About cabinets!!

[dray]

Well I refuse to pay the extortion to KCDW. Its good software but a rip off.

There is a ton out there but seemingly none that will work for me.

I dont do kitchens, I do large custom builtins.
I bought cabinet parts pro but found out today its just easier for me to draw the boxes in insignia.

Ive looked and tried everything but nothing works the way I need it to.

I was looking at flexcabs or what ever the name is but Im 100% sure its vaporware or just another cabinet parts pro.

I need a cabinet software that will do this:

1:any height wall cabinets
2. alow adjustable shelves anywhere on the cainet, not whole cabinet but like 3" up from bottom or 60" from top etc
3.I want to be able to split the 1 big wall cabinet into 3 parts with fixed/dado shelves (where I want)
4 fixed shelves need to be adjustable width to add shelf edging
5 Seperate toe kick (otherwise we can never stand the cabinet up in house)
6 option for radiused head valances for top of cabs
7 MDF door prog added in
8 fluted pilaster all adjustable added in (how many flutes, how wide will the piece be, how far from top to start flutes, how far from bottom)
9 easy extra part generator
10 a simple preview

There are a ton of talented programmers out there I am basically trying to mimmick the workings of kcdw without a cool 3d rendering.

I am stubborn as a mule and Ill tell 1,000,000 people not to buy kcdw before Ill pay the $15k extortion for it.

I would rather pay someone $15k to make me a prog with all the capabilities above.

As it is now I use my Cabinet parts pro for just a box and fixed shelves. then I use insignia for radiused heads or special parts. then free doors for my doors and there are constant mistakes because some take into accunt milling along vector but counting in the thickness of the bit. some machine from top down, some from table up.

I get the cabinets done but Its a real bummer that everyone out there keeps creating the same dumb cabinet package.

Im not much into coding but if any of you out there made a system that was flexible with these features, could save standards would make a fortune. As long as you sold it at a fair price EVERY CABINET MAKER IN THE WORLD would use it.

I just got e cabinets in the mail, Ill try that tomorrow. If theres a way around all this junk Ill find it lol or have someone make it.

Please all of you out there post back with some info. Anyone out there daily making custom cabinetry and not using KCDW?
9

[bruce_clark]

Danny,

Where to start...OK, let start here.

First off, you are not really making cabinets, but more LARGE entertainment centers. Sure, they have cabinets IN them, but they are really furniture. I think you are doing an awesome job, but by all means, they are not something that EVERY cabinet maker in America (or the world) is going to build.

Second. Yes, there are tons of talented programmers out there. Unfortunately, they are all earning $60K+. More if they are any good. That works out to about $35 an hour. That gives your programmer only 2 months 2 weeks to have all your requirements done for $15K. That is unrealistic. Heck, that barely gets you a FreeDoors/doors plug-in done.

Third, the market for cabinet maker software is limited. How many CNC routers are out there (total, not just ShopBots). 200,000...maybe. Now, how many were purchased by cabinet makers? Maybe 5%. So, if you totally cornered the market you might get 10,000 sales. Yes, that is a lot, but compared to video games or Windows software, that is like a weeks worth of sales (maybe less!). Now, you see why they can sell a $5million dollar video game for $50. They will sell a million of them (maybe more). So, for the cabinet software company to make a similar profit on their investment, they have to charge a little more per copy. Don't forget, a lot more "help" and technical support is required for the cabinet software (or any specialized software) than a video game. That support cost something too, thus it is factored into the price of the program.

Fourth. I don't make cabinets, so I cannot say for sure that Cabinet Parts Pro is bad or does not work. I am pretty sure it is working for someone since a) it is still for sale b) ShopBot picked it up as a product. I know that ShopBot is pretty picky about what they sell, since they have to support it. Since their support is free, I am pretty sure that would not sell something that will cost them more money to support than what they make from the sale. So, where am I going with this? Well, I personally think it is the wrong software for what you are trying to do (see point #1). Now, to be fair, Ryan offered a trial/free version of his software so you could see if it would work for you before you purchased it. It just may be that Cabinet Parts Pro works in a different fashion that what you are accustom to.

