Quick decision to buy

[zfisher]

I am a teacher at a high school in Pittsburgh, Pa and I have been searching for various CNC routers to incorporate into my Automation curriculum. My superintendent came to me today and said we have 15,000$ in a technology fund left if your ready to order your CNC plan to have your specs ready for Monday. Luckily I spoke with a a ShopBot Rep months before. The machine I am putting in for is the PRS Standard 48-48-6 w/z zero, 2.2hp Alpha spindle and router bit starter kit.
I am posting to see if there are any other items I would possibly need, or members would recommend to get this thing up and running over summer. I have used a Techno CNC before but the ShopBot looks and seems completely different.

Will I need to purchase a bit to make the spoiler board or is it included in the router bit kit?

Is this setup good or should I opt for a different model to save some money with hopes to buy the 4th axis index?

Any information or recommendations would be appreciated.

Thanks

[myxpykalix]

If it were me, i would opt for a fullsize table 48x96 because if you are using it for a shop class there will undoubtably be many types of projects you will want to be able to do and you will limit yourself by getting a smaller table.

People swear by spindles, i've never had one but the difference in price allowed me to spend more money on my table and the indexer option that i wouldn't have been able to do if i had gotten a spindle.

My feeling is that with students if they mess up a router, at most its a $300.00 replacement, with a spindle there is more care you need to take, warm up, maintainance and i just think the chance of the shopbot being inoperable due to problems because the students didn't maintain it properly are greater then with a router.

By opting for a router you could get an indexer which would open up far more creative avenues for the students.

I would check out the specific bits you get in the starter kit and do some comparision shopping. I think you could get a better deal.

As far as your surfaceplaning bit is concerned for your spoiler board, here is what i use:

http://magnate.net/index.cfm?event=showProductGroup&theID=136

[gc3]

PRS 4896 with PC router...spindle is nice but save $ and opt for a router cause you are gonna spend a lotta $$$ on bits with students


Gene Crain
www.plantasymaderas.com (http://www.plantasymaderas.com)

[bcondon]

Because these kids are the future for Shopbot, maybe Ted can help you out to get to that 4x8 size bed for that 4x4 price? These kids, in the future, are going to be active on the forum and teach some of us some cool tricks that we have not thought of yet.

Ted PLEASE?

[jim_ludi]

Lucky students!

The router bit kit has a surfacing bit to mill the spoil board.

You'll need extra bits for commonly used sizes and types. You might look at Centurion prices. Perhaps they have an educator discount?

And, you're going to need extra collets. Collets are expendible items, especially with students, so you'll want extras to lock up in your desk, at least for the most commonly used sizes, and a good plan to teach your students proper use and maintenance practices for them.

How about upgrading to Vectric Aspire? Aspire is a great 3D modeling program for those skulls and guitars that your students will want to make


Do you have a computer that you can dedicate to the bot? How about a seperate computer for them to do design work on?

Clamps to hold projects to the table. For projects that will allow their use, I like to use clamps like the Quick Grip type with plastic jaws - for obvious reasons.

BTW, ShopBot's a great choice for your bot! It's a great machine and a great company to partner with. And, this forum should prove really helpful for all those questions that your about to be deluged with.

[david_white]

Go with the spindle.I cant imagine how loud the router would be in an enclosed class room.The whole school will hear that PC router run.

[zfisher]

Thank you all for the info and hopefully more to come!!
I was going to go with the spindle because only safety glass and my classroom will separate us. Judging from the porter cable router on a Techno in the wood shop next door (through 10" block). I though it would be a good idea to use a spindle so I can lecture without yelling, but if it is going to save me 2,000$ to purchase an index I might just deal with it. Also I was told in order to use a Shop Bot index you have to have a 4x8 table because half of the table is designated for that index. Again not sure?? Our program has multiple licenses for Artcam Pro and Jewelsmith so students can design project outside the lab, and I do have a computer I can designate for the shop bot software and CNC. I have sent an email to Magnate to see if they can put together some kind of starter bundle for $200.00.

