VCarved buttons

Wow,
What a difference between making a file for myself for a one of, and then making a file for a new employee up North Kirk hired with less than 2 weeks training!
Referencing from the same spot on spoilboard/naming files so they're obvious/combining toolpaths in the correct order/homing so no Keypading to change bits/ and tweaking so it will cut 3 species with the least amount of sanding....Oh Yeah, and trying to speed it up by 30 seconds here and a minute There---------OK all Vented:)
"How do I make mistakes today...Oh let me count the ways..."
I'm THIS Close:)
Time for breakfast!!

Customer liked that last Stella design so much they opened an account, BUT wanted one that looked more like a Compass Rose.
Did one right off the bat based on the Stella design, BUT thought it was too similar and spent several days on/off getting "Fancy"and VCarving and bitmap tracing:(
In the end they liked the simplest/fastest cutting one the best:)
Easy to overthink things for me:)
Also a close up that looks like an optical delusion(or I'm tired)....And YES, The countersink for buttonholes should have been ON the line...I know,I know,.....:)

Scott, those are awesome!!

Thanks Dick!
Same little $4 Kyocera 60degree engraving as when you were here. Did try an Onsrud .25 engraving bit and My Vortex 2F 60degree again, trying to eliminate a bit change, but had tearout where Fluting toolpaths met. Seems a new sharp bit with low mileage and a second "speed pass" eliminated both tearout AND sanding..looks almost burnished in person. Edges on cutout are only thing that needs sanding to soften.
Getting boring though...inlays and Celtics and Tin now this design is done:)

Those look great! Nice job.

What are your feeds and speeds Scott?
Dick

Thanks Will.
Dick, .7,.4,17K for Drillman1's .125"60 for both woods. Had tearout at .8IPS on the Maple on 1 in 6 so didn't try faster on Bloodwood as customer is waiting.
Normally do 1/2D passes, BUT second pass always caused tearout as it reversed, so 1 pass full depth up to 80%D works with that bit in Bloodwood and Purpleheart without much deflection. Tearout always at 45degrees to woodgrain at acute angles...so avoid if possible.
If 1/2D passes then 1,.5,16K is usually good.
OH, cleanup pass at 1.5,1.5,17K full depth works wonders.

Latest batch of new design.
SUPPOSED to look like a Compass Rose.
Turns out all the Bloodwoods are sold already and need to make another batch.

Does bloodwood "bleed" when wet?
Actually a serious question-it's one exotic I have not used.

Dave,
Honestly didn't know about unfinished Bloodwood/Satine.
Knew most solvents would leach out color, and know with 3 coats of oil the color won't transfer to light colored fabrics even after a 3 Woolite washes(UNLIKE Padauk which is only for dark fabrics unless 4 coats Watco).
Cold water on paper towel left the lightest of smudges and may just have been 400G dust. 10 minutes in cold water didn't change color of water, but boiling for 2 minutes in Nuke and then 5 minutes later is the color you see on the right in the Ball jar.
Linseed with no solvents on left was VERY slight.
Got a scrap in a watersoaked paper towel and going to leave overnight, if stained in AM I'll post pic.
Very dense(usually sinks in water or oil), carves beautifully, but can be splintery/brittle on cutout(like Lacewood, but not as bad) unless ALL the way through and be cautious cutting tabs off.
One of my favorites now.
Cutting speeds about 80% of Hard Maple seems to work well.

Sounds like you have your material tests down well.
Thanks for the info.
Nice looking pieces as usual.

Just an aside...Black tray wood is C-90 Torrefied Ash with 3 coats Linseed/Beeswax NOT stained and the color goes all the way through. Machines beautifully and dimensionally stable, BUT loses a lot of mechanical strength as that's the highest level of Torrefication.
Basically cooked in a vacuum...C-30 is only slightly darker than the natural wood color and C-50 almost a Walnut color. Apparently doesn't work well with very dense woods like Hard Maple, so only Ash/soft Maple/Tamarack and woods like that are used. NOT for everyone(and HATE the pores on Ash), but an interesting wood Dad bought 100's of BF of. VERY thirsty wood.

