PRSAlpha+

I was wondering if anybody knew if ShopBot was about to release an upgrade to the current PRSAlpha, it's a great machine, but looking at what centroid/acorn is offering - why isn't there an upgrade or even a PRSAlpha+ option to have that on a configured ShopBot from the factory?

I'm to the point where I need something "more" and am looking at all my options, I absolutely love my ShopBot and would love to stay with them for my full sheet system but other than new dust boots and hose carriers, there hasn't been much in the way of further upgrade paths at the higher end of the spectrum for quite a while.

I read through old forums about something is in the works but then I realize that was a few years ago, and each time, nothing seems to materialize.

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Originally Posted by WoodMarvels.com

I was wondering if anybody knew if ShopBot was about to release an upgrade to the current PRSAlpha, it's a great machine, but looking at what centroid/acorn is offering - why isn't there an upgrade or even a PRSAlpha+ option to have that on a configured ShopBot from the factory?

I'm to the point where I need something "more" and am looking at all my options, I absolutely love my ShopBot and would love to stay with them for my full sheet system but other than new dust boots and hose carriers, there hasn't been much in the way of further upgrade paths at the higher end of the spectrum for quite a while.

I read through old forums about something is in the works but then I realize that was a few years ago, and each time, nothing seems to materialize.

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This again?

SB has fallen into the abyss concerning upgrading, or improving their platform.
They are so far behind even the inexpensive hobbyist table top machines, it would require a complete retooling to become competitive, that it wouldn't make sense.
There have been several SB employees claiming there are new improvements coming. This has been for years, and they are still producing the same thing.
Don't hold your breath.
There will be someone from SB here shortly, to reassure you that they are working on something great, and to remain patient, while staying tuned.

I don't think they are as far behind as you think on the price/features for a non-solid frame system that can be brought in on a pickup truck and carried through a front door - I've been looking around at non-Chinese rebranded machines and they pretty much own the market as far as that is concerned. Lots of people like me can't get a forklift in the shop and are one-man operations where the lego-building quality of the ShopBot is a perfect match.

There are lots of little improvements on both the software and hardware side that would really refresh the Alpha series as a whole, all of us know what they are, and I don't understand why this isn't being done, as I'm sure I'm not the only one wanting something incrementally better all around than what's in the currently being offered.

Looking at a completely unrelated business, take a look at what Haas offers on their VF2 online ordering system, the options are VAST, ShopBot is the perfect platform to be able to do the same thing for their industry.

I guess if I was the owner of ShopBot, the first thing I'd do is have a team dedicated to a + model of what they currently have and coming out with an upgrade path from frame rigidity to software improvements, that's completely something that I'd be willing to purchase as a customer even if it added 10-20K to the price but right now, there are few that move the goal post and haven't been any for far to long.

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Originally Posted by WoodMarvels.com

I don't think they are as far behind as you think on the price/features for a non-solid frame system that can be brought in on a pickup truck and carried through a front door - I've been looking around at non-Chinese rebranded machines and they pretty much own the market as far as that is concerned. Lots of people like me can't get a forklift in the shop and are one-man operations where the lego-building quality of the ShopBot is a perfect match.

There are lots of little improvements on both the software and hardware side that would really refresh the Alpha series as a whole, all of us know what they are, and I don't understand why this isn't being done, as I'm sure I'm not the only one wanting something incrementally better all around than what's in the currently being offered.

Looking at a completely unrelated business, take a look at what Haas offers on their VF2 online ordering system, the options are VAST, ShopBot is the perfect platform to be able to do the same thing for their industry.

I guess if I was the owner of ShopBot, the first thing I'd do is have a team dedicated to a + model of what they currently have and coming out with an upgrade path from frame rigidity to software improvements, that's completely something that I'd be willing to purchase as a customer even if it added 10-20K to the price but right now, there are few that move the goal post and haven't been any for far to long.