Fifth. Brady and I had this discussion as few days (week) ago about Artcam. I feel that ArtCam is expensive, but I don't do 3D work for Profit. Brady does. So, to him, Artcam is a must have _tool_. He said he would buy it again if he lost it and I believe him.

You have also said that you paid for your ShopBot in just a few months of work. Well, if you bought KCDW, how long would it take for you to get your ROI? Does KCDW let you do things that you cannot currently do in Parts Wizard or any other software? It might minor things like optimal nesting that saves you money in material cost over the long haul. This feature alone might save you enought money to cover the $15K cost of entry. Or it might be something else. Maybe those fancy KCDW previews let you show your customer expensive upcharges that "make the sale" for you. It is amazing what customers want when they can "see" it.

Now, with all that, and you still want your own custom software, the cheapest thing is go down to the University of Irvine. Ask someone in the computer department if they know of a _GOOD_ starving programmer who would like to "intern" doing custom programming for DRay Construction. Pay him something over minimum wage ($7 or $8 an hour--it will beat working in fast food), give him a corner in your shop next to the ShopBot, your list of requirements and a frige full of Coca-Cola. You will be amazed at the talent you can find/get. This is any Junior+ level college (don't get Freshman and be VERY picky about any Sophmore) kids dream job. Just make sure that he understands that YOU own the code when he is done. Heck, you might even have him help do an install job, so that he can see where he might make some improvements to the program design that you did not have on your list.

If not, next time I am out in Costa Mesa, I will drop by with my notebook and we can go over some ideas--gota do the Orange County Swap Meet at least once a year.

Hope this is food for thought,

Bruce

[bleeth]

Danny: The type of commercial program you are seeking does exist, but I'm afraid you won't like the price or the development time to tailor it to your business. Two that I know of are Alphacam and Microvellum. Both of these programs are used extensively in both the "standard" cabinet business and "custom" shops. They work with Autocad (Meaning more "bucks") and allow you to custom design each standard product you make. So you can take a box, add columns to a side or not, designate fixed shelves or adjustable,put on a door or not, etc. You will get product lists for purchasing, and code for processing, as well as labels, etc. KCDW, like just about all the other cabinet software on the block including its partner, Cabinet Vision, is designed for kitchen type cabs and even though they have been touting their ability to do "custom" for years they don't do it very well. My own custom shop produced a lot of radius cabinets and entertainment centers and I was able to draw the parts I needed in Artcam easier than anything else I had! I also knew, that if I were producing enough of one "modified" version of entertainment unit components, then any program that allowed me to customize cabinets and then modify them parametrically would be worth the price. $15K is, after all, only 1 or 2 units.

By the way, if you already have autocad, you can download a Microvellum demo for free and they also have quite a few videos on their site.
Dave

[dray]

Thanks you guys.. You reminded me of this old guy I met on a job he was 80ish and nicest man in the world he belonged to Newport Country Club. Had numerous houses throughout Newport and filthy I mean filthy flarn filthy rich. ( we were remodeling some of his homes etc)

I was about 20 at the time I looked old Dick Menkin in the eye and said "Dick what the hell do you do for a living" he said " I sell retractable clotheslines"

I thought to myself what the heck? Everyone has a washer and dryer how the?

He knew just what I was thinking and said "Danny, you know just because you and I and most people in the general area have washer and dryers doesnt mean the rest of the world does".

Soo once again I'm grounded. Thanks for pointing out I'm not the center of the universe. I often think that because I am having a problem with certain thing that everyone else must be having the same issue.

I get caught up in life/work its nice to have little reminders like that.

[bruce_clark]

Danny,

I think he was "filthy flarn filthy rich" because he owned property throughout Newport!

That clotheslines things was just a sideline. ;)

Bruce

[henrik_o]

While not everyone might have the issue, you're quite far from alone, though.

It's not a big product for us, but we do one to two private libraries each year. We have worked hard to define a system in which we use simple cabinets as building blocks and have the flair and variation in design in the areas where the boxes are joined, both vertically and horizontally.