Dave,
Bloodwood scraps in a Still soaking wet paper towel after 17hrs had zero color transfer to towel.
Grain raise was almost non-existent.
Forgot to mention one of my favorite features on Bloodwood is that it's usually chatoyant (cateye effect) when viewed 90 degrees to grain. Means you have that beautiful reddish color when viewed with grain, and then you rotate it and has almost a Quilted effect over the entire surface.
Think that's why women pick the Bloodwoods most often, as when they move or the angle of light changes...the button almost "Flashes" like Quilted/Curly, but the whole surface usually.
One lady was cherry-picking the buttons on appearance, and I told her to pick her 3 favorites....then I rotated the tray and she picked 3 different ones! She was hooked! :)

If it helps, I have done bloodwood inlays in bamboo (non caramelized) and used Behlen Laquer with zero bleeding.

Scott
I also bought a batch of the heat treated wood, mine was poplar it looked great. It looked like really nice walnut but it didn't carve well. It seems that the heat treating process destroys the bonds between the wood fibers so small details split off too easily. not as much of a problem for engraving but anything sticking up cracked off too easily for me to use it. It is totally rot proof, I was told, made some raised beds, no rot after 2 Georgia summers and no pressure treated chemicals in the garden If they last 20 years I think I'll be even on the cost.

Hey Bob,
Yep, the higher/darker Torrefied is too brittle for thin sections.
DOES engrave really clean because the fibers cut off so clean.
Think we lucked out on the cost...Dad went to the Kiln as it was only an hour away in Quebec Province. They only processed customers wood in full kiln loads, but they hooked him up with a nearby siding manufacturer. Turns out they use a LOT of it in Canada as exterior siding/trim.
You should be good for a while on yours, as this siding guy gets his kiln loads back, and THEN lets it sit out in the weather for an entire year exposed to elements before he even touches it! Even though they add steam to the chamber on the last phase to put moisture INTO the wood, he said it still took that amount of time to fully acclimate for siding. He gave Dad a pick-up truck load for I think it was $3.50 a BF for 4/4 (5-8"X8-10').
He gave Dad a few sample boards of different species/Torrefication levels. Think Poplar was one...going to have to dig them out of closet and look at them again.
NOT funny, but that Quebec plant burned to the ground when they lost Vac and oxygen got into the chamber...so what I've got is it!
Been trying to think of Bathroom/Outside items to make stuff out of it. People are loving the trays though and asking if we sell them...GOT to come up with something not so plain Vanilla though.

Had to resurface and seal my torrefied button backer/spoilboards with General Finish "Woodturners Finish" (water based PU with 1 hour recoat for THICK layer),so during one of the waits I dug out my Torrefied samples from closet.
Just thought I'd post for anybody interested.
Now that I see them again, I remember that until you get to about C-80, it machines like regular wood for the most part, except it cuts clean and more like dust than chips above C-50(at least for surfacing).
Would have been more interested if Dad had got some Soft Maple(and I see some people are offering Cherry? :)
http://www.torrefactionplus.ca/torre...od.php#qualite

Would be worried about screwing or bolting without careful testing. Did joint some pieces of C-90 Ash and glued with TB I, II,III, and Gorilla PU for a strength test as I had read gluing was horrendous, but Max G. got around to to gluing the exact wood Dad had given him with TBII and said it was a normal TB joint and wood failed before glue line so mine are still glued together after 18 months and still good after being knocked/dropped around the shop.
Put a straight edge on those surfaced sample boards that were surfaced 18 months ago, and even though they were just leaning against a closet wall, and humidity is 30% higher now..They're all still perfectly flat.
Last pic the color is lousy, but they are both C-90 Ash and the one on the left is my backer board with 4 coats of woodturners finish and right is just rough 4/4 that we have so much of.
Interesting stuff and think I might like the C-50 through C-70 in a closer grained wood than the Ash I have.
Interesting article about Martin Guitars
http://onemanz.com/guitar/articles-2/torrefication/
and was nice to finally see a pic of the vac chamber.
http://mectorrefaction.com/index.html

This one looks interesting enough to get me into the shop:)
Bloodwood or Purpleheart....Decisions, decisions.
1/2" BN in the center is making me nervous.

Cool buttons Scott! You could do a double tap with a 0.5" core box bit instead of an upcut ballnose.

