Do "designers" ever learn geometry? RANT

[carlcnc]

So this designer sells a project with about 300 letters to be cast [embedded]in concrete, caps are 2 " tall,makes an -e- about 1",
her specs call for 1/2" depth with a 45 bevel!
I told her not doable, she says
" yes it is I 've done it before, and it works "

I say , OK, but first could you tell me how to pour 1 gal of water into a teacup???
she didn't get it!
thanks for listening
Carl
ps: and she needs them today!

[cabnet636]

and probably wants a discount!!

jim

[joe]

Carl,

One of my largest services is to the concrete industry by reverse cutting letters with a V bits. I've posted earlier on the topic so i won't go over it again

I often use a 30degree and pawn them off as a 45. Even I can be fooled with this. For the most part they don't really care, as long as the letters pop out of the mold.

This is an excellent business for CNC owners. We charge a heavy lick. We invoiced out over $4K last week for reverse V carved extira letters.

I'd be happy to give you costs and techniques if you like. Perhaps you could call.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[carlcnc]

Joe
thanks for the offer ,even with a 30 this text is too small to be 1/2 thick. finally covinced her of that with a sketch,and a short math lesson
talked them into 3mm sintra 1/16 bit then they balked at estimate of 800 for over 300 letters, but of course they need em tomorrow by noon.
I suggested HD,or maybe IKEA would have it for at least 75% less. , I bet she called as soon as we hung up!
[remember Justins grumpy old cabinet maker reference? gotta add sarcastic ]
I don't mind difficult,challenging, but really bristle
at impossible, NOW, and cheap.

[gene]

Carl
Why dont you let her pick 2 out of three
1= good
2= fast
3= cheap
LOL

[myxpykalix]

"You can have it done fast, or you can have it done right, but you can't have both.....what's your choice?"

[coolhammerman]

Joe C:
I've admired your sign work for several years now. I would love to hear more about how you serve the concrete community. I live in northeast Atlanta and am thinking that might be a viable side business line for me. Work involves travel seasonally Thursday through Sunday so I'm always looking for stuff Mon-Wed. This might be a good fit. Please tell us more.
Ronco

[robtown]

Don't get me started on "air hooks"...

Me to designer:
"how is that going to suspend there with no visible hardware?"
Designer to me:
"I don't know, but visible hardware won't do..."

Cut to later... me slamming my head against brick wall for working with designer...

I kid... I love designers...

[wberminio]

I have dealt with designers and architects for years.
They could be your "enemy"(we all have horror stories),But they can also be our very very best friend.
They get the paying clients and deal with them,allowing us to do our work.The good ones will ask for advice and respect us for our experience;they less than good ones,think they know it all.The real trick is to make the changes,while they think it's their idea.

What I would really like is help them understand what we can do for them(and by extension their paying clients).

I had posted in the past about sponsoring a Camp for designers and architects.It could be a way to
show them what we can do for them.Expanding their knowledge of the capabilities of our Shopbots could only help us !

Any thoughts

Erminio

[billp]

Erminio,
This could be a case of "too many cooks" spoiling the banquet... I think a better approach would be for individual 'Botters to arrange a "showcase" of what THEY can do, have done, and are willing to try for a group of designers that would be potential agents for them.
In a Camp setting there are always a lot of approaches shown to solve similar job issues, and this COULD be confusing to someone with limited, or no, CNC experience/knowledge.
Of course if you have some owners who collaborate on projects, and would benefit from some sort of joint venture (one has more computer chops, another has a better spray booth, etc.) then maybe a "team" presentation would make sense.
And another approach altogether would be to invite a designer or two to a regular Camp so they can get a general idea of what goes on between the design concept, and the last coat of lacquer. This might help to show them just how many steps are really involved in any given process.....

[wberminio]

thanks for the insite Bill.
I'm just trying to expand to find future work

Erminio

[pappybaynes]

Joe,
Can you point me to the thread you mentioned about reverse cutting letters and the concrete forms?
Thanks,
Dick

[ron brown]

One of the things one should learn is how ignorant they are. This is the one true vale of a real education. I had a few years of true engineering and real life vector algebra experience before I re-entered school. Trust me, the Doctor/Professor/HFIC doesn't want or expect the student to adjust their answer for real world problems/answers. They don't like being shown they are wrong either. These procedures are not conducive to high GPAs.

A real professional, on the other hand, knows the tradesman and craftsmen who build the projects and build to a standard that may or may not be one shown on a set of plans. They also understand the notation of tight required tolerances are expensive .... even if their draftsman failed to 'cut some slack' on a decorative embellishment.

To an extent, 'CNC Machining' is its' own worse enemy. I've seen owners of plasma cutters tell clients to they could 'cut within 10 thousands' of a pattern. The same person can't tell you about the width of the kerf at a specified Amperage cut.

Few machining wood know the actual cutting diameter of any particular bit or the deflection of the machine at a particular load. They too exaggerate the accuracy they can cut. Many don't know or care how 'square' their machine actually is. This happens on the $3000 'HobbyBuddy', a $20,000 servo-feedback machine or a $150,000 "Phallic Masterpiece with auto tool-changer".