This works for us, but it is in a sense designing around the lack of a good and reasonably inexpensive cad/cam package that could easily produce truly custom designs.

I have looked at the higher end cabinet software, but can hardly justify the purchase for such a low volume product. If it grows to three or four installations a year, sure, but in the interim a highly customizable but relatively simple package would be a godsend.

[dray]

No. Old Dick Menkin Bought the properties with CASH because he owned the only patented retractable clothesline company in the country.

His properties werent rentals he gave them away to his multiple girlfriends at 80 years old haha.

Talk about a player =)

[myxpykalix]

Danny,
There is aguy on this forum who does beautiful media rooms (I wish i remembered his name) and he does many different types of cabinetry and wall applications. I'll go back and try to remember his name (unless he speaks up) and he may be the guy to talk to about how he makes his pieces which are not cookie cutter cabinets. Beautiful stuff.

[gwilson]

Jack,
I think you are talking about Frank Leinbach. Here is a link to hs profile http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/board-profile.cgi?action=view_profile&profile=fleinbach-users
And to his website http://www.theaterrooms.com/

Hope this helps
Gerald

[myxpykalix]

YEAH...thats him..HEY FRANKIEEE..this guy is a FREAKIN ARTEESTE!

[fleinbach]

Thanks Jack, I try

I sent Danny an email but basically I don't use any software dedicated to cabinets. I use Chief Architect for all my drawing and 3D rendering. I find it to be very easy and fast to create drawings and conceptual renderings, but I have been using it for over 10 years so that might help.

I then export to Insignia for making my cut files . I noticed on this forum many people talk about getting loops in there cad when opening in Insignia. I have never experienced this with things drawn in Chief. In fact the only time I ever experienced any loops was when trying to draw in Insignia. In my opinion Insignia is excellent for tool paths but terrible to make a drawing in. But I'm sure it most likely would work well enough if I wanted to take the time to learn to use it and had no other choice.

[paul60]

can anyone tell me the address of insignia
web site?

[garyb]

http://www.artcaminsignia.com/

[apotvin]

Hello Danny,


Afflicted for my English, this is a translation of Googel.


I am a programmer and owner of a PRT ALPHA 60x120. I machine melamine for manufacturers of cupboards, I machine between 1000 and 1500 sheets per month.


I work at present on a software which will do all that you require and even more.


This software will comprise several profile customers, for example a customer can assemble with groove, another with dowel etc


It is especially on the level of the way of cut that will be the great difference, is a sheet for example which contains 8 parts, will not be regarded any more as such, but rather as a single part this should make save 30% of the time of machining. The parts of small dimensions, will be gathered and could be cut either: in several pass, with tabulations, at a lower feed rate, without that affecting the remainder of the sheet.

A first english beta version should be available in November 2007, if you are interested I will be able to forward some to you a copy.


Alain

[lex]

If you are really serious about having a program designed for you use rentacoder.com. I have gone in a few times and have never been disappointed with the price or the results.

For instance I had a custom project management program made for me for $3,000. (code and manual included)

[dray]

Yes please send me a copy Alain!!!

[beacon14]

I have been thinking more about this issue and am running into a bottleneck that I can't be the only one having, and I can sense a solution but I'm not skilled enough in programming to create it.

Currently I draw all my jobs in DesignCad (substitute the name of your favorite CAD program here). Then I have to manually export separate .dxf files for each sheet, actually one file for the cutouts, one for the drilled holes, etc. - with my closet jobs there are as many as four .dxf files per sheet. Then in VCarvePro (which I love) I open a "template" job with the proper toolpaths already created, and for each sheet I import each file, grouping the vectors as I go, and then edit each toolpath using the recently imported groups to select the proper vectors for each toolpath (the grouping technique is my workaround for not having layers in VCP). Then I save the toolpaths, some of which use the router postprocessor and some the drillhead postprocessor. I then have to manually edit each .sbp file to fine tune them to the way I want them to run. (I think VCP or Part Wizard for that matter should allow US to determine the header and footer lines for the output files, but that's another rant.) It only takes a few minutes per sheet but for a large job it adds up to a lot of time spent and a lot of chances to make mistakes. I'm sure I'm not the only one who goes through this process or something just like it.

