasing your costs, you will be increasing your prices, making yourself less competitive.
I only know the statistics for toys, as stated above, but I suspect that 88% (or worse) is also there in clothing, electronics, whatever.
I am not going to get upset about anyone espousing to support your country by buying locally. The less your competitive edge, the greater is mine.
My point in expanding this thread was to make all of us open our eyes, not to see what is coming but to see what has already arrived.
This is not doom and gloom. It's an opportunity to take the best advantage we have over our competitors, an affordable CNC machine, and to make sure we are in a sustainable market.
You will not find chinese Sign Makers for local businesses.
Signs are one-off personal. Be unique, personalise, avoid mass production.
And enjoy the rest of the weekend.

.................Mike

gerald_d

12-11-2005, 02:44 AM

Mike, I posted a couple of seconds before you.

Major explosions in London again? (at a fuel depot)

benchmark

12-11-2005, 03:32 AM

Gerald

I am about 5 miles from the explosion at Hemel Hempstead, I shoot out of bed at 6am with the explosion at a major fuel depot. The explosion was heard over 40 miles away

bleeth

12-11-2005, 03:33 AM

The "Real World" is not about nationalism or politics. It is about money and getting the most profits for the investment. The major differences lie only in the economics of scale. As one laments that the (for example) domestic furniture making business has departed from their own country and fled to China where the labor is cheaper, we can watch the personal income level rise in China for a while, fuel it's own engine, and then seek the next cheap goods source as it's labor prices escalate beyond the consumer supported price threshold. Already huge furniture plants are operating in Viet-Nam turning out product for the European and American Market cheaper then it can be built in Guang Dong. The reason there is employment and market for the goods that we (the community of shop-botters and like minded individualists) produce is that the demand for our specialized products is not large enough to foster enough competition which would, of course, depress the price below acceptance. In the meantime it isn't high enough to do much more than earn us a living either which is why the "woodworkers" I know who are actually making the kind of money their customers earn are either producing contract furniture with lots of imported cheap labor or operating storefronts for "custom" work that comes in flat-packed RTA.

Dave

bleeth

12-11-2005, 03:49 AM

Reuters reports the explosions appear to be from an accident at the plant.

bob_lofthouse

12-11-2005, 05:32 AM

Another way to look at it is that I and others shouldn't have purchased and imported our cnc machines from the USA but paid 3 times the price for a UK machine, and should I send my Range Rover Freelander back because the manufacturer is owned by ford or even switch my pc off because it runs on windows.

All of the above wouldn't be a good idea because without the shopbot I couldnt grow my business, I wouldn't have a car because we no longer own our own car plants and where is linux made...

90% of the plywood cut in my business is from china. French, Finnish and Brazilian Plywood is too expensive..... And who would think a product from South America would be too expensive.

One of my concerns when importing the shopbot from america was the ongoing (still ongoing) and not very well publicised trade war with the USA and the European Union. There are tit for tat import tax rises all other the place.

mikejohn

12-11-2005, 06:54 AM

The point in all this for ShopBotters, or any small manufacturing business is to play to your strengths.
When I left school it was with the belief we could have a job with one company for life.
Then it changed to a career for life.
Now people should expect to change for or five times in a working life.
Look hard at the industry you are in. Find out everything you can about what people are making with CNC machines.
Adapt, invent, put 2 and 2 together to come up with something different.
Imagine a network of Shopbotters in different countries making the same product, but being able to put "Made in South Africa" or "Made in England" or "Made in USA" on it. Would it help with marketing?
There was talk elsewhere about promoting your business with chocolate business cards.
Is this a service you could sell to other businesses?
Or designer shortbread?
Everytime I hear what people are doing in business I wonder if it could be adapted for me. I don't divide my time in such a way that Im doing so many things I concentrate on nothing. However, if the 'bot isn't making that horrible noise, it isn't earning money.
I realise there is a difficulty sharing business ideas and projects. Most of you live in the United States, and may easily compete with one another. General ideas and thoughts could be shared more, possibly.

in Google earth the explosion happened at 51º45'35"N 0º25'8"W, the brown patch to the west ofthe M1 motorway. It's causing huge traffic problems, as they have closed 3 motorways. Latest news have 2 seriosly hurt. It might have been a lot worse.