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There aren't many, that are willing to pay the price (or any additional price increase) for an erector set cnc.
When there are solid, proven machines, made in the US, that are equipped with better systems, and cost less for more machine, people have moved on.
Other manufacturer's support, far exceeds anything SB offers as well.

SB fits in a particular market, and that market has been filled.
SB has become reactive as opposed to proactive.

I believe you should expand your research, and reading past threads, will bring it to light.

If some people don't want to pay for additional upgrades, that's fine, at least make them available for those who do. Want to replace the USB with a network cable? Send is X$, want to have a Maglev for X and Y? Send us your kidney. I'm fine with that.

They have a fantastic platform, it just needs to be expanded - and if you know of other companies that are comparable, please do share - I haven't found anything worthwhile so don't keep it to yourself.

I got a quote from several other manufacturers, nothing compares to what ShopBot offers.

I've read countless threads on this topic and one thing always glares at me. When bringing up the straw dog of the competition, I never read brand name and model numbers. It's easy to say "When there are solid, proven machines, made in the US, that are equipped with better systems, and cost less for more machine" when no examples are named.

So if there are so many great machines, why is it that nobody is willing to actually specify what they are?

I bought my SB specifically because I could fit it into my shop. I've found the machine capable of anything I've asked.

I certainly agree that the Windows 95 looking control program running non-G code is a serious limitation along with the hairy USB interface sending line by line instructions. Seems a bit dated when gigabytes of memory are practically free.

Maybe that's the root of the problem, Shopbot owns the niche it's in and the competition is either DYI that aren't reliable in a production environment for business, junk Chinese imports/rebrands or something like a Shopsabre/nameyourclone that would be a challenge to fit in the front door of a shop.

I have gotten quotes from ShopSabre, yes, you get more machine, but it's a totally different machine and price accordingly, I might as well just jump to a Thermwood and cry once, which I'm also looking at.

This topic does keep coming-up, it's because we care and want to STAY with Shopbot, I love their approach, but without anything to expand into at the higher-end, they are forcing us to look elsewhere.

We aren't talking about a fundamental change in specs, just options that would solve problems and improve rigidity and performance over time.

I don't know why ShopBot doesn't have their own version of Acorn as an upgrade, just rebrand it and support it from the factory then build from there, it would be a leap in capabilities - throw in some hardware upgrades and they have something that I can stay with.

What we are seeing on this forum now is mostly "For Sale" posts.

This shows how ShopBot has not done much to move their machines forward. I've got a PRSAlpha I purchased in 2009. Since then, nothing has been done to make communications more reliable, be able to move the machine faster during jogs (see communications issue), flexibility of the machine (I've done as much as I can to decrease flex), the control software interface, G-Code versus their proprietary code, etc.

They did own this market for many years. They no longer own it.

Just to update everybody, my PRSAlpha is now for sale (I'm near Toronto) and I just bought a Thermwood.

I really wanted to stay with ShopBot, I have nothing but praise for this machine that got me to this point in life and the company itself, but there were no longer any upgrade paths with them moving forward.

If it wasn't for my PRSAlpha, my shop wouldn't have a Thermwood in it in the coming weeks... for what it is, it's a wonderful machine and I'd recommend anybody wanting to start a business to get a ShopBot to get the projects rolling in the door till they upgrade to a more industrial machine.

I'm keeping my ShopBot Desktop though, even after a decade, still runs strong and true and it's how I learned all about CNC machines eons ago.

Jon

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Originally Posted by WoodMarvels.com

I just bought a Thermwood.

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I'd love to know what model you bought and what it set you back. Looks like a huge upgrade to the SB, and the SB isn't even in the same league.

I bought an older used CS40 which I plan to send to Thermwood in a year or two to completely refurbish - you can see the process here:

https://blog.thermwood.com/bid/92113...hed-CNC-Router

It's massive overkill for what I'll be using it for and that's the point, I can grow into the machine and "soon", it will be like a brand new machine at a fraction of the price of a new one... waiting quote for that but my guess is that alone will cost more than a new Shopbot it replaced, in addition to the purchase which cost more than a new Shopbot PRSAlpha with all the options too.

