What should I buy?

[jimmythethief]

I have been toying with the idea of CNC for the last 5 years...and the time has come for me to go ahead with it. I have known about the shopbots for a long time and they look like a pretty heavy duty machine...my main concerns are the proprietary control system and software and the cutting accuracy. This will be my first jump into the CNC world and the leap forward will ideally bring my part time business into full swing, but I do not want to invest all this money in a machine I may not be able to use if Shopbot for some reason isn't here in a couple of years. Also, if down the road I want to do finer work...I don't want accuracy to become an issue. I like the spirit of Shopbot and know that have been in business of a while now...I have also seen that they love what they do and have great customer support, which is a very important feature for me. So I think at this point I have narrowed it down between the Shopbot and another companies machine...The other companies machine is a bit faster, uses "nicer" parts...such as THK ball screws and glide rails, and is claimed to be at .002" accuracy for about $2000 more. The Shopbot on the other hand seems to be a much simpler design and looks like it would be a sinch to fix if something went wrong, also the shop bot is $2000 less, it is also a proven design with years of refinements done to it. I don't mind putting the thing together either...I guess I am just nervous to buy any machine and want to make sure that the parts will be easily gotten, that software will never be an issue and I'm not going to wish I went with a machine with higher accuracy down the road. I'm pretty sure no one on this forum is going to tell me to buy another type of machine, and I don't expect them to...I am just looking out for myself as I am a one man show and have alot to lose if I make a mistake. I know you all understand where I am coming from and I thank you for any and all input.
Erik Francey
efrancey@yahoo.com (mailto:efrancey@yahoo.com)

[gerald_d]

Well Erik, I think that you are looking at all the right factors and it seems that you are pretty capable of making up your own mind. The info here will be (extremely) biased of course.


The only technical comment I can make is to be wary of badly selected, and badly protected, ball-screws. They can be too loose or too tight and are very susceptible to dirt if not protected properly. The market is flooded with ball-screw makers and many of those companies are not going to last as long as you expect your CNC machine to last.

[elcruisr]

Erik, I've been down the road you're on and I'm reasonably happy with my 'bot and making good money as well. You do have many things to consider that you may not be aware of. First I question a $2,000 dollar difference resulting in a difference between .015 and .002 accuracy. Also is their accuracy claim repetitive or absolute? Next, talk to owners of the other machine about how rugged that machine is several years into use. Also, how accurate do you need your parts? Wood expands and contracts alot more than that! On the other hand if you're cutting aircraft composite parts you'll need more accuracy than either offer. Also consider all the "stuff" that will be needed to have a working machine beyond the basic offering. Dust collection and control, parts holding - vacuum or otherwise, cad drawing and toolpathing software, spindle or router head, etc. Also to be honest CNC machines in this price range are not the stiffest or particularly robust. Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty much pleased with mine but next to a Komo, Northwood, Biesse, etc. these are in a different league. What they will do is give you a tool to enter the cnc world and begin making money, if you learn how the game works. Some are happy to stay at this level and some upgrade to heavier, faster machines after a few years. We are actually on the verge of a second shopbot now after 1 year and I know of one company running four.

By the way, Gerald is right about ball screws they can be anything from absolute junk to an absolute dream and many in between. Keeping them clean is the biggest headache many manufacturers have.

Eric

[artisan]

Spend the money you save on more SOFTWARE, more BITS, various types of MATERIAL to test cut and keep us posted in the forum....These are not pushbutton machines and they can't telepathically know what you want them to cut(yet)....the Forum is priceless for getting help....D

[bjwat@comcast.net]

Erik,
I checked out every cnc machine in my price range before discovering the ShopBot. I have to say that I am very happy with my machine, and I like the fact that the ShopBot staff are so friendly and helpful. I doubt that any other competitor out there is going to be able to match the tech support or overall value of the Bot. Not only that...but I would imagine that support would be an additional yearly fee...and thank the ShopBot staff for not charging us for that!

The network of users and their willingness to help out and share ideas and techniques, is what really sold me on the ShopBot. I own a 5X8 with Colombo and 5X8 with plasma...there is NOTHING else out there under $100,000 (at least) that can do what my pair of machines can do.

On the technical side of things, there are a lot of good points made regarding accuracy. There are many variables to consider regardless of manufacturer. Chances are...you aren't going to run into a problem with accuracy. I have to say that the SB was absolutely complete when I went to assemble it. The manual was easy to read & follow...and guess what...No missing parts! LOL! But seriously, I am a tough sell when it comes to something of this cost...and I did research buying a cnc for a few years off and on.

My advice would be to find someone in your area who has one and check it out, kick the tires, ask how that person would go about automating what you are looking to do.

-Brady

[logical@gmi.net]

I just put my bot together and am pleased so far. The big selling points for me were that it came with a lot of support, a great forum, software that is adequate and extra controllers for another axis or indexer etc... What that means to me is that if I ever blow out a controller, I can just hook up to the extra and keep on going until I can get another.