Another pondering situation I have thought about is the hold down system. I have spoken to teachers that swear by cam lock hold downs for machining, and others that use a vacuum to hold down material. Any info or feedback on either of these? What cam locks do you use? Where did you order them from?
Vacuum?...I think I can get a Fein shop-vac from an prior student who is a sales rep, for a reasonable price to build my own hold down.


So much research to do in such a short amount of time. I hate to rush but I don't want to pass this opportunity up on getting an AWESOME machine for my students. Basically if someone where to give you 15k how would you spend it through Shop Bot?

Thanks Again to All!!!

[zfisher]

In response to Bob Condon's post........

(Because these kids are the future for Shopbot, maybe Ted can help you out to get to that 4x8 size bed for that 4x4 price? These kids, in the future, are going to be active on the forum and teach some of us some cool tricks that we have not thought of yet. Ted PLEASE?)....

Getting a 4x8 for a good deal would defiantly help us out!! I have been dealing with Dianne Reynolds at Shop Bot about acquiring this machine....If it matters.

[shoeshine]

If noise is a killer in your space, so be it. But I agree on the fact that routers and spindles are ultimatly consumables. They wear out and require replacing. Even more so in a student environment. The price difference is huge.

my immediate take on what I would pick given enough space, would be to opt for the 48x96 PRS standard with PC router and 6" indexer. that will set you back 14,655 acording to shopbot's site (that is assuming you can avoid sales tax as an educational institution)

You will only save 1300 getting the smaller table and unless space is the issue, you will want the larger table for something soon.

it is a minor savings, but I would agree on the starter bit set for student use. they are high quality onsrud bits, but you can use far cheaper bits with negligble loss of qulity for student work and you will go through a lot of them. You might still want to order the set for your research/use, but also consider getting multiples of other cheaper bits for student use. they WILL break.

I dont know if that 15k is your total budget or not but there are also other considerations that may or may not come into play. you need dust collection, obviously a coumpter dedicated to the bot, and in a year of running my machine I have probably spent at least 500 or so getting bits outside the starter set for various special projects. I dont use vaccum, but I do have probably another 500 invested in jigs, clamps, T-track, etc.. I find that you have to be creative as hold down is dependent on the project at hand.

I would also echo the encouragement to talk to the folk in Durham to see if they can cut you an educational discount.

anyway just my $.02
Chris

[myxpykalix]

regarding indexers size and placement go to the indexer posts and you will see indexers mounted in the X and Y. If you get the larger table you will be able to mount it in the X and make 8' columns (or close to it). It doesn't take up half the table.

With students, to begin with, i wouldn't depend on vacumn hold downs. I would start with mechanical holddowns.
Centuriontools has a starter bit set.

[shoeshine]

I should also throw in that, regardless of the configuration you choose, you will not regret opting for a shopbot.

The software integration, ease of use, customer support, and yes, this forum, are all great features that led me to choose shopbot over any other solution even remotely in this price range. (I did near a year of research before pulling the trigger)

[mitch_prest]

another thing to think about when deciding router or spindle is the warm up time. It is unlikely your students are going to want to do the warm up and cool down procedure needed to get the spindle bearing to last...

[jim_ludi]

About the cam clamps, I got mine from David Buchsbaum. They work well. Here's a link to the cam information:

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/15719/36169.html?1227581279

[shoeshine]

hmmn just thinking out loud here, but a plotter pen from widgetworks might be a great $40 investment. show your class how the bot moves without having the router/spindle turned on.

[rb99]

Get a used one for $8000?

RIB

[mitchjr]

Zach...Zach...Zach........

First it is nice to hear that Craig is going to crack open the wallet and allow you to finally spend some money.

#1 I think when you were up at my school looking at my bot, you were saying that you could only fit a 48 x 48 machine. This being the reason for not even considering the larger model....If this in not the case, I would indeed go with the larger bot.

#2 The router is loud and annoying. I am lucky that i have the back room where I can shut the door and still run a class in the front room. However, We did budget for the spindle for next year because my ears are getting old and according to my boss. by law, we are not permitted to wear hearing protection in case of an emergency that would occur in the lab with the students.

#3 The indexer ??? This is not a very useful tool at all and you would be wasting the money!!!