Thanks Scott.
No .5"core box in shop, but doing a profile ramped cut at wimpy .01" passes (12:12 for 57 buttons see pic) and I may be OK.
Never even got to the BN cut as I was getting tearout and ran 5 tests in the Hard Maple kids blocks with both a 30 and a 45 degree.
Design is from a VInlay proto I have got around to yet that was 1.75". For this one I shrunk it down to .857" OD for the design and it's probably too busy. new 45 was better,30 may have been a little dull from Bloodwood(got 5 new bits coming tomorrow).
Going to try a 60 today but cut will only be .017" deep and worried about sanding design off.
Going to describe bits as an engraving bit(which it actually is) with the true .012" flat and maybe add a .04" flat depth today.
VERY glad I tried a block test first while I was sanding/coating Bloodwood and Purpleheart blanks.
Yesterday I skipped adding a coat of GF woodturners finish to the little blocks because I was rushing. Blanks normally get 1 coat at 220G and then 30 minutes later the 400&600G.
MAY try eliminating a vector and leave design proud, but cut times are already at 2 hours for the 57 buttons.
Started at normal Bloodwood settings of .8,.5,17K and went down to .5,.3,17K on third test and still got tearout, but it was better.
Gotta love proto'ing teeny stuff:)
Funny how preview never has tearout.
That center cut is only .51"OD. Does Infinity .5" bowl bit have plunge capacity? May be a perfect excuse to finally buy one.
I'll add close up pics of the reject test cuts later maybe.
scott

Fresh sharp tools and high RPM are the ticket with the small bits. Since it is only a 300Hz spindle, you have to pull the MS down to compensate. 4-flute tools, although not as strong as 2-flute and not as much clearance for wood chips, will 'rub' the part 2X that of a 2-flute tool. It will effectively double your RPM...I reach for 2-flute for hogging out where I want that chip clearance, and 4-flute when I want a nice finish.

The only thing I wish the DT had was a higher RPM spindle for times like you describe. As a general rule, the softer the material, the higher the RPM you need in order to shear off cleanly. If the tool isn't sharp or RPM isn't high enough for the MS, then it just YANKS the material out. This is apparent on 3# insulation foam - pink stuff - where you can cut it at 8000 RPM, but the edge quality sucks. Pop a 4-flute tool in and run it at 18k and the edges are super crisp because it's taking lots of little bits instead of big ones.

I think you'll get better results with fresh tools...which should of course, be built into every job.

Thanks for posting...Buttons are looking good!

-B

Thanks Brady,
I put a Sharpie mark on the depth ring for every hour of Bloodwood/Purpleheart cutting, and every 3 hours of Maple/Walnut trying to get an idea of tool life for ordering. Normal Fluting toolpath buttons seem better because I can do it in one pass now(Tried 2 shallower pass depths, but the second reversed direction pass caused most tearout I found on the acute angles).
The 30 had 3 Sharpie marks on it, but 45 was brandie new.
Going to try a fresh 60 today, and then play with flat depth when fresh 30's arrive.
Need to play with my pass depths for the VCarve as we don't have as much control in the toolpaths.
I try never to max out at 18K, and just adjust for 17K.
Am I being too cautious about never running long periods at 18K? (this would be 9 hour cutting days/5 days a week/with about 1/2 at 18K)
Look at "Lady in the Woods" dress in bottom left of pic where the 30 was just too close/deep together for the unsupported end grain to survive.
That was a brand new bit I know, and I should have used a 45 or 60 I think.
Think I may be running into the same problem with this little design?
Trying for a final diameter button of 1.1" using a WHiteside point cutting roundover (.5"D .25R) and maybe asking too much of the wood and have to increase Diameter for this design.
Denser wood may solve it all by itself, but Maple and Walnut are selling well. May only offer these Bloodwood,Purpleheart,Yellowheart(never cut my Yellow though).
Fun playing/learning! but frustrating at times:)
Know a lot of people have good luck with 3F, but we only use max of about .08" of the tip usually, so these little 2F 1/8's are pretty painless to swap out at $4 to make sure we stay fairly sharp.
Will look at 4F 1/8's.
Thanks again.
scott

It's a tool...run it until it dies and buy another one. People made it. It's going to break sooner or later. In the end it's all the same whether you baby it or not. It is rated for 18k...I've run mine @ 18k for over 10hrs, and it's all good. (I've run my Colombo 5hp for 70hrs straight without stopping @ 20k)

Putting the screws to the spindle by not warming it up before all expands out to operating tolerance is what kills these things. It's exactly the same as starting your car in 15 deg weather and then mashing the pedal and doing a bonzai run. Betcha spin a bearing...When it's warmed up though...all the bearing surfaces are supported with oil/grease and there is no reason to be scared about running 18k.