mikejohn

12-11-2005, 06:58 AM

One addition to Roberts comments.
Roxana drives a Japanese car made in the north east of England by British workers.
How do we deal with this?
...............Mike

bob_lofthouse

12-11-2005, 09:57 AM

The makers of the machine seem to be http://www.diaokeji.cn/en/cp.htm

max feed rate appears to be 3 inch per second for their machines with all the bells and whistles.

jhicks

12-11-2005, 10:51 AM

Interesting that many of the Chinese manufacturing "plants" are really small cottage labor shops doing all hand work for a bit of food. (sound familiar) I guess we think of stereotypical factories being "the right way to fabricate" but increasingly smaller seems to be better in terms of customization and independance. We will never get the fabric mills or PC assembly shops back and maybe we don't want them for good economic or environmental reasons. Hopefully this open intellectual and physical capacity in our economy will be filled with more creative and opportunistic products and people to allow us to maintain our leadership role. The one statistic I always think of is that the ranking of major powers is directly related to their electrical power generation. USA has always ranked # 1 but watch out for that Hydro Electric project on the yang seh river. It will dwarf the Hoover Damn and open a monumental industrial revolution in China and drive their stand of living upward. Of course then another country will take the "low cost lead" and the Chinese will complain that they can't compete just as stated above.
Guess we all need to suck it up and evolve to these realities as Mike says but I still hate to see it. Just glad I have a BOT to help make the adjustment.
I do think that the shop bot community is in a postion to "leverage" our collective strengths and push suppliers for better material and service prices as well as establish complimentary capacity relationships as Bob suggests. Not sure how or when it will take place but if the "vinyl franchises" can get group purchasing leverage, why can't a "virtual BOT buying group" get the same advantages to help us all be more competitive in our local markets?
Guess it boils down to creative selling at both the the buy and sell end of the transaction. Bot On Boys!

mossie_jim

12-11-2005, 11:33 AM

A part of the equation not considered has been the implications of national defense the Chinese rise portends. With the decline of every other industrialized western nation there has been another democratic nation, with a strong military, to fill the void. With the US now in decline as an industrial power and the US Military being reduced to the level of easily being challenged by the Chinese in 10 years. Who in the western world will be able to defend any democracy? NATO has not had the will to fight for anything.

Gerald - Japan did not have a military during its rise. Cool for them, the US provided the “guns” and they concentrated on “butter”. China has a military, the world’s largest. Everything in China is cheaper, even war.

Will our Constitutions read “Made in China” in thirty years?

Extreme but possible and food for thought.
Jim

bob_lofthouse

12-11-2005, 11:56 AM

Jim,

Borders change all the time.... Nothing is ever constant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependent_area

How long before for instance Puerto Rico wants independance.

I myself would rather England be a State in the USA than a part of Europe.

mikejohn

12-11-2005, 12:07 PM

I think we should take back what was taken from us in 1776.
And insist they all speak (and spell) English correctly!

bob_lofthouse

12-11-2005, 12:23 PM

Could we narrow that down to just taking back the places that are now nice holiday resorts.

One wonders if there are any swedish/danish/norwegian vikings or roman italians saying the same about the UK.

gerald_d

12-11-2005, 12:39 PM

Mike, what are your feelings on Romania and its neighbours. Years ago these were part of the East Bloc / Communist threat - was that perception justified?

mossie_jim

12-11-2005, 12:42 PM

Bob and Mike-

So true, change is the only constant.

Puerto Rico, our largest welfare state, has had several elections on the issue and have so far decided to stick with Uncle Sam.

I like England and her civility. I hope the US can transition as well as the UK.

Any Mosquito bits laying about? I'm using my bot to help restore a "Wooden Wonder".