When one is explaining what they can do to a client like an architect, they need emphasize the 'can do' of the more simple machine and how the small shop can be more cost efficient than the expensive machine that HAS to be machining wood just to pay for itself (not that we don't expect our machines to pay for themselves but the date is not as expensive as Mr. Auto Tool-changer and his gang).

As Erminio suggested, get the client to understand how he can engage, modify the design and end up with a better or affordable project. I once got a very good client by showing them WHY their "seven shades of purple" went to three as the lights were dimmed. I got a good bit of high paying plan review for a few years. In My Opinion my client got better results for their 'designing dollar' by not spending money for fine details stuck in a dark corner 25 foot in the air.

I've found a few magnetic letters of various sizes is a good tool to sell a larger signs. Once the 'concept' is semi-firm and the client wants too many things on the sign (typically), I show them how hard the sign is going to be to read at practical distances. Showing a customer YOU know the effect of the graphic can be a good selling tool. Of course, it they really want that expensive embellishment .... I will usually let a client have it! After all, I do have bills to pay and a machine that seems to eat bits.

Ron

Ron

[joe]

Dick,

Yikes!

I've posted so many articles over the years, I wouldn't know where to start.

Let me do a quickey recap.

I use only Extira 1/2", 5/8" and 3"4"
All letters cut backwards.
Most letters cut with 30 & 45 Degree bits from Woodline.
Most letters are cut down at .25" increments.
14000 at .1 ips.
Vortex cooler on all 3/4" letter
Two tabs on all letters, sometimes three
Clean up on 1" Delta Belt with tilt table
Inside letter clean up with oscilating tilt table sander.
Sand front and back of letters before removing from sheet with Bosch oscilating hand sander.
Charge out 18" letters $33.75 each
Charge out 12" letters $28.50 each.
Charge out 6" and below at $22.25 each
Minimum $285.00

The way I started this kind of business was to make a whole bunch of letters, signed the backs, and gave them to my prospective clients. I asked each of them to drop one of the letters in a bucket of water overnight.

You should know in about a week if there is an interest. Do Not price letters without an order. A suggested price of $18.00 to $35.00 is close enough until they have an order to price from.
A quick turn around is essential.


8752
8753


8754



Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[joe]

O, I fogot:

My bread and butter work was entrance signs for Housing Additions and Developments. Then, overnight, I started to see concrete sign installed where my sign should go. The concrete was more perminent and sold for lots less. I was loosing the battle. My sales to developers was shrinking. After about I year, I figured out, the concrete companies were getting their letters from somewhere. And why not me? They had been having them cut from MDO or other substrates on bandsaws and the cuts needed lots of sanding and filling and took a long time to clean up. Also they didn't have the right side bevels. I knew my CNC could do a better job and much faster. So I went to work making tests. It took lots of experimentaion to get it just right. I went after it just like a modern day Frankenstein.

While experimenting, I came across Extira. Water resistant, sanded like a dream and was cheap. The down side was the weight. Every thing has it's down side.

Once I was pleased with my products, I visited each concrete company, un-announced, with a box of letters. All signed with my name. I got contact names and called them letting them know of my delivery. In about a week or two, I was back again with another batch of letters. Both Big and small letters in several type faces. I was rolling the dice big time. All the time asking myself, What in the heck do you think your doing? You gotta be an idiot giving all those samples away!

Then it started to pay off. Once these companies started using the product there was no turning back. They were hooked because they could get near perfect letters in a couple of days. Money wasn't much of an issue as time went along. The big question was "Whe can you have them done?"

So there you go. There may or maynot be a market in your area. You should check it out!

Joe crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[carlcnc]

Joe
so how do yu do the 1/2" [height]letters??
just kidding
CArl

[pappybaynes]

Thanks Joe...time to experiment!!
Dick

[nomi]

Excuse my ignorance here, but I'm not sure what the concrete companies are doing with the letters.

Could someone be so kind as to fill me in? (Pun intended)

Thanks!

- Noel

[jnbish]

No No dont tell him!

[coolhammerman]

This thread intrigues me. I have been asked to make a replacement sign for my Son's subdivision here in Georgia. All of the masonry is in place. Letters were 1/4" plastic covered with gold plated aluminum approx 12" high for caps and 8" lower case. Kids vandalized the sign and stole the letters with their initials. Probably should insert that I have no experience with out door signs of any size so this is all new to me.


They want something about 3'x5' and have kicked around v carving something with a logo etc. I don't know anything about sign foam. May be I should consider that.

I was thinking if there were some light weight concrete product available, maybe I could just make a male mold with the logo, an oak tree, the name of the subdivision and cast it about 3 inches thick. They could use a concrete stain for color and attach it to the existing brick structure with bolts. It would not be prone to vandals and would look pretty nice. What do you think? How would you do it? I'm open to suggestions. By the way. . .pro bono except for materials.
Ronco