I could have spent 10 grand on a 1990 model used thermwood with no software. Where would I have been then? I knew nothing about cnc except what I read until I put my bot together. I would venture to say that you would be left dangling in the wind with many, many other companies.

Good luck to you,
Wes

[billy]

Have you looked at these machines?

http://www.cyber-nc.com/

[artisan]

Interesting site Billy. They look like solid machines ..... though I have some serious reservations about open ball screw designs... especially for foam carving. The ball screws just tend to get clogged and contaminated easily with foam dust or even sawdust. The point is however, if everything else were equal....and I'm not going to debate that... how would you replace the support offered in the forum.... even if the company support were equal? Knowing what I know now....after 2 1/2 years with my Bot... I absolutely went the right way. I can't imagine toughing it out without the grassroots support here. I've only called tech support one time.....because all my questions have been answered by the generous people on this forum....D

[valensign]

Dang Bill, That is very intresting cause I was just talking with shopbot abot a verticle machine like they are showing on that site.. So much for a original idea..
I'll still build my own machine with though with rack and pinion

[jimmythethief]

I know its been a while since I last posted...but I am happy to report I was able to get a fair rate with the bank and sent my check to ShopBot on monday...I guess I am now, one of you! Thanks folks.

Erik

[jay_mack1@hotmail.com]

What I've seen of Shopbot - software, service, support and the ability to staighten that learning curve. I like the idea of having one in my shop. Looking to go to the bank here soon, after I get my Plan fine tuned. Anyone got some pointers for me.

[artisan]

What do you intend to use it for Mainly ?
How much room do you have for the machine and how fast do you need to be in production ? Do you have a separate circuit for the Controls (Computers) and your machines (Routers, Shopvac, etc.) Throw out some basic info and someone here is most likely already familiar with what you'll need and might want to consider...such as table size, software, router-spindle, bits, hold-downs, materials etc. In spite of the fact that they all start out the same..... you will ultimately customize your machine to your needs.... Lob your info in here and we'll bat it around for you....D

[jay_mack1@hotmail.com]

I'm looking to buy a bot in the next year.

I'm looking to build outdoor furniture, wood signs, shelves and quilt racks, novelty cut outs and then later on custom furniture. I've got an opening in the circuit box in my 24' x 24' garage for another circuit and will be putting the computer and the bot on it. I plan on a 48 x 96 table, porter cable 3 1/4. Going to be working with pine, cedar and oaks and any other hardwoods. I'm a Cad draftsman by trade, with a heavy background in woodworking... since I was 12. I've built many projects, large and small.

[artisan]

Stickman.... I did not realize you already had a CAD background. That will help immensely in understanding the conversion of ideas to parts. There are some noise issues with the PC 3.25 HP router.... but it's a real horse. The single speed version is a Tank (I use this)....but you'll probably want the 5 speed if you're running one z axis for flexibility. I run dual Z's with a variable speed PC 2 hp on the other for finer work and plastics and that is an option to consider. It sounds like most of your work will be in 2D to start. If you're going to want to do 3D, then start looking at Rhino or Artcam or some other package. Remember to orient your machine for loading when you layout your space. You'll need an additional 8-10 ft on the x axis on one end for loading and unloading your sheet goods. Think about dust....lots of dust. What are you waiting for? ......D

[jay_mack1@hotmail.com]

Darrell,

I've also work in a shop with a Masterwood CNC... that has a program so similar to Part Wizard, its scary. I use AutoCAD.

Dust Collection.. I've got a 5hp Shopvac, in time I'd buy a dust collection system.

What is a noise issue... is loud or electrical noise.

Planning on setting shopbot up in front of garage door.

Jay

[toys]

I think if I was going to buy a Porter Cable router I would opt for the single speed and buy a separate speed controler. My speed controler acts erratically probably dust but maybe that darn humidity.

If it is humid where you are get AirCondtioning, and save your equipment. Insolate first though those electric bills are enormous without insulation.

When you get your dust collector get something that is easy to unload like one of those cyclone type that empty into a drum.

[artisan]

The Router is noisy loud (neighbors) ....electrical noise is no problem....unless your router is about to go toast and is arcing badly....

David, what speed controls have you found for the 3.25, I've bought 2 and neither works well so far...D

[jay_mack1@hotmail.com]

Darrell,

Do you or anyone else know where you can get market data on the woodworking industry.

Jay

[kerrazy]

hey there,
There is a magazine that is called Custom Wood Business. It is produce my ISW try them at http://www.iswonline.com/
It is a free subscription and jam packed fool of ideas and stats.
Dale

[Rollie Peter (Unregistered Guest)]

Don't waste your money on a shopbot. They are not user friendly and breaks down constantly. The one in our school shop is 3 years old and has less than 40 hours on it. In our opition it is a joke and not worth owning.