Cheers,
Jim

mikejohn

12-11-2005, 12:52 PM

In my previous existence I worked in East Germany, Hungary, Chech Republic, Slovakia, Poland and Romania.
It was strange photographing from the air sites that I had previously known (in my RAF days), as NATO targets! Sitting in a hotel room in east Berlin in 1990 with maps that would, at the best, have given me a long jail term just 12 months earlier had I been caught with them.
How times quickly change.
With the exception of East Germany, all the others detested Russian rule.
The USSR needed these countries as a buffer between the west and the mother land.
From what I understand these nations were never an independant threat to the west.
Now they are more western than most other countries, the dollar and euro reign supreme.
And they are a huge emerging market.
Mine is the only CNC machine in a radius of 200km, apart from a huge heavy metal one in a big furniture factory that is fully taken up with its production work.
My problem is educating locals to use our services (although its happening more and more).
Roll on Romanias entry into the EU in 2007

............Mike

bob_lofthouse

12-11-2005, 01:07 PM

Jim,

I wouldn't say that we've transitioned well... we're just resigned to the invevitable.

The Scots, Welsh and Irish all celebrate their own national identities but to celebrate being English is frowned upon as it might cause offence.

hespj

12-11-2005, 03:36 PM

Jim, I don't think there's much lying about. Some people go to great lengths to get hold of these parts. I know somebody who visited the crash site of a Lancaster in the Lake District. The plane had just hit the ridge and tumbled down the far side. To his suprise one of the engines was still on site on the side of the mountain. Over a couple of holidays he and some like minded friends managed to ease the engine down the mountain side and hid it near the road. When they returned with a van it had gone.

Just shows the lengths people will go to to get hold of these parts.

.............

I'm English. I'm not proud of being English or England, that would imply that I thought England was a better country than others and we were better people (which as you know, we're not).

.............

If I was the US or UK government, industry or media, I would very much like to encourage the idea of "don't buy Chinese" without actually saying so.

mossie_jim

12-11-2005, 06:25 PM

Thanks John,

Guess maybe I have a myopic view of the UK and the English. I like both.

I have made many friends there while searching for Mossie bits and as a US Marine during joint maneuvers with the Royal Marines.

Still a Brit Fan,
Jim

Brady Watson

12-11-2005, 06:37 PM

Good ideas expressed here...however most of them are from a European perspective, which is VERY different from those of us who live & breathe in the US every day. I think that it is funny how Europeans call us lazy when they are the ones who take 2-month long 'holiday'...We would love to do that...but simply cannot afford it! I don't know a thing about day to day living in Europe, and conversely I would venture to say that Europeans know nothing about living in the US day to day. (of course there are exceptions to everything I just said so if you are sensitive, it wasn't for you to read and get bent out of shape over)

The fact of the matter remains that if you keep buying imports that are comparably produced within your own villiage, that it will eventually impact everyone in that villiage.

I try hard not to buy products from communist nations, those who expoit children and have people working in deplorable conditions for little pay. It simply isn't right...for no other reason than, "Hey...what if that was me over there?"

Personally I DO think that the US is the best place to live at the moment, but never think that we are any better than anyone else. The issue here is the impact of Chinese products on the US...and the reasons why we should buy products from our own villiage to the benefit of our friends, family and neighbors.

-Brady

evan

12-11-2005, 09:48 PM

Think Globally, Act Locally. It's a nice slogan, but as with any slogan, a bit simplistic. It's a global economy. I make parts for a company in Hawaii that sells their products in Japan. If I only buy locally then should I only sell locally? I would have to do with out a great number of items which are indispensable to living in this day and age if I only bought locally (meaning that which was produced within a few hundred miles.) I think that we must make informed decision: How was this product produced? Was it made humanely; slave labor?, child labor?, living wage?, good worker conditions? Was it made or harvested in an ecological way? Because my village is really just becoming a neighborhood of the Global Village and the only way I can effect change is by example,
in what I purchase and how I act and conduct my business and personal life.
Now, I have to get off my high horse and go have some dinner…

Evan

mrdovey

12-11-2005, 10:14 PM

Sorry I'm late...

I just read Mike John's bit: "Imagine a network of Shopbotters in different countries making the same product, but being able to put "Made in South Africa" or "Made in England" or "Made in USA" on it. Would it help with marketing?"

This is a concept that I've been mulling over a lot this past year - and I think is worth serious consideration. I've had inquiries from Europe about my solar heating panels (most recently from Greece) and have wished that I could pass the business (and the part programs) on to another 'Botter closer to the customer for local fabrication and delivery - in return for a share of the profit. There are some difficulties in doing this; but I think those could be overcome.

Mike, you initiated this sub-thread - would you care to expand on your ideas?

daniel

12-11-2005, 10:50 PM

I'm going to put on my shoes made in China, and drive my American made car down to buy some Mexican food! Tacos!