Just comparing the capabilities, it's a whole other world and I can't wait to get it in my shop.

This week will be training by the current owner, then I have to figure out how to get this 9K pound machine in my shop without a forklift.

If it wasn't for ShopBot, this wouldn't have been possible - I just wished they had a dedicated team focused on not only improving the platform but working on the next generation to leapfrog back into competitiveness.

ShopBots will never be a Thermwood, but they can be greatly improved.

Jon

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Originally Posted by WoodMarvels.com

I bought an older used CS40 which I plan to send to Thermwood in a year or two to completely refurbish - you can see the process here:

https://blog.thermwood.com/bid/92113...hed-CNC-Router

It's massive overkill for what I'll be using it for and that's the point, I can grow into the machine and "soon", it will be like a brand new machine at a fraction of the price of a new one... waiting quote for that but my guess is that alone will cost more than a new Shopbot it replaced, in addition to the purchase which cost more than a new Shopbot PRSAlpha with all the options too.

Just comparing the capabilities, it's a whole other world and I can't wait to get it in my shop.

This week will be training by the current owner, then I have to figure out how to get this 9K pound machine in my shop without a forklift.

If it wasn't for ShopBot, this wouldn't have been possible - I just wished they had a dedicated team focused on not only improving the platform but working on the next generation to leapfrog back into competitiveness.

ShopBots will never be a Thermwood, but they can be greatly improved.

Jon

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This is a perfect example of what has happened to, and will continue to happen, SB users.
SB users hit the limitations of SB's capabilities, and there isn't any desire by the company to innovate, or compete, so users move on.
Not all users move to a Thermwood, but if it's in the budget, why not?

Looking in the classis, the asking prices on these used machines are ridiculous.
That isn't to say they hold their value, but that the owners believe they can recoup their loss.
There's a good example just list recently. A machine that's 6 years old, but only used a few times. That doesn't increase it's value, it's
still 6 years old, with no real support. For the asking price of this dinosaur of a machine, there are much better options (some a little more in cost) available.
No, I won't name names, you can do the research, but for a few grand more than the machine mentioned, there is a machine with ATC, Z assist, 4th axis, AL, extended height Z,
Lifetime phone support, and the list goes on. It's a solid welded frame and also includes the computer, monitor, and CAD/CAM software. The machine comes tested and ready to plug in and go to work.
This particular company has a proven track record, with a 80% return on 5 year old machines.

I had hoped SB was going to remain competitive, but without a desire to innovate, they've become stagnant.
Those that have SB's and love them, it's good for them, for now. What happens when SB goes bankrupt?
They are on their own. Either completely upgrade to a new operating/control system on the existing frame, or purchase a new, modern machine.

Good for you, moving to a machine that will serve you well, and also has a proven record.

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Originally Posted by 8Ball

No, I won't name names, you can do the research

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Of course you won't "name names". That's so typical of the straw dog arguments that circulate on the internet. I call this type of complaining "Fact free whining." I suggest posting it in "Truth Social".

Comparing a Thermwood to a SB is silly. That's like comparing a 5x8 trailer to a Mac truck. Totally different machines. If Thermwood and their ilk was all that was available back in 2013, I wouldn't have had a CNC at all.

I do agree that SB could do more to improve their control system. For those already with a SB, there are upgrade paths with more modern control systems available at a very reasonable price, unfortunately, just not from SB themselves.

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Originally Posted by coryatjohn

Of course you won't "name names".

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How would you care for people promoting other brands on your website?
You seem to be the only person left, to defend SB.
If you were actually interested in purchasing a real machine, you would trip over yourself trying to decide on what you could've had.