#4 Tooling......I now get my tooling from Burchett. Their tapered ballnose bits are about $26 each. They are 3 flute, sharp as hell and are like the energizer bunny. They keep going and going. Plus he gives a 10% discount to schools. This way you can order what you want and need. I think you already have a good supply to start with anyway. Call me on this one.

#5 Wait one second. Did you say Indexer??? Without a doubt you MUST get the indexer.....This has opened up so many new roads for our classes. This tool will make you and the students think, but once you do a few, it is really easy. I know you have the Model Master and this indexer will work a little different. It is the same thinking, but the process is much different in some cases. The post processor does not INDEX. and you will need to manually move the B axis with the K command to degree you want. Maybe Ted will work on a new post for that. I would order extra angle braces and angle iron brackets from SB to mount the indexer as I did mine. It looks neat and the color matches the table. Not a big deal to most shops, but you know how it is when the administration starts walking around the school. DO NOT PASS ON THE INDEXER AT THIS TIME. YOU WILL BE SORRY.

#6 vacuum table....well you saw mine. Works great and allows me to use the clamps as well. Best of both worlds. I still have the files to cut the pattern and if needed I will dig them out for you.

#7 Software...well you know how much I like ArtCam and you saw the things we can do with it. We have JewlSmith 2009, Mastercam, Solidworks and Aspire 2.5x. I would strongly advise you to contact Tony or Brian at vectric.com. I am finding my students and myself using Aspire more than any other software. Aspire is very very powerful and it will make using the indexer a little less stressful........ok maybe a lot less stressful.

Finally....could you please tell Diane that FC did the demo of our machine for you. Our school will get a little kick for some new tools.

[mitchjr]

One more thing.....

Do not get a used machine. There are many good used machines out there, but If something does go wrong, You know how the administration will feel. No money to fix, no warranty equals no machine working in the lab.

[jim_ludi]

More thoughts,

Chris mentioned the plotter pen, which brings up the idea of using the bot for graphic arts and design which greatly expands its utility in an educational environmet. An example of an artist using a ShopBot to expand his creative possibilities can be found at http://mlyon.com/. Mike's very creative and productive. So, basically, I agree with Chris - get some pens. And, if you think you might want to add gadgets to the bot that need to be controlled by the software you'll want to get a ShopBot relay board (call ShopBot for price - very reasonable for functionality added) like Mike Lyon uses - see his add on gadgets. BTW, you can find the pens and refills at http://www.widgetworksunlimited.com/CNC_Specialty_Bits_s/33.htm ($39.95).

A ShopBot digitizing probe is essential for copying 2D and 3D objects. At some point, someone will want to copy an object and you'll need the probe. And, yes, it can be used to copy guitar bodies, etc.. http://shopbottools.com/accessories.htm ($395).
ShopBot says:
"Make a copy of an object in 3D with our digital touch probe. Attaches in place of your router bit in the router collet. Place the object you want to copy on the ShopBot table and run the Copy Machine tool in the ShopBot Control Software. You can duplicate an existing 3D shape or a piece of decorative trim or molding. Very useful for luthiers, furniture makers and restoration work. The Digitizing Probe provides a way to create 3D files without the complexity of using 3D software because it can directly generate a ShopBot Part File as it probes. Alternatively, you can generate 3D files for import into 3D software, which can then be modified or enhanced. The Digitizing Probe can also be used to trace the outline of the edges of a flat part in order to produce a 2D file for cutting out copies of the part."

I would also get a laser center finder and an edge/corner/zero finder:
The laser center finder will allow you to position/reposition the machine home position accurately anywhere on the table. I have even used it to reposition a start point when the bot lost its position. This is basically a laser pointer that chucks into the spindle collet. I got mine from Little Machine Shop: http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2604 ($85). I also purchased their collet adapter and polarizing filter. The stepped collet adapter lets you use the laser in different sized spindle collets ($17.50). The polarizer focuses the beam and makes it more visable ($19.95). And, they even have a magnetic holder for the laser ($15.95). The pointer will also work with your drill press or mill.