However, I do wonder if things I buy from China help fund a Government that supresses the freedom of its people. Am I helping a slave driver every time I make a purchase?

Brady Watson

12-11-2005, 11:34 PM

Bob & Morris,
I think that this idea has been around for a while...the problem is coming up with a reliable system so that everyone makes out. If I was entrusting my product to someone else, there would have to be some QC involved.

How would we go about creating a network like this? What would it look like?

-Brady

gerald_d

12-12-2005, 12:41 AM

A past-ShopBotter, Olivier Geoffroy, expressed this vision of a "global network" at the turn of the millenium. He still alludes to it under The Project on this page (http://www.untothislast.co.uk/about.html).

mikejohn

12-12-2005, 01:25 AM

My point in posting my first post was simple, without moral, jingoistic or parochial agenda.
Irregardless of where its coming from, manufactured good of good quality are being imported into your market place to sell at a retail price you could not hope to manufacture for.
This is the issue. It's a done deal. Construct your lives and business to take this into account. This is the real world.
Adapt or go under.

.......................Mike

hespj

12-12-2005, 04:05 AM

Mike, of course you are absolutely right, but is this anything new? I remember that in my childhood all my toys had "Made in Hong Kong" stamped on the back, (hopefully my sons toys will have "Made in Romania" cnc'ed on the back). At that time, would your message have been the same? Isn't it true that since the industrial revolution the craftsman, or one-person maker, has had to find a niche.

I wonder if anybody is in fact using their ShopBots in a way which might be threatened by ultra cheap imports. Most of the examples of work I've seen which is being made by my fellow botters seems to be one-offs, small runs, high quality work, but maybe that's just the stuff that gets shown off.

Non the less your message is sound. One thing I would add to it is that these imports always seem to lack aesthetically. It's very hard for a eastern culture to understand the vocabulary of western aesthetics, just as it's impossible for me to understand the vocabulary of the Chinese languages. We can make stuff that looks good (if we try very hard) where they can't.

In my experience the top off the market is the place to aim for. Again and again I've heard customers say "This IS the only one in the world like it isn't it?" or words to that effect, and pay accordingly.

mikejohn

12-12-2005, 07:03 AM

John
From my understanding, the difference between imports of the past, and today, is simply the scale.
I agree with everything you say about finding your particular niche.
I can tell instantly if a Rocking Horse has been made in the far east for the very reason you state, that the aesthetics are wrong. But can a customer. Buy a rocking horse from me it is guaranteed for life. I actually saw an import for sale on eBay, with the remark "There are fine cracks along some of the joints, but I understand all rocking horses have these".
It was a quarter the price of mine though!

................Mike

marshawk

12-12-2005, 08:17 AM

Everyone should be proud of the country that they are from and support her policies. Everyone who IS proud of his country SHOULD want his countries peoples to prosper and disourage purchases from other countries.

Our standard of living in the US ensures that we can never beat the Chinese in manufacturing. Why? Unions. Unions are good and bad. The good is that they don't allow companies to run roughshod over their employees. They are bad because their main concern is not that the employee produce a quality product or work efficiently - that's the companies job.

The Chinese don't have labor unions and people have to work hard to make a living or they are out of a job. That's how it should be. Here we alwyas look for mitigating factors as to why the employee couldn't perform. (Watch the movie Office Space. There is more truth to that movie than meets the eye.)

Another biggie is transportation. Every country that I have visited has whopping big mass transportation systems. People can walk out of their apartment, get on a bus or underground and get to work. Here, everyone wants to have their house in the country and drive to work. We like to spread out and have some space around us.

And so on and so on... It is expensive to live in the US and that drives our costs up.

It's a very tough nut to crack. I love living in the USA. I wish that the whole world would just get along and play nicely together. But until all of the Saddams, Kim Jong Il's and Chiracs are out of power, we just stay in our separate spaces and complain about our lots in life.

Until that day comes, I am a US citizen and will continue to root for "our side". I have to. I live here and to do anything else would hurt MY standard of living.

Anyway... I hope that I haven't offende anyone. It's great that we can discuss this in a rational manner, and across political boundaries.

Cheers!

