How do you price your HDU signs?

Jerry, that's some sage advice. I need to hob-nob more, and the local Chamber of Commerce sounds like a good place to start. Guess I gotta buy some new jeans, t-shirts, suspenders and work boots so's I can look more presentable! (j/k!) BTW, I quit my day job 4 years ago.

Paco, if you know what the basic design looks like, you should be able to come up with an ESTIMATE quickly enough based on different ways of making the same sign. I NEVER give quotes on anything without knowing what is involved. This is how pricing on the sq. ft. can get you in trouble if you don't know what the client wants and you're just tossing out quotes. I learned that lesson the hard way. I'm STILL learning lessons, but I only had to learn that one once. And no, you can't charge for quotes! LOL! ;-)

Joe, how much for a shine with no CNC order?

"Also I'm gonna make big horses and bears, and when I get really good at it, I'll doem or less. The more I make, the less I'm gonna charge. No one else will be able to compete with me. No Sir,"
It's not often people take so much umbrage on this website about others opinions!
In my case developing techniques and methods to improve my product whilst decreasing the costs have greatly expanded my market and profits.
And I guess this could be true in most areas of Shopbot use.
I can understand the concern of anyone who has spent long careers training and working in any branch of illustration, including sinage, now that computers do 90% of the job for you.
This is, however, the same in a large number of professions.
The aerial survey business I entered in 1960, which required high levels of skill and training, is now entirely done by satellite navigation, computers and digital cameras. And the photogrametric profession, the people who create the maps, is also now computed entirely. And draughtsman no longer exist in this profession.
Look forwards, chaps, not backwards!

.....................Mike

Computers have changed everything. Anyone that denies that is simply in denial. If you're not interested in what a computer can do for you, you wouldn't even be reading this. True? No? Think about it! I can say with certainty and no shame whatsoever that computers have changed my life forever.

On the other hand, some things never change. In the sign business, for instance, a person needs an eye and sense for good design, balance, color schemes and so forth to set your work apart and design/produce great signs. Any hacker nowadays with a router or a plotter and some computer knowledge can produce a sign of some sorts, but still not get the job done in the end. Right, Joe?

I could be wrong, but I think what Joe is trying to tell us all, as an older veteran, is, "Be the BEST at what you do. Cut no corners. Take the extra steps. Always be eager to learn something and educate yourself, no matter HOW experienced you are. Be proud of your work, but not proud of yourself. Work hard and smart and get paid accordingly."

Right, Joe? No?

"what Joe is trying to tell us all, as an older veteran"

I like that "older" part. Is Joe really that old, or does he just have a lot of miles on him?

My advice: whenever Joe says something - listen very carefully.

Amen.
Words to the wise.
Doug

Hi Mike,
It must be past Gerald's bedtime or he would surely have some innovative marketing suggestions for your illustrated sinage .John

This thread started with a question that seemed to be asking how to charge for materials, but with a title that gave much larger scope for various answers.
On the way it took many paths.

I have paraphrased the following from other articles on the web.

I believe one question asked more than any other with people new to marketing a product or service is how to work out what to charge for their labour. There are several ways to do this. We can see if there are guidelines from within the industry We can charge the 'going rate'. Or we can make a good guess at what the client is willing to pay and charge that. There are others, but these are the typical methods.
Guidelines from within the industry are a good starting point of you feel that your business fits in the mould. The 'going rate' is called that because if you're not careful with it, you're going out of business. Unless you happen to be clairvoyant, guessing what you think the client will pay is just plain bad business. The idea isn't to figure out what the client will spend. It's figuring out whether you can make any money on the project.
A better way to approach the problem is figuring out your bottomline: where you need to be to really make money. Go below this point and you're paying your client for the honor of working for them. The more work you take on at the wrong rate, the deeper the hole you'll dig for yourself. You can actually 'sell' yourself right out of business with a rate that's too low. Go too high and you'll price yourself out of the market. Once you know your true costs of doing business, you can make sensible decisions.
The place to start is you. What's your target salary? And let's be realistic here. If you have employees, you'll need to add up all the salaries. On top of that, you'll need to figure in other associated costs like taxes, insurance, etc.It is said a safe figure is 25-30%. The sums looks like this:
•

I've been accused of being a "low-ball scum sucking bottom dweller" in here already.

It's "cometition", folks. That's all.

Mark
You've also been accused of being a ShopBot novice, although you have owned and operated a Shopbot for 4 years, and have a background as a pencil and paper designer, which seems to have been overlooked in a number of posts.


This is your thread, and you are the one to take it where you wish, but it did split from a pure pricing question to comments on quality, and even integrity. I hope you weren't being refered to as you describe. Such remarks on a Forum such as this would be uncalled for, even down right insulting.
I disagree with many comments made on this Forum, but I try not to insult anyone.

a small aside, when do you sleep?


..............Mike

Mark, I believe you will find an apology to, and your acceptance of, the generic description used as "bottom feeder" so I considered that a closed topic, properly resolved. Just to be sure, nothing personal and no offense intended.

Mike,On your financial overview, I couldn't agree more! The answer always lies in the numbers when one is on the subject of profit. Your overview is the true measurement stick in any business. It just helps sometimes to have the "quick base line" to determine if one is in the "range" of successful operating guidelines or not.
Your hourly base is definately in the range and should be used as the minimum in my opinion. That would never be considered "bottom feeding" but just old fashioned good business judgement.
If you want to see the same logic extended over the highs and lows of the sign business based on the "local market hourly rate or break even" check the 2006 Sign Magazine" pricing guide. It follows Mike's logic exactly and might be useful to establish your "range" based on higher or lower priced market areas in the US.

Mike, there might be room for a USA deal on your horses. Think about that and write me if you have an interest in expanding to the Midwest USA.

PACO, on becoming a BIDDING service, that indeed can take valuable time with potentially no reward. And agree with Mark, No, we don't feel one can charge for a quote.
One suggestion might be to use the terms "Ballpark Pricing for proposal only" which is what we do when there is no final design and there is where a sq ft price is effective in determining what their budget tolerance is. If they (the franchise shop)hasn't done their job to "qualify their buyer" then you're shooting in the dark anyway. The signs we make can range from a low of $50.00/ sq ft to $150.00 before exotic details, hardware, or design embellishments.
What is the customers budget range? Whatever it is, within that range, we can design something or use proper material that will fit but all have features, benefits, and cost implications, so are we wanting a Cadillac, Mercedes,or a Ferrarri? We don't make YUGO's here.

When they want to finalize, we attempt to get a design fee for the work and when necessary offer to credit their price for the design fee on the final invoice to close the deal. How one manages those numbers in terms of the final price is the flexibility to dial in the closing price (charge all, some, or none of the design fee)BUT in the end, the wholesale buyer will quote you to death and abuse your "free service" unless and until you establish that the midline base price is $X.00 and is subject to change based on final design and specifications. At some point they must realize that they need to qualify opportunities and target price budgets if they want to have a win/win deal with you. Now all they do is pass the buck so as long as you take it, you have the hot potato to deal with at your expense.
When they have an order, you'll be able to confirm whatever makes good sense for your success. After all many retail shops double the price anyway so they make as much as you for standing in the middle for their sales and marketing expenses so they do have room to move if they want a win/win situation with their supplier. otherwise its a one way street headed in the wrong direction.