I agree, Thermwood is a big jump, but they've been around a long time, and will continue to be around a long time. SB... not so much.
Look how many SB machines are for sale, and continue to be for sale. There's one that's been for sale for 6 years. No one is interested in ancient tech.

No. He's not the only one that still supports and defends SB. I get a lot of excellent work out of my machine. I have a PRS Alpha 5 x 10 and I use all of it. AND I mostly do metal. There are potential upgrade machines, but the cost for heavy iron is painful and then the learning curve, the lack of available support... so, to your point that SB is not being terribly innovative right now. I get that. But for a basic, nuts and bolts machine this one really hits 90% of the high points. And if they elect to go a bit higher on the tech scale, I will still be a fan. Would I like a tool changer and an acorn type upgrade? Yeah. Probably so. A little more accuracy? Yes. AM I ( or MOST of the people looking at this type machine) going to pay 80-150K for a machine? Not unless they have a very solid income stream that demands higher throughput and greater accuracy than you can get with a Shopbot. They are really excellent machines- but we have to know what OUR target projects and market are... and make decisions that make good financial sense.

I purchased a used PR for about $2300 in the late 90's (the 1990's) and my PRT in 2001 when Shopbot's advertising offered a full size Cnc for under $5000. I build furniture and have used it to some degree on everything I have built since. Shopbot has always been very supportive of me and extremely helpful when I needed it. If not for Shopbot I probably would not have a Cnc so I am eternally grateful. If I was fifteen years younger I would probably be looking for a new or newer machine and would certainly look at machines besides SB but I would look at SB.

I have been upgrading my machine in the last few years by adding a Phenolic table last year and a Gary Campbell/Scott Wooden Centroid Acorn Control Box in the last few months. My old SB which has been a reliable workhorse for 20 years now acts like an old friend after knee replacement. It is much more accurate and smoother without the washer boarding on curves and seems much more refined but I still call it my Shopbot.

In 45 years in business I've learned that everyone, me included, knows better how to run and improve someone else's business. Hell I could even make Apple or Microsoft great not to mention any of the car companies. I never thought that my Miata was a Ferrari nor my Shopbot a Komo but both serve me well and I love both. Does SB need to improve their machines and control software and hardware? Yes, but I am sure they are aware and I have little idea of what they are developing. Changing the control systems would seem to be a gargantuan effort with all of the legacy machines still out there. SB seems to be still cranking out new machines but if they went out of business tomorrow I would still think of them warmly and fondly. They might even outlive me but then this afternoon is somewhat iffy for me.

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Originally Posted by coryatjohn

Of course you won't "name names". That's so typical of the straw dog arguments that circulate on the internet. I call this type of complaining "Fact free whining." I suggest posting it in "Truth Social".

Comparing a Thermwood to a SB is silly. That's like comparing a 5x8 trailer to a Mac truck. Totally different machines. If Thermwood and their ilk was all that was available back in 2013, I wouldn't have had a CNC at all.

I do agree that SB could do more to improve their control system. For those already with a SB, there are upgrade paths with more modern control systems available at a very reasonable price, unfortunately, just not from SB themselves.

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If you want one option to compare...
This is also a bolt together machine, they have standard and pro versions similar to SB, their machines are expandable to whatever length you want to take them to, there is the option for a prewired control system , or wire yourself, 4hp and 8.7hp spindle options, runs on Mach4 (much more stable), and the company is in the USA.
Look at the reviews on the machines; there are several situated in industrial environments, and used commercially. I personally know people with these machines, and they are accurate and reliable.



Who you ask? Check out Avid.
This is just one option, that's comparable to SB and the portability that SB owners seek to get through doors.

I bought a PR back in 2007 that I used to get a PRS in 2008 have been running that machine since. It has paid for itself and now just keeps making money. I did try Gary's retrofit upgrade with the Acorn but that was a failure as it would not run and had to return it. Gary blamed me that I tripped over the wires and caused the Acorn to not work without errors and even he had problems with it. So I ended up with the old control box that still is working