A automated edge/zero finder can be purchased from Morris Dovey (DeSoto Solar): http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/SuperZero/ ($250). If you look at the pictures you can see that the plate and associated hardware find an exact corner and zero for your material, or you can add a cross-hair reticule to find a center. This can be very useful when a project has to be pulled from a table and then re-centered/zeroed which could happen to student projects - say a project is affixed to a planten/fixture that needs to be removed, for whatever reason, then re-registered. You can find a forum discussion about this tool at http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/27/23753.html?1196399983

If you want to do vinyl signs you will want to consider a drag knife from WidgetWorks http://www.widgetworksunlimited.com/CNC_Specialty_Bits_s/33.htm ($150).

For metal/glass/etc. engraving with a diamond stylus WidgetWorks http://www.widgetworksunlimited.com/CNC_Specialty_Bits_s/33.htm ($179.99).

You, read students, will need accurate/durable vernier calipers. I use a digital readout type that can convert to and from inches, millimeters and fractions. Again, Wixey has a reasonable priced tool for $38.99 http://www.wixey.com/calipers/index.html. Obviously, Starrett would be better.

And, finally (whew), I find a Wixey angle gauge is very useful for setup uses. http://www.wixey.com/anglegauge/index.html ($39.99). For instance, getting the spindle plumb to the table...

[jporter]

You can run the PC router at lower RPM to cut the noise some. I wear the little foam ear plugs and they help a lot. I bought my PC at Rockler. They sell the motor unit only and I think it was about $200. Having said this, I would love to have a spindle, but some of the points made about warm up and cool down and rough useage make a lot of sense, and you can pay for the Indexer for the difference. Just some thoughts, joe

[rb99]

You will probably want to have a spare Porter Cable router on the shelf.

RIB

[scottcox]

Mitch, Mitch, Mitch,

You had me worried with #3. :-)

Zach,

I chose to buy ShopBot because of this forum and the indexer and have never, ever regretted it. The indexer is an incredible tool capable of many things that you just can't do on a 3 axis machine.

Go for it! I did and haven't looked back. Now I'm making some rather cool "round" stuff as well.

[myxpykalix]

And my original indexer "mentor" was Scott Cox. Without his help and table design I would not have been able to do some of the things i wanted to do, So Zach, in the end the tool you will get the most use out of is the one you will pay the least for, which is this forum.

20 well informed and knowlegable responses in 24 hours (except from, well you know who...)lol
is more then you would get from any other mfg's forum, if they even have one.

[hh_woodworking]

Zach,
It is great that an other School will be getting a Shop Bot. I opted for the 48x48 prt when we got ours the biggest reason was not wanting to give up the extra floor space. Yes there has been a few times that the 8' table would have been nice but over all I am not sorry that I did not get the large table. When it is necessary it just takes a little more figuring to make it work out. Most of the student projects or are less than 4'x4'.

We are mounting are indexer on the y axis at the front of the table. ( this will probability not be completed until summer).

We use a 1" bit to surface the table with good results and low cost just takes a longer to complete.

We run a PC router almost exclusively at 10,000 rpm. noise is acceptable but we do have a High ceiling 14'. Cost is a lot less. We have been running this router 3 years on same brushes and bearings. Do to running it at 10,000.(Yes we use it a lot some weeks we run a funding raising project that will keep it running 7hours / day for 3-4 weeks strait if necessary) Before when we running it a high rpm we replaced the brushes every 3 months.
If you opt for the PC DO GET THE COLLET System from precisebits. Then you can use 1/8 bits which are less expensive to buy, It seam that we use many more small bits than the bigger ones.

Hold down system: Jigs fixtures and clamps and cam locks that we make. Good experience for them to make Jigs and Fixtures. We have a vacuum system but it was never installed. I think that if we do put in place it will increase the noise level a lot . I am thinking of possibly using vacuum pod system at times. We also do a lot of just plain screwing things down to the table.

If I can be of help please contact me

Ed Harrall
Southwest High School
Washburn Mo

[mccoy178]

Congrats on the funding! I would also recommend contacting Ed if you have any questions. I have both a prt120 alpha at my school and a prt95 standard at another high school here in Central Ohio. One has a 5hp spindle and the other has a porter cable router. Email me if you would like to chat!