Lady in the Woods looks good. It's the nature of the material that is causing you issues. If you are going to do intricate work like that, you want something really tight grained or homogenous like maple or synthetic material. Additionally, as you get down to very tiny moves at small scale, the difference in density between the xylem and phloem will cause some things to either lay over and get sucked into the bit or just snap off. When you get really detailed, under microscopic view, grain becomes akin to cables. Open grain woods really blow out when you try to hold detail because of the air/void/'interstacies' in the material. (should this be today's word?) ;)

At some point I will put a high RPM spindle on my DT for doing delicate things like this. Something in the 50-80k RPM range would suit my needs nicely. Just as a comparative yardstick per se, one of those TurboCarvers or dental drills spinning at like 350,000-400,000 can cut an egg shell, lightbulb or other delicate material with ease. You might be able to do some egg carving at 18k, but I would put money on it imploding sooner or later. The chipload is so light and 'non-grabby' with a high RPM 'spindle' that you can cut any lumber, regardless of grain or density, without tear out. The main problem with these high RPM deals is duty cycle and lack of torque...so it isn't a spindle replacement, but something to ponder in the realm of possibility as you think about improving your process in your mind's eye.

-B

Thanks Brady....18K it is!(even if it is almost 2 months of SSDI)
Yep "Lady" is for the house, and a little work with my small 1/8" V palm gouge cleaned it right up.
Super Curly didn't help, and may just have hit the grain wrong.
STILL using standard Default VR settings and that's probably not helping...Rereading your VR article and may finally give myself a "Custom Small VCarve" setting.
Turns out today will be hand sanding/bristle disc'ing/recoating some B.Walnut buttons that came from up North and are unacceptable as is for our first commercial account customer:(
Just as well to wait for the new 30's.
Be interested in what you're looking for at in a high speed spindle when you get to it.
Too bad we aren't always so specialized, and need the low end torque for other stuff...Not sure it's worth the trade off for me, but good to know.
Got $30 bucks each for the little Loon 3D buttons(collector's mainly) at the national show, so may have found my personal niche for custom batch persnickety work once the production bread and butter Alosada stuff on the Northern Desktop is done:)
I appreciate all your help over the last 2 years!
scott

Niche markets - that's where it's at. If you find a little corner of the world where you can be a big fish in a small pond for a while, you will do well. Always do your best and you will be peerless.

I am not going to assume to know your business, but my initial thoughts about new markets would be to consider widening your margins a bit by offering a different material. While wood buttons have a certain allure; and plastic usually doesn't; metal is something that may bring higher profits due to perceived value.

Of course, you can't cost effectively machine metal buttons...However, you can leverage what you do have to first machine a perfect master in some synthetic material. Then polish it up so it is perfect. Then make a silicone mold. Then do a cold cast brass, bronze or copper casting and buff the finished product with black wax. Material would be dirt cheap and you could cast and demold 30 in less time it takes you to machine only one...

Something to consider...Smooth-On

-B

Thanks Brady...Vid was interesting and hadn't seen that before and my fiberglass mold making experience could come in handy.
Reminds me of the buttons I bought at the April show specifically for you to scan, only to get home and flip them over and find copyright marks on them:( (what can I say....previous day was 16 hours making my very first 3D Loon button at .9" height...and woke up after 3 hours sleep to sand and oil them...totally spaced taking them off the display card and checking the backs before they were wrapped....cameo was $35 and the geometric was $20).
Cameo was made using a silicone mold it turns out...so definitely NOT an IBild scan candidate.
(Still glad I sent the Soapstone Inuit antique carving though...just wish I could get around to carving the Walrus face though)
Kind of a Purist though, and even have a hard time convincing myself to try the 99.9% Silver polymer clays to mount my Opal.
http://www.riogrande.com/Content/PMC...s-HT-psd?Pos=4
Still want to try cutting a cuttlefish mold(or ceramic using "lost wax") on the Desktop for Sterling though.
NOT in it for the money as the big 6 0 is 2 months away, and would only be doing it to supplement SSDI.
Button collectors are VERY interested in small limited edition button runs in rare/unique pattern exotic woods! signed/dated/numbered though.
Mary only brought 6 to the National Button Society National show(all I had finished with 4 coats) and she wound up buying 2 for herself.
Sounds about right for me at this stage. Of course when Dad does finally die, money won't be a concern(Hope he lives to 120!!!), but still only want to do work I love.
I CAN see using that process for some stuff though.
Bumming about Walnut buttons I was refinishing...Reminded me of your "Back to Basics" thread. One of his backer boards(spoilboard for buttons) must be .03" too high as the entire design/material thickness is too thin.
Bad enough the button is only .17" (too thin), but at the bottom of design the buttonholes are only .04" thick material and I just took some embroidery thread and managed to rip out the Walnut fairly easily....All 30 are JUNK:(
If your spoilboards aren't FLAT and accurate....you might as well not cut small stuff.
There! Vented.
scott

Nature has some of the best copyright-free designs out there...and many of them are GOOD! :p I've scanned walnuts, acorns, shells, branches, flowers, fruit etc etc for customers. Scale isn't a factor because you can scale them down. Some have sent 'arrangements' of natural things to be scanned (even rocks in a specific pattern or to create a unique 3D textured background).

