How do you price your HDU signs?

I shouldn't post this but!

You've advertised yourself as an experienced designer who can complete a 4'X8' development sign fast. That designing and revisions can be done quickly and cheap. "You couldn't figure out how to charge for it".

As an Illustrator, designer, and teacher, I take this as an insult.

I know what it takes to come up with clean, sophisticated, intelligent concepts and the way you describe isn't the way it works. It's not easy, or cheap. The history of design goes back for centuries and is deep and rich. It's the Golden Thread which hold us designers together.

This discussion of pricing has missed the point. It should be directed tword quality and improvement of our image. Or how we can offer a better product with our great equipment and get paid a good wage. Not how cheap we can go.

I think this guy has found your nitch, as a dollar based wholesaler.

Joe,
I have followed this thread on both the shopbot and the Letterhead forum. I have to say that I for one always love to read the words
"I shouldn't post this but!"
I can't seem to stop reading a post that starts with those words.

Like the sign industry the card table building comunity is filled with this kind of selling. They justify giving their work away for the sake of staying busy. I get calls all the time from people who want 100 tables for next to nothing. I have always turned these sales away. I am way too busy without working for free. I have a different view than most on the shopbot needing to be running all the time. The shopbot does not cost me a dime sitting idle. With wear and tear on the machine and the electrical consumption that takes place every time I flip that switch I have come to realize that this machine is not a unlimited resource. So I am trying to use the time that I have with the machine to the best and most profitable that I can get out of it. If you feel you need to hear the noise without making any real money just record the machine running and then you can play back the tape over and over again.

So many that are in "business" do not realize what really is included in the everyday operating expenses of said business. This goes way beyond the shopbot and materials.

By the way I was not allowed to use the "Poke her" word so I had to write "card table" instead. I did not realize that we were sensored so close on this forum?

Joe, the LAST thing I want to do is insult you or anyone else in here, believe me. I started out as the Devil's advocate, I admit that, but that's just because I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. After studying this thread as well as the Letterhead forum on all of this, I have come to see the error of my ways,...and I apologize for my ignorance, because I AM ignorant! I am getting an EDUCATION in here (and elsewhere!), so please be patient with me. Getting involved with boards like this and the Letterhead forum is ONE of the best things I've done since I bought my used old Bot and quit my job.

I just may suffer from a self-esteem issue. Heck, I don't know! I was born with a love for art and design as well as working with my hands, but I grew up being told most every day about "starving artist" and how I should go to technical school or something. Taking any kind of risk was frowned apon in my family. "Do the safe thing and get a paycheck every Friday."

When I say, "It's easy!", I'm just mostly comparing CAD to the old drafting table. I am in no way saying, "Any idiot can do this." I know better than that.

I'll be 54 next month. I put that out there Joe because I've seen your photo and I know you're an older guy. I want you to know that you're not talking with some mixed-up teenager, but you MAY be talking with a confused and misinformed artist.

To any and all that I may have upset in here, I am sorry.

Peace.

Dave, there is an automatic spammer that posts messages promoting on-line gambling. Blocking the p0ker word keeps the spammer out of the Forum

If many things that have been said here are true, why not charge $1000 a square foot, or $2000?
Is it that there is a certain amount that the market place will stand?
Yellow pages are a national (international) company.
Selling in rural Kansas is probably more expensive than down town Boston.
I repeat, you need a quality product (at the right price). If someone in you market place produces a product at a similar quality to yours, sells it for less, but still makes a profit he (or she) is happy with, where do you think the business will go over time?
Joe says 'As an Illustrator, designer, and teacher, I take this as an insult.'
In this day and age this also needs inspection.
It has been said by many (including myself) that this Forum is a Shopbot university. Even more so is the web as a whole.
Google 'signs' you get 437 million web pages, 776 thousand images. Google 'carved signs' you get thousands of images.
With this wealth of information you can see what works and what doesn't work.
There are a limited number of shapes for signs. Some fonts look particularly good, as do certain colour combinations.
Software now does the lettering layout for you, no longer do you need to understand kerning.
Images are everywhere on the web. If you can use Coral, Illustrator, CAD programs you can create images from photographs to fit your sign.
This is not in any way to belittle trained illustrators, sign makers and artists.
It is to show that times have moved on.
A year ago I could not have made, by hand, a yard sale sign.
I have since made hundreds of V-carved signs.
You have to compete in the market place you are in. If someone has lower outgoings they can, and probably will, charge less.
My main business is making large Traditional rocking horses, which sell for thousands of dollars. If you stand my horse up against many of the British rocking horse makers (there aren't that many!) a customer will find difficulty in quickly spotting which is the better horse. In fact many are of the same high quality.
But prices differ by up to 200%.
I have orders already for this year which are equal to my entire sales of last year, and I expect to have at least the same number for the rest of this year.
I have found a way of making my rocking horses to the same high standard (we give an unconditional lifetime guarantee) as before, but at a much more economical price.
I market my horses on quality, increase my sales by price.