Chip

rhfurniture

12-12-2005, 09:50 AM

This is turning into some topic.
I am a great admirer of the Han (chinese). I even copy their furniture - they were making to a quality of joinery and finish back in the 15th Ce that would put us to shame for many centuries thereafter. Before, and of course during the second world war they were exploited (we brits made a fortune out of the opium market) and raped (Nanjing, the Japanese) and their "strong" communist government was a "never again" response. They are a people of great courage (I have the poster of the man and the tank in Tian an Men) who are the only country to date to actually do something positive about the increasing world population (even if it was a bit flawed). They will do quality, and they will do it at least as well as we can (as did the Japanese, Koreans, etc).
It is natural, and definitely a part of the American tradition, to defend your homestead - I will always remember my (now) American Brother who is in Aviation getting totally irately defensive when I suggested that aeroplanes were having an effect on the world climate.
To me it is a world "class" issue. In a true free world economy, there is no real reason why I should earn 50 times as much as someone in China for doing the same job, and I think that in time they MUST get closer together. From a world perspective an ever increasing poverty gap is just not sustainable.
We are going to have to work damn hard and be really clever just to hold our own. Shopbots are good tools that can help us with that. As I said to a collegue last year, they are now at a price that we can think of them as tools, not major investments that we have to build our businesses around them. The Chinese are going to produce good cnc kit at amazing prices just as they have with regular wood machinery (whatever the label says). The downward price pressure from that will help us to compete and is just a part of the great big world price leveller.
And that is how it should be.

My 2p worth.
(this should be relabelled a Tea room topic).
PS: Brady, I work 12.5/5.75, and have NEVER had a 2 month holiday. (I had 1 month once, but that was in the middle of the Pacific)

R.

bobstand

12-12-2005, 11:19 AM

I would like to thank everyone who has replied to this thread. It sure has contributed to a global view of the complexities of daily life. Myself I do not exclude imports from the products I purchase. However, like Brady, I do not buy products that have been produced in countries with human rights problems. It is also my personal decision not to purchase from Wal Mart because (in my opinion) they exploit local governments, provide poor benefits for their employees, etc. It is a small vote against an injustice to humanity. It is my $$$ and I use it to cast my vote. In this country we know that boycotts work. We all know the Rosa Parks story. Buying globally and selling globally is not a bad thing. It is also a good thing to purchase in your own village. If we do not support our local neighbors and business, our back yards will look like most of the small towns across America with empty store fronts. I am old enough to remember how nice it was to go into the Hog Hollow Hardware or Mundorf Mercantile, etc. and find a plentiful supply of items to choose from. Yes the price may have been a little more but if I needed a left hand turn widget they had it. They also had someone there to help me get it off the shelf. It is not always about price. There are other issues that everyone can address with how they spend their money. This forum has been made possible by ShopBot with reinvestment of profits from selling tools. The jamboree each year is also paid with profits reinvested. We all benefit from supporting our local village. Shopbotters are a great global community of people who have pooled together to help each other. It is not a matter of selling each other our own personal views and politics. It is about helping each other. Thank you, Gerald for the “Where are You” map, and the “Hot Bot Forum”.
How about Mike John and his Free Doors program that works and is really free. The list could go on and on. We don’t have to look very far to find hundreds of ideas from ShopBotters who give back to their neighborhood. This thread maybe should have been called a tea room chat, but no matter what we call it, it is a good discussion. Thanks to all that have contributed. Happy Hollidays!............Bob

gerald_d

12-12-2005, 11:23 AM

I have no problem with folk taking pride in their country, but I do have a big problem with folk taking pride in the superiority of their country. Our's is best, everyhing else is trash....is what irritates me. That is a blind belief and dulls rational free thinking.

marshawk

12-12-2005, 12:04 PM

Aww Gerald, quit trying to pick a fight. ;-)

I think that everyone should think that their country is superior, whether they are Americans, English, Chinese or South Africans. If they don't, they should be working vigorously to make it so. Will they, or we, ever succeed? We may never know. However, if we don't try our hardest, we WILL never know.

hespj

12-12-2005, 12:34 PM

Gerald, what other way is there to be proud? "I'm proud that my country's mediocre"?

