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Dave....I think you have possibly made Andy's point for him. As CNC abilities become more widespread and computer skills are just a "given", the price for this will come down while good design and the abilty to create the content will continue to be in great demand and separate one business from another. Ultimately you will need both...D
Mark, sorry if you took the "bottom feeder" personally. Not my intent other than a generalization to describe the "lowest price mentality for quality, custom work". I just have a difficult time understanding why anyone would make the investment in technology, training, software, materials, advertising, selling etc, etc and conclude that these unique capabilities and capacity should be marketed as the "low cost/ Low profit" solution provider. Regardless of their overhead and cost structure.
Just doesn't add up to me. The guy who "builds the better mousetrap" doesn't enter the market at bargain basement prices, does he? If its clearly better, you expect to pay more for the value you percieve it holds to satisfy your requirements.
When a manufacturer has a patented or proprietary item, they do not sell it based on time and material. Rather the OVERALL value to the customer compared to the competitive alternatives available that could or might satisfy the need.
Markets and manufacturing capabilities are commonly segmented as "High Mix, low volume" and "Low Mix, High Volume" environments. Correspondingly these segments command market competitive prices for all the reasons described.
Low Mix/High volume = production efficiencies and economies of scale allowing for "commodity" or low cost provider pricing. This does not imply low profits though. Just more economical fabrication methods weather through automation or offshore labor.
Conversely Low Volume/High Mix environments require and command high prices for signature or custom items being provided. The proprietary and unique nature of the product is easily justified and includes YOU, what you have accomplished to get where you are, to do what you choose to do, and how YOU value it. If you thinks it is of low value, you certainly can't convince someone otherwise.
UP selling is a skill and a state of Mind but 1st one has to believe, understand, and present the reasons their VALUE, Features, & benefits outweigh the alternatives. Sell the sizzle, not the steak. Then deliver to those high standards.
GOOD SELLING OUT THERE TO ALL.
How do you argue with a man who builds 14 foot tall horses? As I reread my post I have to agree that I probably ended up making Andy's point a better one.
Being very new to sign building I have really enjoyed reading all the information that this thread has brought out. Many people on here have a passion for their work and it shows. I have talked with Joe on the phone and his passion for his work is very clear even over the phone. For this I admire all on here that share this passion with those of us new to the business.
I have yet to let go of my security blanket of the day job. So I find that finding time to do projects limits me to only taking on the projects that will be very profitable.
Jerry,
It's ok, I took nothing personal.
There are manufactures lower down the price scale than me, but with most of them it's obvious in their products!
As for bottom feeding, my horses are still out of reach of a lot of people, unfortunately.
Now, if anyone wants to take on the USA distributing rights...........
Dave
Wrong horse maker!!
Mine are only 4 feet tall.
..............Mike
I was refering to Darrell on the size of the horses. Sorry for the confusion.
Awwww...Dave, you made me blush.... These threads are what I really enjoy so much on this forum. Even though I haven't participated so much lately, I enjoy seeing this educated and talented community hash and thrash things out and share thought processes....VERY informative stuff and often eye opening....D
Jerry, no offense taken, brother.
I've gotten a lot out of this thread. One thing it has prompted me to do is some serious research on my local competition and I've come away knowing that, while I may not presently be able to command $100.00-$150.00 per square, I can do a good bit better than I am now. In time, as my reputation grows, I hope to do as well as some in here and elsewhere. My biggest issue right now is to get some of the "middle men" I do work for to unserstand that THEY aren't charging enough for these signs, and they are not. My rates are going up and their "retail" prices are going to have to reflect that. We should still be in good shape.
My next issue is to find my own market that eliminates the middle man. As I said above, my ad in the Yellow Book has been a huge disappointment so far. I'd like to hear how some of you good folks market your work other than the yellow pages, ESPECIALLY some of you guys that operate from your home like I do. Working out of your own shop or garage certainly saves a lot on overhead vs. renting "a place in town", but it also keeps you out of the public eye and that can be a bad thing.
Mark, I too worked nights and week ends for 3+ years until my "career job evaporated". Fortunately I had set up and expanded my back yard shop and was prepared to give it a go full time. 13 months later its still fun, profitable, and growing all the time. I decided early on (after a few camps & Jamboree in 05)I would follow 3 simple rules.
1) pick our focus areas based on what we could accomplish profitably and successfully with our resources.( Signs, Turnings, & Trim)2) Rather make one sign/project at a premium than 5 at a discount in the available hours I had.(Go where the money is)
3) Spend a minimum of 16 hrs a week selling via phone, e-mail, and personal visits. (Franchises wait for someone to come in the store front which I don't have and don't want)
3)Take on even challenging jobs perhaps beyond my current skill level and learn the tool/techniques so at least if I burn up some stock and bits, my education is being paid for.We generally don't sell things people NEED rather what they WANT.
(If they want it and have the budget, we say YES then figure out how to make it happen)
The one step I recently took was to join my local Chamber of commerce. I attend as many functions as time will permit and find there is a lot of good networking contacts that provide leads, and referrals. Plus Chamber members like to work with other members.
A couple ideas for your consideration. Find out who the property managers are in the area. They have recurring needs for signs on multiple commercial and residential properties. Watch your paper or use your library to find "new business licenses" issued in your county or township. And if you stay on the wholesale side, check the web for all local franchise sign shops. You can usually find their e-mail addresses and send notes, offers, photos etc to stay in front of them from your PC at the Day job.
Finally consider a paid listing subscription on http://signsearch.com/
Then just keep investing in your skills and shop while you still have that day job so when you do make the break, you have the experience, capacity, and skills you'll need. We learn something new every day so its like being a kid again only with better toys.
And of course continue to seek and contribute via the best resource available here at the forum. I think of it as my virtual community of consultants and advisors with a never ending capacity for ideas and support.
Best of luck and BOT on.
About quoting sub contract signs; how do you deal with customers that need 2, sometime 3 and even 4 quotes on a single sign project?
Some of my customers ask me this sort of multiples quotes having in mind to have a price range (going from simple cutouts, part of it carved and fully carve awesome kinda project) to offer their customers...
I always try to keep it to no more than 2 prices (2 different versions of a same projects) but I find it hard to say no when someone ask for (a) price(s).
On the other hand spending 1/2 hour to 1 hour (sometime more) on each quotes can make me wonder about this kind of practice since in any case I get the order, only one of 'em will became an order... should I charge for quotes?! I could I handle this?!
This is different than when someone ask for price range for 10, 100 or 10 000 of a same part; much easier and faster to quotes than sign project... what am I missing?
I gonna buy one of those old timey shoe stands and set it up right outside the front door. You know the one's from way back, when you'd climb in the chair and a chap would black your boots. Yep, that's that what I'm gonna do, and I'll advertise, A Shoe Shine With Every CNC Order.
Don't anyone else try this, it's my own idea! Exclusive too.
Also I'm gonna make big horses and bears, and when I get really good at it, I'll doem or less. The more I make, the less I'm gonna charge. No one else will be able to compete with me. No Sir,
Watch out Raymond, here I come. I hear you make some good signs. hehehehehe
j.