So what I'm getting at is that this whole process should be easy to automate. What I need is a Macro that will take my set of .dxf files (sheet1cutout.dxf, sheet1drill.dxf, etc.) and run them through VCP using pre-determined toolpaths to create the exact .sbp files I need: sheet1.sbp, sheet2.sbp. I don't need nesting since I can nest pretty effectively in DesignCad and I already own the program (VCP) that makes great toolpaths. I just want to automate the drudgery of going through the same keystrokes for 30 or 40 files and eliminate the chance of making a mistake.

It seems like for someone capable of making Freedoors this would be easy (not that I'm hinting or anything, just using that as an example). Is this the kind of thing I should list on rentacoder (which looks intriquing by the way - thanks for the link)? I'd be happy to pay hundreds but not thousands to someone who could do this and it's just a hunch but I'm guessing a least a few others who read this might also.

Am I making any sense?

[paco]

David,

VETRIC's post processor can be modified and customized... while PW cannot. Let us know what you'd like and we'll see what can be done. I think that by now it would be advisable to have post processor documentation available at demand from VETRIC... it is fairly easy to customize header and footer...

One thing that would be a nice future feature to VETRIC's products would toolpath templates which could be reused again. This can be mimic within a template file in which you program what you need then just bring your drawings into it and re save it under a specific name. A file containing the preset toolpaths for whatever purposes you want.

I thought you could use that until you have the "wizard" you're looking for...

[beacon14]

Paco, how does one go about modifying the postprocessor? For starters at the end of each file instead of a move to 0,0 I just want to add the shortcut command C4. (My standard end of file routine which turns off the router and parks it where I want it.) Also I'd like to be able to specify the variables which are used for the offsets in the drill head PP.

What you suggest with the toolpath templates is basically what I do. I save a .crv file which has the proper toolpaths but the vectors have been deleted. (VCP let's you do this but PW I don't think allows you to keep a toolpath and delete the vectors - I could be wrong - don't really use PW anymore). Then it's pretty quick to select a toolpath, click edit, select the vector(s), then click "calculate". (Unfortunately VCP then defaults to the 3D screen which I don't care about until I've re-calculated all my vectors, so I have to re-click the 2D screen for each toolpath to select its vectors.) Again, it goes pretty quick, but it's very repetitive since it's the exact same keystrokes for each file. That's the part I want to automate. Combine that with being able to tweak the PP and I'm in heaven.

[robredick]

I am a newbie to the ShopBot... But I have been designing for several years & making furniture (the old fashioned way) for longer than I would like to admit. I am one of the Betas for FlexCabs & I have to say that I like what I see (so far). It is going to take them a little time. But, if all goes well they, will be really hard to beat for the nesting (if nothing else). I design most things in Sketchup 6 (I'm a Mac guy),I have ArtCam Pro thanks to a company that I do work for (I can not pop for 7k) & I import everything from SU to nest there. Again, I am verrrrry new to the ShopBot, but it worked well for me to send out for someone else to make & it works even better now that I can sit & listen to my Porter Cable CRY as it slices through life.

[bcammack]

David,

The process you describe is not unlike the steps we take to digitize, refine, and program the functions of every kitchen or bathroom full of granite, Silestone, onyx, Elustra, etc. We have one person who does nothing but refine received templates to meet our standards (two big rolling tables with straightedges, utility knives, Sharpies, and a hot glue gun), another who does nothing but digitize these templates on a large flatbed digitizer and then transform the raw point list into raw DXF files, and three more who transform those raw DXF files into refined DWG files suitable for CAM programming and then program them. We use GibbsCAM for the CNC routers and ProNest for our FlowJet waterjet cutter.

I guess that what I'm trying to say is that a certain amount of the energy invested in having a CNC machine is always going to be involved it preparing the jobs for them. In our case, practically every job we do is "custom" from the perspective that while the cabinets have fairly standard dimensions, our product fills that intersection between those dimensions, the structure's dimensions, and the whims of the designer and homeowner.