hespj

12-12-2005, 01:00 PM

By the way, I think it was me who admitted buying Chinese goods. I'll just put the record straight about my buying habits. Over the past 15 years I don't think we've bought any Nestle products or Esso petrol, and a whole host of lesser products are on our boycott list. We buy from the local grocery store whenever we can rather than WalMart or equivelent, and get a supply of vegetables delivered from local farmers, I buy wood locally for fuel for the house etc etc

What about buying Chinese then? Is it a cased of "I just couldn't resist because it's so cheap?" Partly. The enormous drop in the price of computer equipment due to Chinese manufacture has enabled me to invest in equipment which has made me a more valuable person, which has led to more hours worked at a higher rate per hour. I just wouldn't have bought the stuff if it had cost twice as much.

This increase, and a strong £, gave me the cash to buy a ShopBot. There are many in Europe who boycott the USA because of Bush, but I ignored that and went ahead. Now I've got considerable CAD and CAM potential and am probably earning twice what I did 5 years ago, and I plan to increase this, the ShopBotting's hardly started. Much of this money goes into my local economy.

So has me spending a couple of thousand dollars on goods made in China been good or bad for the UK. I think in a very small way "good". And I think spending several thousand dollars on a ShopBot made in the USA is good for my country.

Also I ask again, whose making the profit on a Dell monitor made in China. I'm sure Dell isn't doing this for fun. Of course some Dell shareholders might be Chinese............

gerald_d

12-12-2005, 01:02 PM

John, I think that one shouldn't consider the whole country as a collective and make a general sweeping statement/judgement on it. Seek out the individual aspects that you would be happy to identify yourself with - like your comment the other day about the (sports) car being built near where you live. That conveyed healthy pride to me.

It also shows that you think freely enough to recognise aspects of your society of which you are not proud, and by implication, will apply your mind to improving them.

mikejohn

12-12-2005, 01:56 PM

Bob,
I wish I could claim the free doors program as mine, because I think its great.
It's actually Mike Richards. I know we both (almost) use first names as surnames.

As for the rest!
There is no simple answer. Being British, can I boast about the first (Babbage) computer, penicillin, the hovercraft, the Jet engine, the steam engine, the telephone,TV, Caxton, Faraday, and the Mother of Parliaments, and conveniently ignore what Britain did in India, or the first concentration camps, or to be the last to abolish slave trading to the Americas?
It is said Britain is one of the most tollerant of societies, but it still has its problems.
I feel that if this thread follows a course of suggesting any nation is the greatest, or is never wrong, or holds any moral high ground, then tempers may well get frayed, things may be said that are better not said, and the great friendliness of this forum may be damaged.
I stated above that my original point was to make us all aware of a different market place that wasn't there even quite recently.
The scale and type of goods that are flooding all of our countries is destroying industries.
We can, for our own peace of mind, try not to be part of it.
But it isn't going away, and we need to accept this and try and succede in spite of it.
A personal plea, lets drop the flag waving and stay friends

I do,however, retain my right to keep pointing out to Gerald and the Aussies when there cricket and rugby teams are less than successful, and pointing out Chips unreasonableness to his long suffering brother.

.....................Mike

marshawk

12-12-2005, 02:32 PM

Telephone...British?

Gene...Long Suffering?

I think some unreliables have been editing the Wikipedia...

gerald_d

12-12-2005, 02:36 PM

Chip, he calls two tin cans and a piece of string a telephone - it is still state of the art over there.

bobstand

12-12-2005, 03:06 PM

Mike John, thanks for pointing out my error. Your right, I ment to say Mike Richards for providing Free Doors. I should also add Bruce Clark who also added to the program. The point is there are a lot of people helping others in this group. I don't read that as saying they are better than anyone else.

marshawk

12-12-2005, 04:02 PM

MY tin can has Auto-Redial!

jhicks

12-12-2005, 09:32 PM

BRADY ASKS "WHAT WOULD IT LOOK LIKE?".

One could think of 200 or 300 botters as an entire virtual/global factory in terms of available capacity to set the stage.
Thats one heck of a factory and a whole bunch of talent and somewhat idle capacity. What could one do with that?