[jaum@alltel.net]

Rollie,
Your experience is a direct opposite to mine. I admit to a steep learning curve on the software but once mastered, makes the shopbot almost invaluable in the woodshop for any serious woodworker. I don't mean to imply you aren't a serious woodworker, but I bet you would change your mind about the shopbot if you gave it a fair trial. 40 hours doesn't represent a fair trial.

[artisan]

So put your machine up for sale Rollie. Someone else will want it for sure. There is nothing else in it's class for the money. Interesting that you've really gone out of your way to post this same message in several threads. What type of machine do you sell?...D

[jamesgilliam]

Rollie, Have had mine for over two years, only breakdowns have been the router and a shopvac, neither of which I can blame ShopBot for. A couple of questions do come to mind though.
1. Having run CNC machines for machine shops years ago (over 15) what is not user friendly about the ShopBot?
2. What is it that keeps breaking down? Could the breakdowns you have had been due to students operating the machine without them having enough prior instruction?
3. Where are you located? If you are close to Houston I would like to come by and see your machine sometime. Who knows, I may have someone in the market for it.

[charles48]

Rollie, Just got mine last Thanksgiving. Since then I have built a table and finished two projects with it. Do not feel like it was misrepresented to me. Maybe you could find someone in your area w/ a little experience willing to help. All this technology can be frustrating especially if you have people looking over your shoulder. Best of luck to you.

[mrdovey]

Rollie...

I'd be surprised if there were not a ShopBotter within driving distance of Great Bend/Ellinwood who'd be willing to give you a hand getting up to speed. All you had to do was post a request for help on the forum.

It sounds as if you've given up on ever being able to use the 'Bot productively. My experiences as a new ShopBot user have been quite satisfying. Would you mind if I give Dr. Law a call next week to offer some assistance in helping Barton County Community College to get theirs up and running? It's a bit of a drive for me; but worthwhile if I can get your machine doing its stuff.

BTW, congrats on your blue ribbon at the county fair last fall!

Morris

[K Simmerer (Unregistered Guest)]

Rollie,
My experience with the shopbot has been totally opposite. I think I put 40 hrs on mine the first week and it's almost 3yrs old. I would bet that it averaged 20hrs a wk for the first 2 years. Never broke down until a lightning strike last year. As far as a 3 year old shopbot not being user friendly, it came Vector as a design and toolpathing program that had a pretty steep learning curve for a neophyte. The new machines are shipped with Partwizard which is much easier to grasp, and coupled with the new Windows software make a pretty good team. I also recall the lady on the phone at time of purchase warning us that if we didn't have vector drawing skills, some basic programing skills and some basic woodworking and mechanical skills that we would have to buckle down for a pretty steep learning curve and that if we were expecting less we would be disappointed. We were prepared for it, we buckled down and we weren't disappointed. Todays software has clipped that curve tremendously. I think the 40 hrs in 3 years statement pretty much speaks for itself about the commitment that any one person put to the task. Things in life that are worthwhile seldom come without putting forth effort. Most of the people on this forum had to put down their own hard earned money to buy the machine, researched the task, HAD to do the work to learn the program to get the return on their investment and put food on their tables for themselves and their families. The balance of the people who bought it as a high end hobby machine had a passion for the craft. The new shopbotters have it easier, but the same rules apply. Write me an essay that shows you understand the following terms and maybe I will sympathize more,

"Sweat equity".
"God helps those who are willing to help themselves".
"Do your Best".
"Doh!!!"
"Use The Force Luke..."

I don't mean to sound harsh dude, but I'm willing to guess that you only have a firm grasp on 2 out of 5.

Keith

[erik_f]

I have owned my bot for less than a year...and there is a thread with about 40 posts from folks that are helping me work out a problem with mine...Like others have said...I didn't know what I was getting myself into, but I knew it was going to be pretty frustarating...and I haven't been dissapointed...its been VERY frustrating at times...like right now...figuring out where this problem is coming from...BUT...the people on the board and the folks at Shopbot have been everything I hoped for in terms of helping with problem solving and generousity...at this point I can tell that when the machines bugs are worked out...I'm quite sure it will be more accurate than the spec...and know its built like a tank...and I never have to go it alone...there is always someone willing to help me get to the other side of the problem as long as I'm willing to bust some knuckles fixing it. I just learned how to use the "force" yesterday


Erik F.

[sevencontinents@mindspring.com]

Anybody in the L.A. area want to sell a used shopbot?

[tonyb@webtop.co.za]

I am keen to get into CNC sign making having done wood signs for some time by hand.There is a great demand for class wood signs where I live in South Africa. The problem is I do not have any experience in the CNC field. I would appreciate if someone could contact me and set me off on the right foot.

[billp]

Gerald - You're on!

[gerald_d]

Tony, we are in Cape Town if you want to chat/visit. (Cell 083 652 9250).