Marketing and pricing are complicated business decisions. Moaning about the effect other peoples prices are having on your business is a waste of time and breath. You are not going to change them. Many (most?) of customers are still going to be heavily influenced by price.
I still feel strongly that one businesses strategy, that works for them, may not work for another business, even in the same locality.

.............Mike

"There are a limited number of shapes for signs."

You've got to be kidding.

"I have found a way of making my rocking horses to the same high standard (we give an unconditional lifetime guarantee) as before, but at a much more economical price.
I market my horses on quality, increase my sales by price."

Please excuse me, I'm just trying to get a handle on this statement. You can do the same type of quality as before but more economically...so why lower the price? If you find another way to reduce the cost again will you reduce the selling price again?

There's an old saying that goes "It's not how much you make, it's how much you keep". It would seem that the more you reduce the price the more items you are going to have to produce to end up with the same amount of profit.

Evidently, there is a market for the higher priced horses, even though they all look alike as you said. If you can do them more economically than the guy who sells his for the highest price, then it would seem logical to sell yours for that same price, make more money per item and not have to produce as many or work as hard.

Just because you can V carve a few bits of wood does not mean you are a sign maker.

Computers are tools like any other- if you don't have design talent then all the computer software in the world won't help you one bit. All the old skills are still valid- you just use a PC to help you with the composition.

Sit someone with no talent in front of Corel and they will turn out rubbish- it's the talent part that counts.

There is some really great stuff in this thread and I have enjoyed reading everyone's different perspectives very much....and here is my two cents worth. Pricing is generally a function of your costs...initially, and then your reputation later on. At least that's been my personal experience. Starting out, I worked from my house and underbid everyone to get the work. My customers at this point were all price oriented.... and ultimately a pain in the *%^$ to deal with....but I was getting my education. Now, with eight years behind me as a sign maker and a modest 4000 sq. ft. shop, I get to pick jobs more carefully and my clientele has improved tremendously. Like Joe Crumley, I tend to retail my HDU Signwork for between 100.00 and 150.00 dollars per foot. This is a starting point and does not always include intricate 3D embellishments. I also wholesale to local shops when I have time for 65.00 to 80.00 a ft...for unfinished signs.

The absolute biggest factor in my pricing has become the look and design of our signs. I separate myslf with 2.5D router work ....that is beyond the scope of most of my competition.... and solid design and coloring. I have found that competing in an average market where everyone does the same type of work has little future in it as the work becomes a commodity and eventually price does win out....like buying a loaf of bread. The Shopbot allows you to be more creative than that....but will only do what you tell it to do. If your routed signs look the same as a sandblasted sign....then THAT's your competition. Prismatic letters. V Carving and Dimensional work are what set my signs apart from my competitors and allow me to reach the better clientele.

I have found that good businesses REALLY want to differentiate themslves and stand out from their competition....and catering to that has been my bread and butter.....my two cents....D

If you do what you've always done....you'll get what you've always got. (I don't know who said it)

I would have to disagree with you Andy on the talent statement. I for one have no atristic ability in my body. But I have 20 plus years of computer experience. My wife is very talented and has an Art and Design degree but little skills with illustrator or corel or Autocad. I bought a CNC machine to make up for the lack of talent in my hands. She can come up with an original design but I can bring it to life through the use of my computer skills. My point is that the talent part is becoming less of a factor as technoligy gets better.

Let me also say that I admire all on here that has the talent to build original designs by hand. I am not saying that you are not far better off than myself I am just saying that the gap between us is slowly closing. Does this mean that I am getting more talent or does this mean that talent is not as vital as it once was? I guess this is a matter of opinion.

A limited number does not necessarily mean a small number. Proportions will differ, but Google for signs and you will run out of alternative shapes after a while. (I am not talking about shapes like horses or Kentucky or bananas).

Manufacturing, pricing and profit.

If I can create more horses (or anything) more efficiently and economically, in a shorter time, thereby making more a month, I would be an idiot not to sell them for the higher price.
You say "Evidently, there is a market for the higher priced horses," there is, but its a small market compared to the market for lower prices.
So I still spend the same amount of time making horses as I did before, but make considerably more of them than I did previously. I could not sell all those horses at premium prices, but by passing on to my customers my new economies, I sell all the horses and make considerably more profit over all.

Doug said above:
"It is up to you to determine what you are worth. That is my point exactly.
" Also, what your future holds regarding available funds for growth, new equipment, and peace of mind." And this varies with different peoples differing financial circumstances.
"This may be one time to really look at where you are headed. And, be honest with yourself. " This is also great advice.
My point is, to answer Marks original question we need to offer advice on what is involved in pricing. The mere fact that one man can get $100 or $50 or $200 for a sign, is not necessarily relevant to Mark, unless he is competing in exactly the same market place.
Price too high, you have no customers, price too low, you have no profit. You must decide what price to charge according to your personal circumstances.
There appears to be a vein of discontentment in this thread because others are getting business which they may like to have, because they are charging lower prices. That's business! The solutions are many, but probably not easy.

............Mike