Nothing without organization BUT if a "fabricating, buying and/or selling group" was organized we could say something like. "The collective group of botters spend X$ per year on bits Mr Onsrud or Y on HDU, paint, trupan, color core etc, etc. Would you like to gain a larger piece of that? Then we need all our registered members to know they can buy from you or your distributors at 35% under list price as one of our "preferred suppliers". Or we need 2 or 3 regional distributors Mr Color Core to stock full and pre cut sheets of color core around the USA or Europe etc.
Thermwood seems to be able to do it with hardware.

Extend that thought to selling.
We just might have the "Worlds largest available CNC capacity"
Could we all get the same results if we all ran the same program to provide regionalized supply chain? If we tried we could. Lots of OEMs are trying to maximize their supply chains but the folks they buy from don't have factories definately don't have 300+ flexible fabrication sites around the globe!

Web Page advertising. Much like Gerald's location and Hot Bot work but one with a top internet listing on search engines. BUT just for Bot members who choose to become a part of such a consortium for advertising whatever their specialized niche's are as a communal effort.
A larger than life image if you will.
What if I could sell what I don't make but actually have confidence I could deliver from someone IN THE NETWORK that I trust?

Buying groups are a part of industry to leverage and serve the smaller independants with business tools commonly used every day.
The piece of the puzzle thats missing is ORGANIZATION.
WOULD THAT HELP SELL MORE BOTS? I think YES.
Isn't the forum a virtual design review committee? A software consulting network? A traning and new idea brain trust? A virtual board of experts, marketeers, engineers, consultants, and capable opportunists?
I can't help but wonder if IBM or MicroSoft wouldnt be interested in helping that network.

Bot on Boys!

bleeth

12-12-2005, 11:04 PM

One should have pride in their own country for it's excellence, and also recognition for the excellence in others along with the appropriate humbleness for the good fortune in your life. It is also not necessarily a good thing to equate the shortcomings of current leadership of a country with shortcomings of it's people. Even Democracies can end up with leaders it regrets. Remember that in any country that is taken over forcefully the first things repressed are media and unions. When the leadership, whether of a nation, a corporation, or any other entity, becomes too powerful history teaches us that they will probably end up misusing that power before their demise. That does not mean that a powerful entity is and of itself completely evil. As anyone who has travelled and worked in different parts of our small Earth can tell you, on a person to person basis there is no difference between the concerns of a family in the USA, England, China, South Africa, or Myanmar. The exploitation of the poor by the rich has been a constant since the invention of money as a symbol to replace stored goods and will likely continue until we as a species have evolved far beyond our current state. Until then as power continues to shift from one part of the world to another in it's ongoing cycle it is natural for those in power to feel superior and those losing power to feel anger at the rising tide. But like the undeniable urge to take by force what you may covet it is up to you as thinking individuals to repress those feelings which, when allowed to grow unchecked, result in thoughtless jingoism and ultimately more war and the deaths of more children.

gerald_d

12-13-2005, 12:07 AM

Well said Dave.

mikejohn

12-13-2005, 12:23 AM

A pioneer in the field of telecommunications, Alexander Graham Bell was born in 1847 in Edinburgh, Scotland.

I guess I stll have a lot of educating to do!!

Dave,
My sentiments exactly.

...................Mike

gerald_d

12-13-2005, 12:34 AM

But Mike, isn't your country England? Useful to have the Scots as honorary English isn't it?

(Like the Canadians being honorary USAmericans and in the bad old days when Orientals were regarded as honorary whites in South Africa)

marshawk

12-13-2005, 07:25 AM

Argue semantics all you want... The "Bell" rand here first.

Chip (Who is VERY happy with the current leadership)

steve4460

12-13-2005, 08:34 AM

Hi guys

I have been following this for a while , and I must say there is several good ideas .
I like the one from Jerry , and I qoute .

"Nothing without organization BUT if a "fabricating, buying and/or selling group" was organized we could say something like. "The collective group of botters spend X$ per year on bits Mr Onsrud or Y on HDU, paint, trupan, color core etc, etc. Would you like to gain a larger piece of that? Then we need all our registered members to know they can buy from you or your distributors at 35% under list price as one of our "preferred suppliers". Or we need 2 or 3 regional distributors Mr Color Core to stock full and pre cut sheets of color core around the USA or Europe etc. "

I am always in the market for a good deal .
So my question is . How can wee do this ?. Who is going to take the lead on figuring this one out ?.