For standard kitchen cabinetry, I suspect that it is quite possible to automate a considerable amount of the front-end part of the job of preparing for the run, but there will always be a fair amount. We are all obligated to become skillful and efficient in this process to take full advantage of the investment in the equipment.

Or you can do what we did: hire people who know what they're doing.

[paco]

quote:For starters at the end of each file instead of a move to 0,0 I just want to add the shortcut command C4. (My standard end of file routine which turns off the router and parks it where I want it.) Also I'd like to be able to specify the variables which are used for the offsets in the drill head PP.
Post processor (for the most) are edit with text editor. Once more (never enough) place a copy on the desktop until you know your mods work perfect. Since this is a modified version you want, you could save it under a different name and give it a different name in VCP so you still have access to the default.
At the start of the PP file, you'll notice a section where you can take notes of the changes


| Who When What
| ====== ========== ========================================
| Tony M 22/06/2005 Written
| Brian M 08/07/2005 Modified to output feed units correctly
| Brian M 14/07/2005 Modified to output 6 d.p
| PACO 15/08/05 Added router control for SB3 Alpha and
| router/spindle RPM dislay/prompt
| Tony 27/06/2006 Added NEW_SEGMENT section
| in case new tool has different
| feedrates to first tool
| Brian M 14/07/2006 Added circular arc support
| PACO 19/03/2007 Added SO,2 control
+-----------------------------------------------------------


write yours.

Just bellow that, there's a line


POST_NAME = "Shopbot (arcs)(inch)(alpha_control)(*.sbp)"


that that's the name in VCP PP drop down menu. You could name yours


POST_NAME = "Shopbot (arcs)(inch)(alpha_control C4)(*.sbp)"


Study the post content in NotePad. You're looking for the footer part (at the end)...


+---------------------------------------------
+ End of file
+---------------------------------------------

begin FOOTER

...


Notice that each PP line start with " and end with " too... don't forget or you'll get reminded. You probably want to replace what's there with


+---------------------------------------------
+ End of file
+---------------------------------------------

begin FOOTER

"C4"


assuming the C4 CC contain all you need and want... right?

That's it! Double check by previewing the toolpaths output and looking at the output code in a text editor. You won't be doing this each time but you want to make sure your PP mods are working as intended right?

Regarding the Drill variables, I believe this is related to the my_variable.sbc founded in SbParts/custom folders... I don't have a drill head myself so I'm not 100% sure what to look for right now... make sure you understand what you're doing and that you work on copy of the files you modify.

[beacon14]

Paco - you the man! I sure wish I had asked this question months ago. To think of all the time I've spent manually editing the .sbp files and all I had to do was tweak the postprocessor (which was easy once someone explained how). Paco I can't thank you enough.

I may have made my initial post more complicated sounding than I had to. I understand that there will always be work required to output usable files. I already do all the creative stuff in DesignCad. Once the parts are drawn and the sheets nested and I've exported .dxf files to bring into VCarve for toolpathing that's where the drudgery starts. I have to go through the exact same keystrokes for each .dxf file to create the necessary .sbp files. (I created the toolpaths once and just re-open the same file - I don't have to make any decisions about toolpathing as the toolpathing strategy does not change from sheet to sheet.) I just have to go through the motions for each .dxf file to create each sheet's .sbp file. So really what I am asking for is a macro function for VCarve Pro. I'm talking to a couple of folks off forum about it now and have my fingers crossed.

[paco]

Hey David!

Glad you like it!

Post processor tweaks and such; Bill Young has put together a bunch of utilities for various and specific tasks... you might want to have a look at 'em. PP mods are great for very repetitive tasks but sometime, you just want some control in between PP mods and manual editing.

About macros and special purposes programs; can be worth but I suggest to ask yourself; "would I replace myself with what I do with a very well trained monkey?" If not then a macro or a program may not be more thrust worthy than the monkey... still, it sound like worth considering and investigation. Keep us post on your findings.

Bot on!