There is no such thing as making too much money....especially when you get paid to do what you love. I'd never feel guilty about that. If you do, you can donate.

Artists do limited 'prints' all the time. Same with coins. Your cast parts can be done the same way. Number and sign. Make them heavy enough (plaster filled) and few will know they are not metal. If you make up your own catalog, you can have limited 'sets' every year. Once they are gone, they're gone. Gold or silver leafing is another possibility...

Yes...flatness is king. You can cheat a bit by doing less per run across a smaller area. This will keep the Z more consistent.

-B

Yep. Came really close to sending you some mineral specimens to scan, but the most interesting ones had undercuts or were so busy I really didn't think they would cut well. (Pyrite "sand dollars" for example)
Almost sent you a really nice very funky shaped burl as well(may in the future).
Gotta run and get my LaFuma lounge set up for the eclipse:)
Hope you have clear skies like me.
Life is tough:)
scott

Our first commercial account just tossed our first four basic fluted designs in their Christmas catalog.
Been building inventory.,and forgot to take pics for 3 weeks.
Captured these before they went out the door yesterday.
All done by a retiree named Bonnie who had never touched wood before.
Teaching her how to cut so I can be downsized:)
scott

Scott W.
Can Infinity bowl and tray bits plunge/spiral ramped in a .1" oversized hole?
Love to try one vs diamond grinding a SETools extra brazing off?
Thanks
scott

Scott:

Those look good enough to eat.
Trouble is I can't make up my mind between the dark chocolate, milk chocolate, or butter cream!

from our photographer/salesperson
"they look like yummy cookies!! LOL"
Rethinking to calling them "Beaver treats" or "Ultimate fibre treats" :)
"Wookies" might be great for Vegans.
Means a lot from you Dave!
scott

Hey Scott,

I know that the 1.25" one won't, but not sure about a smaller diameter one. I have a 0.75" one, but don't use it much and can't remember how much it doesn't cut in the center. Not near the shop to look at it at the moment. They do leave a good size nib uncut in the center and can't be plunged much more than 0.1".

Thanks Scott.
Guess I'll finally buy some and find out:)
Both the 3/4 and a larger shank and diameter for display trays.
Thanks
scott

Not much difference between Keyfobs and Buttons:)
First order that was made sight unseen by buyer who had only seen Button quality is going out today to Camden,Maine :)
Once a Tree
http://www.onceatree.net/products/
Thanks Bleeth for American made hardware recommendation of BallChain...we used their SS heavier duty 4"!
Oh, Stand was made by Ron the new second Desktop operator...without a Desktop and conventional tools in 12 hours after seeing the finished fobs.
GOOD initiative on his part!!

Quite nice Scott.. if you want to bump the class up a little on the chain set up for less money let me know. I use a brass v clip and a brass key ring. total cost on my set up about 30 cents. Will set you up with the company I buy wholesale from.

Thanks Eugene,
Can you e-mail me the info if it's American made?
Went stainless as it's a Yachting town, and Carabiner as my Mom at 84 has problems adding a key to split ring style(Dad is worse at 87) and I was rock climber so love 'biners.
Brass would work well if I could see it and it wasn't plated.
Say hi to Tina, and sorry about your Uncle:(
Take care,
scott

First totally custom order out the door today.... 18 days before deadline. :)
4 coats of Linseed/Beeswax and sanded to 600G prior.
Onsrud 30engraving with .005" flat for fonts.

Oh, .5"BN for scalloped edge and countersunk button holes.
Slowest part was the reduced Plunge speed on the font to prevent tearout in Cherry.
NOT my first choice wood choice for tiny font, or an oil finish because of bleeding in the beginning of summer temps.
Color is still coming into wood, and reverse side is 2-3 shades lighter.
The lighter buttons just need a little more sun, but will never be as dark as the full heartwood blank I used for 18 of them.

Nice looking buttons. good job on the custom order.